Talaith Aberffraw - the Royal House of Gwynedd and Wales

[James Frankcom]

The first interview with Evan Vaughan Anwyl (Prince Ieuan) can be found in the Summer 2011 edition of Cambria Magazine. There is a link here: Cambria Magazine Summer 2011 and the article by award winning writer Byron Rogers can be read on pages 30 & 31.

 

[Nice Nofret]

I find it *interesting* that people who live in america since generations identify themselves as "welsh" and are for "welsh"independence from GB; is it that they, as americans cannot bear the idea of being *coloniesed* ...

what would you Americans think of discussing to break up the US and reinstall all the indian tribes, and their right to their country? - Whites colonising America isn't as far away as 12something and this Ruddland-thing.

So yes - what a great idea - give america back to the indians, Alsaska to the Eskimos / Inuit, Australia to the Aboriginies, South Africa to the blacks, and Europe to the Neandertaler (oh wait .. they are no more Neandertaler ... bother...)

 

[Deheubarth]

Modern day claims to Welsh princely titles

There are many flaws to most of what has been posted so far on this site, too much to provide a full response to, but here is some food for thought:

1. The only Welshman to have ruled the whole of Wales was Gruffudd ap Llywelyn in the 11th century, until his defeat by Harold Godwinson. No all-Wales Welsh monarchy has existed since that time, and Gruffudd's claim was not even recognised by all in Wales at the time. Not even Rhodri Mawr ruled all of Wales.

2. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, grandfather of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd changed his style from "Prince of Gwynedd" (he did not use the title of King) to "Prince of Aberffraw and Lord of Snowdon". So, these titles cannot be claimed by anyone who descended from the elder Llywelyn's grandfather Owain Gwynedd, Prince of Gwynedd.

3. Gwynedd made claims to the entirety of Wales and wanted to get the King of England to confirm its right to the homage of the rest of Wales. It could be argued that by putting this argument, the two Llywelyn's thereby operated as if the feudal system of England and almost all of the rest of Europe was valid in Wales.

4. Another ancient kingdom, that of Powys did not agree with Gwynedd's claims and only accepted them under duress - whenever the opportunity existed Powys Wenwynwyn seized back its control and claim to its ancient patrimony.

5. Deheubarth, under its Prince The Lord Rhys, did homage to King Henry on more than one occasion. Rhys took with him his relations the Princes of Maelienydd and Elfael (the family of Elystan Glodrydd). At that time, this therefore signified that they accepted him as their higher Lord and not the Prince of Gwynedd or that of Powys.

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.

7. The Tudor King Henry VII is descended from a marriage between the Tudors and a daughter of The Lord Rhys and his wife Elizabeth of York is descended from one of the daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. As Henry made his way across Wales gathering troops as he went to win his victory and the crown at Bosworth, Wales backed him pretty much to the hilt and saw in him the recovery of the throne of Britain - the "Island of the Mighty" / of the Britons. His triumph was seen as a turning over of the Edwardian conquest, whatever his son then did as part of the merging of Wales with England. He may have been anglicised, but he was a combination of ancient Welsh royal lines. With him many Welsh flocked to London and a new 'British' monarchy was established -to this day it is possible that more people of Welsh descent live in England than Wales.

Thus it is that HM Queen Elizabeth II has the blood of many Welsh Princes and Kings in her, no matter how un-welsh she may appear - the point is that she is the embodiment of the unity of the Kingdom.

8. Owain Glyn Dwr was a scion of the dynasty of Powys, but through marriage (exactly like Henry VII) was also descended from the house of Gwynedd and Deheubarth.

9. If the Princes of Gwynedd had survivors who never lost their titles, then they would have married into many different families over the intervening centuries, and they would (as both Llywelyns did in the past) have adapted the rules or protocols of succession and even have accepted the succession of daughters. The 'nationality' and identity of their heirs would be likely to have become more broadly 'British' than narrowly Welsh.......just as the descendants of the Tudors have.

10. How can Welsh law on succession to a princedom have survived? History shows that the princely families did not follow strict protocols, but operated more of a "Its a knock-out" methodology for succession - he who could knock out his competitors, be they older of younger brothers, cousins or other, would win the crown.

11. Lastly, is it much better to accept Prince Charles and appreciate all that he has done....more than any Prince of Wales since the Edwardian period....to try and do the very best he can to serve Wales; he speaks good Welsh, has the blood of most of the old Royal Dynasties of Wales in his veins. he also has a very fine son who has started his married life not far from his ancestors' Court at Aberffraw on Angelsea.

Surely the very best hope for any sort of restoration of old Welsh Princely titles would be via the current Principality and Prince of Wales; the institution of a Prince of Wales could act as a 'hub' around which older titles and structures could be built up again - Princes of Gwynedd, Deheubarth, Powys, Maelienydd, Elfael and Lords of Merionydd, Senghenydd, Gwerthrynion etc etc.

