Succession and Membership Issues

[yukari]

The traditionalist have actually proposed accepting a son from a maternal line, by all accounts despite having closer female alternatives.

(...)

Okay, this is the first time I heard this. Mind to share your source?
From what I know so far, even among general public, a good portion don't mind to see Aiko on the throne, but not her children (as Aiko is still of paternal line, but her children wouldn't be).

Edit: I just realise something. If the proposed son from a maternal line is the son of former Teru-no-miya Shigeko Naishinnō (the eldest sister of Emperor Akihito), then it means the Higashikuni. She married Higashikuni Morihiro, the then heir of House of Higashikuni (his father was son of Emperor Meiji), one of miyake, so her sons are still Yamato paternal line.

(...)

Because it sure is complicated to find an heir in a now disused branch, so to speak. It's someone who is not prepared for the role, who is unknown to the public and who may not be particularly keen on suddenly becoming the next emperor.

(...)

It’s actually not hard to find the ex-miyake, they are still known (including by IHA). And I’m not talking about the Takeda guy who often talks to the media. In 2006, the strong contender in this adoption scenario is the Higashikuni (and they have enough “stock” of sons of sons of son).

And I don’t think what the panels have in mind is to find some 20s/30s years old man to be the next emperor, but as I mention above, more like to continue House of Hitachi (and maybe Mikasa) and most likely picking the youngest generation of the ex-miyake so they can be “trained” from young to be working royal. And I suspect, one (if not more) of those ex-miyake parents would be willing to “offer” their young son. I mean, their son would be guaranteed to get the best education and future stable job (without having to go through the fierce job-hunting competition). They could think of it as sending their son to a boarding school by scholarship complete with promise of future employment. This kind of practice has been going on in the kabuki family until now.

I honestly can’t see any chance of female emperor in my lifetime. Maybe, female Prime Minister first and more women in the Diet, then they’d finally change the law to allow women on the throne. Back like in the past. (The issue about preserving the Yamato male line would be another debate).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

So I have an Eiffel Tower for sale for anyone who genuinely believe this isn't about gender.

It is entirely about gender for the traditionalists, and I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue the contrary.

It is about the gender of the monarch and the gender of the parent and ancestors from whom that monarch descends from the imperial line. Traditionalists do not want a woman on the throne, nor do they want a man who descends from a maternal imperial line (unless he also has a direct paternal line of imperial descent).

The traditionalist have actually proposed accepting a son from a maternal line, by all accounts despite having closer female alternatives.

Like yukari, I have never heard of this proposal and would appreciate a source. (There are, of course, many Japanese who would accept a son from a maternal line, but most if not all of those individuals would likewise accept a woman on the throne.)

Instead of following the genes, which according to the traditionalists own wish about maintaining the Imperial Line as pure as possible, would be the most logic step.

In the logic of the traditionalists it is the paternal genes and the male imperial line which must be kept pure. The son of Mako and Kei Komuro for example would begin a new male line which carries Kei Komuro's Y-chromosome rather than the Y-chromosome of the previous emperors.

I must confess that I have never heard anyone arguing that descendants of QMII are not "genuine" Glücksburgers. On the contrary in fact.

You will find such arguments on this forum, and on the English version of Wikipedia, whose articles exclude descendants of Queen Margrethe II from the category Glücksburg.

 

[Tilia C.]

Prinz Hitachi is still alive, so in theory he could adopt a male from the ex-miyake in order to pass on the title. But is it technically possible to reinstate the Mikasa title, since the last Prince Mikasa has already passed?

 

[Muhler]

I've added numbers to make it simpler.

It is entirely about gender for the traditionalists, and I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue the contrary.

It is about the gender of the monarch and the gender of the parent and ancestors from whom that monarch descends from the imperial line. Traditionalists do not want a woman on the throne, nor do they want a man who descends from a maternal imperial line (unless he also has a direct paternal line of imperial descent).




Like yukari, I have never heard of this proposal and would appreciate a source. (There are, of course, many Japanese who would accept a son from a maternal line, but most if not all of those individuals would likewise accept a woman on the throne.)
(1)




In the logic of the traditionalists it is the paternal genes and the male imperial line which must be kept pure. The son of Mako and Kei Komuro for example would begin a new male line which carries Kei Komuro's Y-chromosome rather than the Y-chromosome of the previous emperors.
(4)



You will find such arguments on this forum, and on the English version of Wikipedia, whose articles exclude descendants of Queen Margrethe II from the category Glücksburg.

(5)

Okay, this is the first time I heard this. Mind to share your source?
From what I know so far, even among general public, a good portion don't mind to see Aiko on the throne, but not her children (as Aiko is still of paternal line, but her children wouldn't be).
(1)
Edit: I just realise something. If the proposed son from a maternal line is the son of former Teru-no-miya Shigeko Naishinnō (the eldest sister of Emperor Akihito), then it means the Higashikuni. She married Higashikuni Morihiro, the then heir of House of Higashikuni (his father was son of Emperor Meiji), one of miyake, so her sons are still Yamato paternal line.
(2)


It’s actually not hard to find the ex-miyake, they are still known (including by IHA). And I’m not talking about the Takeda guy who often talks to the media. In 2006, the strong contender in this adoption scenario is the Higashikuni (and they have enough “stock” of sons of sons of son).

And I don’t think what the panels have in mind is to find some 20s/30s years old man to be the next emperor, but as I mention above, more like to continue House of Hitachi (and maybe Mikasa) and most likely picking the youngest generation of the ex-miyake so they can be “trained” from young to be working royal. And I suspect, one (if not more) of those ex-miyake parents would be willing to “offer” their young son. I mean, their son would be guaranteed to get the best education and future stable job (without having to go through the fierce job-hunting competition). They could think of it as sending their son to a boarding school by scholarship complete with promise of future employment. This kind of practice has been going on in the kabuki family until now.
(3)

I honestly can’t see any chance of female emperor in my lifetime. Maybe, female Prime Minister first and more women in the Diet, then they’d finally change the law to allow women on the throne. Back like in the past. (The issue about preserving the Yamato male line would be another debate).

(1) I'll see if I can dig up the source.
I remember it clearly, because I thought the idea was so wall-bangingly silly. Almost as silly as the concubine-idea.
IIRC he who proposed the idea was a scholar.

(2)Exactly.

(4) I'm far from being an expert in genetics, but I really find this perplexing!
Two things:
Logic says that Aiko carry half her father's genes, right? If she has children they will carry a quarter of the Emperor Naruhito's genes, right? Short of cloning the Emperor, that is about as close as you can possibly get to the current male line.
Two: Y and X chromosomes. The human race and it's movements are traced through the maternal lines, right back to Africa. So unless I've misunderstood something it's the maternal line that matters in regards to keeping a family line pure.

(3) Yes, that would be the most logic approach. When there are no other alternatives, that is. I.e. the current Emperor has no children.
This approach, when there are daughters around, will turn Japan into an elective monarchy - elected by whom? Who decides to pick what child? Under which criteria? Answerable to whom?
The argument being: We have this sacred bloodline, unbroken right from the mists of dawn - that is except when we choose to change it...
Doesn't that go against the core of the traditionalists views on the monarchy as an institution?
It's preserving by breaking. - A contradiction in itself.

It would certainly be possible. It shouldn't be that difficult to find ambitious parents who are willing to give up a son or two to the court.
Ambitious persons have a tendency to be meddlesome. So that's another challenge to face.
There is also another challenge: How will the public react to a de facto unknown "son" suddenly being the heir, when there is a perfectly healthy daughter around. It's hardly the best start, I'd say!

(5) No need to post links, the floorboards will only be damaged from me burying my toes into them. ?
I cannot recall any such argument discussed here in DK. I think it would be laughed to death.