But there is an obvious and very great problem with this. Who would have a claim that could stand up against challenge - the genealogies do not all agree, as Peter Bartrum showed so clearly in his work. Who is the eldest? If we find the eldest, will that person be suitable to take up an ancient title so long after it was last claimed? And if the eldest isn't suitable, do we give the title to another member of the family, just as the medieval Princes did? And if we did that, would that be according to Welsh law etc.

We cannot bring back Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. It is time to look ahead positively instead of constantly "Worrying the carcase of an old song", as RS Thomas wrote in that well known poem. Rather, we should celebrate the vibrant living bodies that we have around us and stop mourning the past but celebrate the present and what it heralds for the future. We have great history to enjoy and take forward, but should do so joyfully and without regret. 'Wales' is a geographic country and nation, but it is also an identity that stretched well beyond the borders of the Wales on the map, and belongs in the hearts of more millions outside Wales than in. So pride in Wales and its nationalism should be outward looking not stop at the border with England.

I'm sure many may have more to say about this, but for now, if you do not know the poem mentioned above, here it is...in all its prophetic glory - ponder on it and catch its good advice:

Welsh Landscape
by R.S. Thomas

To live in Wales is to be conscious
At dusk of the spilled blood
That went into the making of the wild sky,
Dyeing the immaculate rivers
In all their courses.
It is to be aware,
Above the noisy tractor
And hum of the machine
Of strife in the strung woods,
Vibrant with sped arrows.
You cannot live in the present,
At least not in Wales.
There is the language for instance,
The soft consonants
Strange to the ear.
There are cries in the dark at night
As owls answer the moon,
And thick ambush of shadows,
Hushed at the fields' corners.
There is no present in Wales,
And no future;
There is only the past,
Brittle with relics,
Wind-bitten towers and castles
With sham ghosts;
Mouldering quarries and mines;
And an impotent people,
Sick with inbreeding,
Worrying the carcase of an old song.

 

[Deheubarth]

Prince Charles can only claim the title "Prince of Wales" in terms of the English Statute of Ruddhlan, 1284. This is not recognized under native Welsh law. The Welsh Principality of Gwynedd is arguably the most senior- the only Princes of a briefly united Principality of Wales were from this line, also known as the House of Aberffraw. The Welsh principalities could only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking precedence over illegitimate sons. The last Welsh Prince Dafydd III was of an illegitimate line. The only serious claimants today are Evan Anwyl of Tywyn (I have actually spoken to him), and his son Daffyd, and two cousins, one Roger Anwyl, who is a professor at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, and the other Phillip Anwyl who lives in Sussex, England. Daffyd is married to Caroline Owen of Nantwich. They have a daughter, Carys Anne Anwyl, born in 2008. Daffyd and his family live in Birmingham, or Manchester. The Anwyl family claim descent in the male line from Rhodri II Ap Owain, Prince of Gwynedd 1170-90, uncle of Llewellyn II "the Great", Prince of All Wales 1216-1240, and Prince of Gwynedd from 1195. Llewellyn was the grandfather of Dafydd III, the last prince who was brutally executed by England's King Edward Plantagenet.

Recently, David Wolcott (see www.ancientwalesstudies.org) has challenged the Anwyll family's descent, but Wolcott's arguments have not been independently supported, or verified, so Evan Anwyl's claim still stands. Ultimately, Y-DNA tests will resolve this debate.

Most Welsh respect the Queen, but the same respect does not necessarily extend to her son Charles. The native Welsh royals stand quite a good chance of being restored, if Wales broke away from England. The republican camp in Wales is small, even among Plaid Cymri.

With reference to Domhangairt's words above: "This is not recognized under native Welsh law"

Llywelyn ab Iorwerth inherited only after Welsh law was ignored and Owain Gwynedd's eldest son killed by his brothers and his progeny thereby disinherited. Llywelyn then failed to follow 'Welsh law' when organising his succession when by-passing his 'bastard' son Gruffudd in preference for Dafydd, who was his son by Llywelyn's wife. The problem here is that Dafydd's mother was the illegitimate daughter of King John of England, so it seemed there was a bit of ironic method to inheritance in Gwynedd at the time.

Note re "www.ancientwalesstudies.org" - some of its arguments are backed up by sources that are far less able to be relied on than the magnificent work of Peter Bartrum, which was never expected to be 'gospel' truth, but a recording and combination of the various genealogical sources that he pulled together - no-one has ever come close to matching the monumental scale of Bartrum's work and Ancient Welsh Studies are far too quick to criticise him.

 

[mdavy]

In regard to the post;

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd

Yes i have been told that a line male descendants of Dafydd ap Owain Gwynedd d1203 (deposed by Llywelyn) are alive and well today. I don't know anything about Welsh law, but it would seem that they may have a claim?

 

[Domhangairt]

I sincerely hope there IS another male line descended from the Gwynedd princes, since the Anwyl family is facing extinction in the male line. The latest heirs are all female.

 

[Richardhwinn]

Does anyone have any additional information concerning Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Ty-Mawr, like when did he inherit his claim, spouse and descendants and their spouses?

 

[Domhangairt]

Does anyone have any additional information concerning Evan Vaughan Anwyl of Ty-Mawr, like when did he inherit his claim, spouse and descendants and their spouses?