- That there isn't a larger outcry by the Japanese public towards the proposals of the traditionalists, suggest to me that the Japanese monarchy is largely irrelevant to the general public and may need a major overhaul in order not to become irrelevant in earnest.

 

[yukari]

Prinz Hitachi is still alive, so in theory he could adopt a male from the ex-miyake in order to pass on the title. But is it technically possible to reinstate the Mikasa title, since the last Prince Mikasa has already passed?

In the past, because women become part of the husband family after marriage, the widows can do the adoption. One example I can think of is the Konoe clan. In 1956, when the eldest son of Prime Minister Konoe Fumimaro, Fumitaka, died without a legitimate male heir, Fumitaka's wife subsequently adopted his nephew Tadateru as their heir and succeeded as the head of Konoe clan after Fumimaro. But in this case, they didn't care about paternal line since Tadateru was son of Fumitaka's sister, his patrilineal line was Hosokawa. Then again, this was not the first time the Konoe adopted son from other clan to be the heir. The previous one was Konoe Nobuhiro, born the fourth son of Emperor Go-Yōzei, and became heir of the Konoe clan via adoption-son-in-law.

Note: Konoe clan was one of the Five Regent Houses, 5 noble clans who monopolised imperial court from 12th century to 19th century, and had "provided" candidate of empress consort. Many empress consort were Konoe.

As for example of paternal line, there's Tokugawa Iemochi, but I'm not sure whether he'd been adopted by Iesada on his death bed or by Tensho-in right after Iesada's death.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Edit: I just realise something. If the proposed son from a maternal line is the son of former Teru-no-miya Shigeko Naishinnō (the eldest sister of Emperor Akihito), then it means the Higashikuni. She married Higashikuni Morihiro, the then heir of House of Higashikuni (his father was son of Emperor Meiji), one of miyake, so her sons are still Yamato paternal line.
(2)

(2)Exactly.

I see. Shigeko's sons are actually an instance of the "pure" paternal descent which traditionalists view as the only acceptable option.

When he married Princess Shigeko, Prince Morihiro of Higashikuni belonged to a cadet branch of the Imperial Family which shares a very distant common ancestor in the direct male line with the present members of the Imperial Family. As with the other imperial branch families, the Higashikunis were required to abandon their membership of the Imperial Family in 1947.

Traditionalists would accept the sons and male-line descendants of Shigeko and Morihiro, but it would be on the grounds of their imperial descent in paternal line from Morihiro. It is surely seen as a bonus that they are also close relations of the current imperial family through Shigeko, but the paternal line is the one that is non-negotiable in the minds of the traditionalists. For that reason, you will not find them proposing the descendants of Akihito's other sisters, as these women married into other families.

(3) Yes, that would be the most logic approach. When there are no other alternatives, that is. I.e. the current Emperor has no children.
This approach, when there are daughters around, will turn Japan into an elective monarchy - elected by whom? Who decides to pick what child? Under which criteria? Answerable to whom?
The argument being: We have this sacred bloodline, unbroken right from the mists of dawn - that is except when we choose to change it...
Doesn't that go against the core of the traditionalists views on the monarchy as an institution?
It's preserving by breaking. - A contradiction in itself.

In all fairness to the traditionalists, if Hisahito never produces a son and none of the unmarried princesses proceed to marry and have a son by a male member of one of the former imperial branch families, tradition will need to be broken one way or another. Accepting an heir whose imperial blood is found only on his/her mother's side, accepting an heir who was born as a commoner and adopted or appointed into the imperial family, or (very unlikely) abolishing the monarchy would all break with tradition.

(5) No need to post links, the floorboards will only be damaged from me burying my toes into them. ?
I cannot recall any such argument discussed here in DK. I think it would be laughed to death.

I am glad to hear it. ?