Hi Richardhwinn. I have personally spoken to Evan Anwyl. Evan Anwyl is married to Helen, daughter of Ronald Jones of Aberdovey. They have a son, David Evan Anwyl and a daughter Sarah Gray Anwyl. David /Daffyd is married to Catherine Owen of Nantwich.

Sadly the House of Abberfraw appears to be approaching extinction in the recorded male line: Daffyd has only one daughter , Carys Anne, born 2008, his cousin Roger is married with no children, the other cousin Philip is married with two daughters. Unless Daffyd/David can produce a son, the ancient royal house of Gwynedd will become extinct in the male line when David dies- unless there are other male Anywyls still living?. There seem to be quite a few people with this name around, but I don't know if these people are related to the royal Anwyls?

Claiming the Welsh Throne in the female line is unrealistic as this violates Welsh native law (refer James Frankcom), and anyway, there are thousands of people who can claim descent from the Welsh princes through the legitimate female line- including myself. Only those men who can claim a recorded male line of descent from the princes of Gwynedd can seriously claim the Welsh Throne. Only the Anywl family of Tywyn can show documented descent from the native Princes of Gwynedd in the male line.

 

[donald h]

the house of aberffraw

i find this very intriguing subject being that i have in my family tree williams salisbury wynn lewellin gruffyd griffith tudors saxons pictures of the queen and my ancestors where i managed to end up with so much history that seems to be alive still in some other line of the family these are my moms grand parents and i have a ton of family who lived and were born in penrhyn castle and conway and many other places all over wales england germany ireland my mothers 12th grand mother was mary wynn 1542 wales as i know part of the aberffraw legacy

 

[Cumbricus]

Fascinating topic. Regards to the first post, I think you're mixing Beli Mawr with Coel Hen, who was the last Dux Britannum. None the less, Coel was High King and ancestor to all the Kings of the Northern Kingdoms. Whether Cunedda was one of his descendants we'll never know, but its likely the Meryfn Frych was in some way related, or so Aberffraw liked to prostrate.

Essentially all descendants of Coel were part of the Coeling which is the collective name of his house, dynasty... or whatever you want to call it. Regardless of where Rhodri and his descendants fit into that most of those Northern Kingdom's and their ruling families were either killed or fled to Gwynedd, ending when the Vikings toppled Alt Cut in about 860 i think. (Could be wrong on the dates, but Alt Cut became Strathclyde which eventually became part of a united Scotland).

Also worthy of note is the whole Prince of Wales, and Wales thing full stop. Wales is an English invention, as is the Principality - at the Merthyr Rising for example when asked, the rioters said "We are Cymry". There was also an individual before Henry Tudor who had a much better claim to being King of the Britons and English in the form of Henry V, whos mother was a descendant of Aberffraw herself, and also in all his grace pardoned Owain Glydwr's son.

As i understand it Briton succession is quite simple: Sons have equal claims, even if they're bastards, women cant inherit but their sons can, but the sons would always of priority over the sons of any female heirs. Your ancestry is highly valued in Brythonic culture, there's no such this as a senior line, you either fall in line, stake your claim and win your crown or die trying. It really came down to who had the biggest army essentially - power wrapped in a veil of legitimate claim - hence why Rhodri's sons turned on eachother.

Anyway, a good way to test (If you're curious) your decent is to get a Y- chromosome test. Essentially you should be at least R1b1b2, and assume you should have few genetic matches in Cymry itself if their decent from the Coeling is to be believed. DNA tends to be different by area and because they came from another part of the country its likely they do stand apart from Cymry genetically - slightly anyway.

I've always thought that its not really inherited anyway, its given by the people who follow, much like what happened with Glyndwr. If it was to be inheritable Aberffraw was subordinate to the men of the north who came later, so by that logic they should have stood aside for the "senior lines" of Coel's descendants (Let that be a sign that it didnt work that way ). If Cymru has its own monarch, it'll be because some one has the political might to swing it with the people and Senedd.

 

[donald h]

abrefraw

i have been doing other sides of my familys tree and have found that i have german royalty the house of wettin hesse hesse castle and hesse darmstadt and i have a grandfather with the the name dewindsor he was the sheriff of windsor castle in england

 

[James Frankcom]

There isn't a "sheriff of Windsor castle". There never has been. A sheriff in England is connected to a shire; it is a "shire reeve". The Sheriff of Nottingham was the chief military officer in the county of Nottinghamshire and was based in the county town; Nottingham. I don't think the Sheriff of Berkshire has been based in Windsor for a very long time (if ever) - the capital of Berkshire was historically Wantage. Your grandfather's surname "de Windsor" is interesting though.

 

[cepe]

i have been doing other sides of my familys tree and have found that i have german royalty the house of wettin hesse hesse castle and hesse darmstadt and i have a grandfather with the the name dewindsor he was the sheriff of windsor castle in england

Richard de Windsor was High Sheriff of Berkshire in 1314 - so not your grandfather. Here is a link to all the High Sheriffs.

High Sheriff of Berkshire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"de Windsor" would normally designate that that is where he came from, not that he had a role in the town. IF you look at the list you will see a lot of "de" XXX
because surnames as we know them didn't exist

 

[James Frankcom]

Weren't the Llewellens the last main rulers of Wales? I know it wasn't totally cohesive but I thought they were the ones who were most often in conflict with England.


MM

"Last Ruler of Wales"

Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (1246-1282) was arguably the last independent prince among the Welsh to reign in any part of Wales. There was his brother Dafydd who followed him for six months in 1282/3 and after that some rebellions (the most significant being Owain Glyndwr from 1400-1409) but otherwise the family to which Llywelyn ap Gruffudd belonged - the House of Aberffraw - were the last rulers of any part of Wales in a legal and literal sense, maintaining their independence from the English Crown throughout most of the 12th and 13th Centuries, some time after the other realms (e.g. Powys and Deheubarth) had yielded.

"Main Ruler of Wales"

As to whether the house of Aberffraw to which Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last belonged were the "main" rulers of Wales, it can be safely said that the House of Aberrffraw had claimed paramountcy over all the other princely houses in Wales from their very foundation. They had a strong legal basis for doing so. Whether they were able to exercise that authority was a different matter. But more than any other dynast they dominated Wales consistently for over seven hundred years.

Their claim of paramountcy derived from the following:

• The House of Aberffraw claimed its ancient ancestry lay with the far older 'House of the North'. This northern house were male line descendants of King Coel the Old (c.350-420AD), the last Roman "Dux" of northern Britannia who appears to have ruled from Eboracum, modern York. They asserted this claim through Merfyn Frych, king of Gwynedd (825-844AD) who was descended in the male line from Llywarch Hen (r.534-608) and before that Coel the Old (Colius Dux Britanniae).
• The House of Aberffraw also claimed its ancestry lay with the 'House of Cunedda' through Essylt, the mother of Merfyn Frych. Essylt was the daughter of King Cynan of Gwynedd - the last of the House of Cunedda. He was a male line descendant of Cunedda Wledig whose right to Wales was through conquest; having driven out the Irish from Wales in c.370AD and ruled most of Wales until his death, c.425).
• The House of Cunedda, ancestors of the House of Aberffraw via Essylt, mother of Merfyn, included King Cadwaladr ap Cadfan (reigned 625-634) and his son King Cadwallon the Blessed (655-682), who apart from being kings of Gwynedd were the last two named "High Kings of Britain".
• Merfyn Frych, who I mentioned previously, was succeeded by his son Rhodri the Great (Rhodri Mawr). Rhodri united almost all of Wales through marriage and conquest. When Rhodri died his great realm was divided out between his three sons; the eldest son, Anarawd, and his heirs became the kings of Gwynedd and were known as the "House of Aberffraw"; the younger sons (Merfyn and Cadell) and their descendants became the kings of Powys and Deheubarth (respectively). During Rhodri Mawr's lifetime he put in place a system whereby his younger sons, Merfyn and Cadell, paid homage to his elder son, Anarawd. The younger sons swore that both they and their successors in Powys and Deheubarth (known as the Houses of Mathrafal and Dinefwr respectively) would likewise owe homage - for ever - to the descendants of Anarawd, the Kings of Gwynedd of House Aberffraw.
• King Anarawd (878-916) was styled "King of the Britons" in the Annals Cambrae in acknowledgement of these circumstances.
• King Gruffydd ap Cynan of Gwynedd (1081-1137), a direct descendant of Anarawd (male line, of course) reinforced the homage of lesser princes among the Welsh
• King Owain ap Gruffydd (1137-1170), his son, also claimed to be "King of the Welsh" and was acknowledged as the foremost prince among the Welsh.
• Prince Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (1195-1240), the grandson of Owain ap Gruffydd and popularly known as Llywelyn the Great, was acknowledged by all the other Welsh princes as their liege-lord at the Council of Aberdyfi in 1216 and recognised as "Prince of Wales" by King Henry III of England in the Treaty of Worcester (1218).
• Prince Dafydd ap Llywelyn (1240-1246) was also acknowledged as Prince of Wales and paramount ruler of Wales (owing fealty to the King of England) during his short reign
• Prince Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (1246-1282), nephew of Dafydd, was also recognised as Prince of Wales by Henry III in the Treaty of Montgomery (1267) and briefly by his successor, Edward I. He received the homage of all the other Welsh rulers in the 1250s and enforced his rule across all 'Waliae Pura' (that is those parts of Wales ruled by Welshmen). However, Llywelyn refused to to swear fealty to Edward I and was eventually overthrown by the armies of England in 1282.

So, when Llywelyn asserted that he was the rightful ruler of Wales he had a lot of precedence to back him up. This was why he would not tolerate the dastardly activities of Gruffydd ap Gwenwynwyn, the Prince of Powys and why the princes of the House of Dinefwr flocked to him. Llywelyn's ancestors had usually been the main rulers of Wales and because of the settlement made between the sons of Rhodri Mawr could claim paramountcy over all the Welsh (except Gwent which remained outside the lands of Rhodri) on a legal basis.

As such, the living heirs of the House of Aberffraw, in the male line, are not only the living heirs of Owain ap Gruffydd, "King of the Welsh" but are also the heirs of Rhodri Mawr and before that of Cadwallon and Coel Hen in an unbroken line stretching back more than sixty generations to the end of the Roman Empire. Heritage indeed.

 

[James Frankcom]

You make some very pertinent points, Deheubarth, and I am inclined to agree with you on many of them. I am an admirer of Prince Charles too, however, I don't see why the title "Prince of Wales" cannot be detached from the English Royal Family after Charles ascends the throne. The eldest son of the English king could be styled Earl of Chester or Duke of York, like it was before Edward I. However one point you made interested me, you said:

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.

Which of the sons of Owain was this? I have heard some talk about descendants of Dafydd ab Owain... do you have any evidence for this (or any other son of Owain)? Which family alive today can claim this heritage and how? More details please!!!

 

[Domhangairt]

Hi James. I am in communication with Evan Anwyl from time to time. It looks as if his family is facing extinction in the male line, since his son Daffyd, has two daughters, his cousin Roger has no children, while the other cousin Philip has two daughters. If Daffyd's wife doesnot give birth to a son, his male family line will end when Daffyd dies. Let's hope for a son.

 

[Cumbricus]

Maybe you should tell him to get a DNA test done then. I'm sure there's many people with an exceeding amount of curiosity as to what it may be and it'd be a shame if we never know and they die out.

Have to disagree about why Aberfraw would have primacy.

1. Descended from the Coeling opens up the can of worms that there's probably others, and at that Merfyn going off to form his own kingdom would suggest he was a junior member of that dynasty.

2. High Kings seemed to have been elective, so who held that title had no baring on their children nor their descendants.

3. Rhodri united *almost* all of Wales. Which isnt all of Wales, and at this time the Britons inhabited Cornwall and the North still. Hes never referred to as High King nor King of the Britons.

4. System Rhodri introduced wasnt a system at all, he tried to copy Charlemagne's succession by splitting his Kingdom between sons with one as overlord- didnt work there either. Even though he tried to keep it all under Anarawd, it doesnt mean any changes he made in governance or succession actually have any baring as he wasn't ruler of anyone outside his own Kingdom (Not High King, and probably not senior descent of the Coeling either)


On the Charles subject though, I prefer to look at it this way: Its a duty to him. One day he'll be King and that duty will be passed to William. I dont think it should be something passed off like a hand me down between living people, its disrespectful of the people and those men who had their heads paraded around London when they were relieved of such duty.

 

[Deheubarth]

You make some very pertinent points, Deheubarth, and I am inclined to agree with you on many of them. I am an admirer of Prince Charles too, however, I don't see why the title "Prince of Wales" cannot be detached from the English Royal Family after Charles ascends the throne. The eldest son of the English king could be styled Earl of Chester or Duke of York, like it was before Edward I. However one point you made interested me, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deheubarth

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd - in fact descendants exist from an elder son than the one the Anwyl's descend from.

Which of the sons of Owain was this? I have heard some talk about descendants of Dafydd ab Owain... do you have any evidence for this (or any other son of Owain)? Which family alive today can claim this heritage and how? More details please!!!

The people who have a stronger and confirmed claim than the Anwyl family are the direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, who had his inheritance taken from him by his younger brothers Rhodri (ancestor of the Anwyls) and Dafydd (ancestor of the Llywelyn princes).

This may be why the Anwyls have been very modest and never trumpeted their claim to seniority.

But there are also the descendants of Dafydd Goch, illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffudd, brother of Llyweyln ap Gruffudd.

But having said this, the fact remains that there have been no clear rules of succession to welsh principalities - Llywelyn the Great gained the throne thanks to his father's two brothers disinheriting their elder brother Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, completely contrary to the will of their father Owain Gwynedd who had made Hywel his heir. Llywelyn the Great passed over his older son Gruffudd to make his son Dafydd heir, whose mother was Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John.

In Wales in the Middle Ages the man who ruled was the one who could take and hold the throne by force of power.

And lastly, the old genealogies may not be entirely correct - who is to say which son was oldest or which descendants were not survived by more senior lines....

What we do know for sure is that the current Prince of Wales descends (thanks to the marriage between Henry Tudor/Henry VII and Elizabeth of York) from Gwladys Ddu daughter of Llywelyn the Great Prince of Gwynedd, and The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of Deheubarth. That seems like a good pedigree. Any to challenge it would enter into a 'family' debate, rather than be between people of unrelated heritage.

When Henry VII became King, he added the red dragon to his arms, closed an old chapter with the realisation of the conclusion of an old prophesy that the crown of Britain would be recovered, and began a new one, which for people in Wales at the time drew a line under the wars with the kings of England as they were Welsh now! Henry's descendant sits on the throne of Britain to this day.

 

[James Frankcom]

I am very interested in these "direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd". The Anwyl family have proven lineage from numerous sources and are in an unbroken patrilineal line of descent - which is essential because under Welsh Law/custom the royal title was normally inherited under a form of agnatic primogeniture with some features of tannistry. Possession was nine-tenths of the law but nevertheless lawful claimant was agnatic, in the male line, and not to or via a woman - unreasonable though that seems!

Can you provide me with a list of descendants from Hywel ab Owain? Presumably they appear in Merrick's Heraldic Visitations?

I have researched Dafydd Goch and his line appears to die out or at least has no documented descendants after about 1600. It's not saying they don't exist just there is no way of telling if they are real and chances are they don't know either.

I don't doubt what you say but please understand my scepticism because anything can be claimed without evidence.

Best regards

j

 

[Cumbricus]

The people who have a stronger and confirmed claim than the Anwyl family are the direct descendants of Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, who had his inheritance taken from him by his younger brothers Rhodri (ancestor of the Anwyls) and Dafydd (ancestor of the Llywelyn princes).

This may be why the Anwyls have been very modest and never trumpeted their claim to seniority.

But there are also the descendants of Dafydd Goch, illegitimate son of Dafydd ap Gruffudd, brother of Llyweyln ap Gruffudd.

But having said this, the fact remains that there have been no clear rules of succession to welsh principalities - Llywelyn the Great gained the throne thanks to his father's two brothers disinheriting their elder brother Hywel ab Owain Gwynedd, completely contrary to the will of their father Owain Gwynedd who had made Hywel his heir. Llywelyn the Great passed over his older son Gruffudd to make his son Dafydd heir, whose mother was Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John.

In Wales in the Middle Ages the man who ruled was the one who could take and hold the throne by force of power.

And lastly, the old genealogies may not be entirely correct - who is to say which son was oldest or which descendants were not survived by more senior lines....

What we do know for sure is that the current Prince of Wales descends (thanks to the marriage between Henry Tudor/Henry VII and Elizabeth of York) from Gwladys Ddu daughter of Llywelyn the Great Prince of Gwynedd, and The Lord Rhys ap Gruffudd, Prince of Deheubarth. That seems like a good pedigree. Any to challenge it would enter into a 'family' debate, rather than be between people of unrelated heritage.

When Henry VII became King, he added the red dragon to his arms, closed an old chapter with the realisation of the conclusion of an old prophesy that the crown of Britain would be recovered, and began a new one, which for people in Wales at the time drew a line under the wars with the kings of England as they were Welsh now! Henry's descendant sits on the throne of Britain to this day.

Can probably tell senior lines from DNA: genetic distance and what not- you can tell if some one came from the same region later and how closely they share an ancestor. Think something that's being forgotten here is that "Wales" is an external term placed on the Brythonic people by Anglo-Saxons. Rhodri and his sons probably still referred to themselves as being Brythonic - and considering their welcoming of the Men Of The North in 900ish - if one of those individuals was from the ruling house (Alt Cut utilized a clan structure) then it stands to reason that they have seniority as leaders of the Brythonic people.

 

[KittoHughes]

Some real difficulties come with exactly what protocol should be or is after well over half a century since the last reigning monarchs.


As far as I can see there are only 3 families of which a descendant would be accepted as a Welsh King:


The Kings of Gywnedd/House of Aberffraw
Owain Glyndwr
Henry Tudor ie the House of Windsor and Status Quo


As someone said earlier, it would be much more likely to be accepted if a descendant from the relatives of Gywnedd or Glyndwr made a claim- even if they had multiple females in the family line- rather than a male line heir of a little known prince from much farther back.


There are no doubt people who will only accept a direct male line heir from a welsh king due to “Welsh Law” or “Welsh custom”. A problem with that is firstly that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find any male line heirs with a genealogy that even nearly stacks up. Secondly in the current situation the Anwyl family are descended in the male line to Owain Gwynedd so you have a quirk of history that the House of Windsor is directly descended from more of the legitimate (ie House of Aberffraw) Kings of Gwynedd than the “true Kings of Wales”. My guess is that would be why they never made a claim; like it or not, Prince Charles has more Welsh royal blood in his veins than they do as he's descended from a daughter of Llewellyn the Great.


I wonder whether it is this fact that makes some Welsh monarchists so insistent that it has to be male line. Because if all you have left are descendants of Llewellyn the Great and if the Windsors are counted amongst them then why change anything?


Also which laws do you follow? The ones Llewellyn the Great put into practice making only sons born in wedlock legitimate? That would make Llewellyn the Last (and his shortly lived successor, his brother Daffyd) a pretender, as would his great nephew Owain Lawgoch.


I doubt you will find anyone who wants a Welsh King who would say that those three are illegitimate pretenders however anyone interprets Welsh law.


Hywel “The Good”'s maybe? They didn't really come into practice until the early mid 900's, he usurped the throne of Gwynedd (admittedly he was the Grandson of Rhodri the Great so it is a bit of a case of Family Wars), conveniently the “laws” of succession he passed legitimised his father's claim to the throne of Seisyllwg and also amazingly made him the only person who could claim the Kingdom of Dyfed. While you might say that he just codified the laws of the time and it was just a coincidence, there might be enough for someone to cast doubt that the law of Hywel should bind on Royal succession. As well, as someone pointed out earlier the laws were forgotten or ridden roughshod over all the time.


Someone on this forum put it best when he described Welsh succession law as a bit like that line from Pirates of the Caribbean; as more like guidelines than rules.


Male line would be preferable but could probably be got round in a similar way that Hywl got round it to claim Dyfed (and multiple others did- not to mention how the whole shebang started).


It would require a more than likely traceable decent from a prince, a lot of front, and a whole lot of luck. Frankly, even then I don't think people would go for it. Most Welsh who would go for a monarch are happy enough with the Winsors. Those who don't want them are more likely to be republicans. It's just a funny quirk of history that for the Welsh- unlike the Irish- most of the most prominent, successful, iconic people in the independence movement have been descended from royalty and have claimed to be Prince/King.


According to Peter C. Bartrum's genealogies of Wales there were descendants of Dafydd ap Gruffydd (last King/Prince of Gwynedd) through Dafydd Goch.


A group of Welsh scholars dismiss the claim but I think rather unfairly. One of the reasons is that the English wanted to kill everyone from the male line so it is impossible they would have overlooked this. The main problem for that hypothesis is that they acknowledge that Dafydd and Llewellyn the Last's brother Rhodri was allowed to live and have children. They also tried to cast huge doubt on Owain Lawgoch being who he said he was, the Wynn claim, the Anwyl one and they even question the accepted genealogy of Owain Glyndwr.


I do seem to remember that someone claimed to be a descendant of David Goch and also from his uncle Dafyed who reigned and was Llewellyn the Great's legal heir according to Bartrum's genealogies. I think there were half a dozen females in between (I could be wrong but I was under the impression that they all married armigers or clergy; not royalty which would have pretty undoubtedly given their sons a strong claim, but maybe enough given that the native royal lines in male decent got a decent chopping by the English), not the eldest child etc- I think they also suggested that they were descended from the brother of Owain Glyndwr and a Cousin of Sir John Wynn who the English courts decided was the de Jure Prince of Gywnedd. Not sure if so many lines makes it more likely or less that it's true. Plus when female decent is included there must be hundreds or thousands with the same bloodline and claim.


Too far back really but the estimate is that 25% of those with 4 welsh grandparents are directly descended from a group of early Welsh kings. Maybe a royal nation doesn't need a reigning monarch?

 

[Cumbricus]

Male line is easier to follow due to the ap's/ab's/map's and the Brythonic obsession with reciting ones history.

I guess if some one claimed it they'd be claiming Wales rather than the bits and bobs than any of those three lines claimed as their own.

There is a fourth line from Tudwal Gloff and its still maintains a male line (I say a, i think there could be numerous). Think that kind of blows it out in the open really. It's very convincing- even if there isnt a direct link its very close and at the very least has ancestral origins in the Hen Ogledd which would fit with Merfyn's own origins.

 

[James Frankcom]

In regard to the post;

6. The Anwyl family are not the only descendants in a direct male line of one of the sons of Owain Gwynedd

Yes i have been told that a line male descendants of Dafydd ap Owain Gwynedd d1203 (deposed by Llywelyn) are alive and well today. I don't know anything about Welsh law, but it would seem that they may have a claim?

The Anwyl of Tywyn article on Wikipedia goes into extraordinary depth and with great care citing half a dozen reputable publications over a millennia to PROVE so far as is possible that the Anwyl of Tywyn family are descendants of Rhodri ab Owain Gwynedd in the male line. It is proved, so far as any records can be trusted; but their rather passive claim has been supported by genealogists over the centuries and as such it is a valid claim and so far as anyone knows - the only valid claim in an exclusively male line.

So you cannot just say that there are exclusively male-line descendants of Dafydd ab Owain alive today without providing some iota of evidence to support it. Its like me saying "there are men on Mars" without providing even the tiniest morsel to back it up.

So - please tell us precisely WHO the living male-line descendants of Dafydd ab Owain Gwynedd are and then we can get to work and go up their tree a little way and see if there is any basis for this claim.

 

[James Frankcom]

You are spot on. I seriously hope that either Dafydd somehow provides a male heir or that there is a cadet line of Anwyls from far earlier that can be demonstrated to exist... people need to get looking.

 

[Domhangairt]

You are spot on. I seriously hope that either Dafydd somehow provides a male heir or that there is a cadet line of Anwyls from far earlier that can be demonstrated to exist... people need to get looking.

A couple of years ago, I engaged in an exchange of emails with Evan Anwyl of Tywyn. Sadly, it looks as if the male line of the House of Abberfraw may be coming to an end. Dafydd is married with two daughters, and the two cousins have no sons- one is childless, and the other also has two daughters. I don't know if there are any other branches of the family. I wonder if Daffydd knows that under British law, it is now possible to arrange the gender of your child artificially through invitro-fertilization (IVF). Under British law this is allowed to "balance" a family where there are only children of one gender. Artificial gender selection is illegal in South Africa where I live. However in Daffydd's case, he may have to take a "second wife" or surrogate, since his wife is in her forties now.

Under Welsh native law- as you correctly pointed out in one of your previous posts-Welsh royal titles an only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking preference over illegitimate sons. This is typically Celtic- the chiefship of Scottish clans also passed down on this basis. The last native Prince of Gwynedd & All Wales, Dafydd III, claimed through the illegitimate male line. Evan Anwyl's family are descended from Rhodri II through the legitimate male line. The formal titles of the Welsh pretender are "Prince of the Crown of Abberfraw and Lord of Snowdon".

 

[Domhangairt]

A couple of years ago, I engaged in an exchange of emails with Evan Anwyl of Tywyn. Sadly, it looks as if the male line of the House of Abberfraw may be coming to an end. Dafydd is married with two daughters, and the two cousins have no sons- one is childless, and the other also has two daughters. I don't know if there are any other branches of the family. I wonder if Daffydd knows that under British law, it is now possible to arrange the gender of your child artificially through invitro-fertilization (IVF). Under British law this is allowed to "balance" a family where there are only children of one gender. Artificial gender selection is illegal in South Africa where I live. However in Daffydd's case, he may have to take a "second wife" or surrogate, since his wife is in her forties now.

Under Welsh native law- as you correctly pointed out in one of your previous posts-Welsh royal titles an only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking preference over illegitimate sons. This is typically Celtic- the chiefship of Scottish clans also passed down on this basis. The last native Prince of Gwynedd & All Wales, Dafydd III, claimed through the illegitimate male line. Evan Anwyl's family are descended from Rhodri II through the legitimate male line. The formal titles of the Welsh pretender are "Prince of the Crown of Abberfraw and Lord of Snowdon".

Correction: "Abberfraw" should read "Aberffraw". Apologies.

 

[Ish]

A couple of years ago, I engaged in an exchange of emails with Evan Anwyl of Tywyn. Sadly, it looks as if the male line of the House of Abberfraw may be coming to an end. Dafydd is married with two daughters, and the two cousins have no sons- one is childless, and the other also has two daughters. I don't know if there are any other branches of the family. I wonder if Daffydd knows that under British law, it is now possible to arrange the gender of your child artificially through invitro-fertilization (IVF). Under British law this is allowed to "balance" a family where there are only children of one gender. Artificial gender selection is illegal in South Africa where I live. However in Daffydd's case, he may have to take a "second wife" or surrogate, since his wife is in her forties now.

Under Welsh native law- as you correctly pointed out in one of your previous posts-Welsh royal titles an only pass through the male line with legitimate sons taking preference over illegitimate sons. This is typically Celtic- the chiefship of Scottish clans also passed down on this basis. The last native Prince of Gwynedd & All Wales, Dafydd III, claimed through the illegitimate male line. Evan Anwyl's family are descended from Rhodri II through the legitimate male line. The formal titles of the Welsh pretender are "Prince of the Crown of Abberfraw and Lord of Snowdon".

I'm going to go with that since the Welsh royal titles haven't existed for some 700 years, artificially selecting the gender of a third child (not to mention having a surrogate or leaving his wife to have a third child at all), this isn't high up on Daffydd's list of concerns.

 

[Domhangairt]

I'm going to go with that since the Welsh royal titles haven't existed for some 700 years, artificially selecting the gender of a third child (not to mention having a surrogate or leaving his wife to have a third child at all), this isn't high up on Daffydd's list of concerns.

In that case his dynasty will become extinct- unless there are other male lines as suggested by previous respondents. I am not aware of these. Dafydd's line is the only surviving documented line as far as I am aware. The others will have to rely on DNA testing to prove their claims. Daffydd should do this as well. Unlike the German dynasties (semi-salic law), there is no case for female line succession in native Welsh royal houses- especially the princes of Gwynedd. Like some of the Irish monarchies, the Welsh royal house will cease to exist once all the surviving male lines have been extinguished. I am sure there are a few illegitimate male lines surviving - these can legally claim under native Welsh law. The Gwynedd princes fathered numerous sons by different women extra-maritally. All of these sons had rights to the Principality of Gwynedd and All Wales- so long as they were acknowledged by their royal father , although legitimate sons had preference. Sometimes, the bastard sons used to fight the legitimate sons for the Throne anyway.

 

[Cumbricus]

Luckily claims can travel through the female line too... otherwise they'd just be descended from some warlord who came from god knows where with no particular claim to anything. Speaking of Merfyn of course. Probably other cases too.

 

[RhysD59]

Luckily claims can travel through the female line too... otherwise they'd just be descended from some warlord who came from god knows where with no particular claim to anything. Speaking of Merfyn of course. Probably other cases too.

Didn't Owain Glyndwr claim to be descended from Llewellyn the Last's uncaptured daughter Catherine?

I'd much rather a royal who was descended from the last true hereditary prince of Wales [Llewellyn the Last] and related to Glyndwr no matter how many female lines it passed through than someone with male line heritage from an earlier king than Llewellyn the great.

Would be like choosing a direct male line heir from queen victoria's father or grandfather rather than the current English queen when her uncle abdicated to marry simpson istm.