- That there isn't a larger outcry by the Japanese public towards the proposals of the traditionalists, suggest to me that the Japanese monarchy is largely irrelevant to the general public and may need a major overhaul in order not to become irrelevant in earnest.

I think that is one of the factors, another being that while the traditionalists' proposals are unpopular in the polls, they are also not seen as outrageous. It is worth recalling that even in Western European countries which are viewed as advanced regarding women's rights in comparison to Japan, there is little outcry at the fact that titles, estates, and the headship of families and family firms normally continue to be passed down in male line.

 

[Prisma]

Japan Panel Opposes Changing Line of Imperial Succession | Nippon.com

A Japanese government panel expressed opposition Monday to changing the current line of Imperial succession, saying the history and tradition of the system is very significant.

Any big change to the system needs to be considered carefully [...]

The panel called for putting off debates on Imperial succession after Hisahito.

 

[Prisma]

more articles

Panel won’t look at changing rule that only men can be emperor | The Asahi Shimbun

Any discussion of expanding the number of successors to the Chrysanthemum Throne, including proposals to open the way for a woman to become emperor, is off the table for now.

[...]

The panel, expected to report its proposals to the Diet in autumn after the Lower House election, refrained from delving into whether to expand the eligibility of potential heirs to the throne to avoid having to deal with multiple issues that doing so might also require it to address.

“If the panel goes into it, it will inevitably have to discuss the issues of allowing women and males of the female line to become the emperor,” a senior government official said. “Such issues will be too heavy to tackle at this stage.”

Instead, the panel’s debate will center on two issues: allowing female imperial family members to keep their royal status even after marrying commoners and allowing men from the former branches of the imperial family to regain imperial status through adoption by the imperial family.

The panel, headed by Atsushi Seike, a former president of Keio University, has held five hearings since April to receive input from 21 experts on imperial succession.

[...]

Panel members exchanged views on how to secure a sufficient number of imperial family members to secure heirs to the throne at a time when Hisahito is the only male member left in the line of succession while maintaining the premise of preserving the current succession order.

The panel is expected to deepen their discussions on allowing female members to keep their imperial status and men from the former imperial branches to restore royal status through adoption by the imperial family.

But as a potential third option to expand the imperial family, the panel will also weigh allowing men from the former imperial branches to become members of the imperial family through law, in addition to adoption.

[...]

A senior official with the prime minister’s office said the panel will need time to fully debate the issue “in a quiet environment” and “avoid verbal sparring.”

Panel to resume discussions on Imperial succession | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

[...]

The panel will restart their discussions on how to ensure stable Imperial succession after research and studies are completed by secretariat officials.

The panel says what to do with Imperial succession after Prince Hisahito's reign as Emperor should be considered in the future after taking into account circumstances, such as his age and marital status.

 

[yukari]

Not surprising, almost expected in fact (it's so predictable).

(...)
This approach, when there are daughters around, will turn Japan into an elective monarchy - elected by whom? Who decides to pick what child? Under which criteria? Answerable to whom?
The argument being: We have this sacred bloodline, unbroken right from the mists of dawn - that is except when we choose to change it...
Doesn't that go against the core of the traditionalists views on the monarchy as an institution?
It's preserving by breaking. - A contradiction in itself.

(...)

Well, the fixed line of succession based on birth order (as common in Europe) is actually quite new (tradition) in Japan.

In the first place, the purpose of cadet branches were to provide candidates to be selected as successor when the main branch failed to produce an heir. In fact, the current Imperial line come from this process through Emperor Kōkaku.

Kōkaku was member of Kan'in-no-miya and became emperor when Go-Momozono was dying without an heir. He wasn’t even the first born, he was a younger son of Sukehito-shinnō, the 2nd head of the Kan'in-no-miya imperial collateral branch (the first born son later became the 3rd Prince Kan’in). He got the support of the retired (female) Emperor Go-Sakuramachi (and also the emperor’s advisors) so he’s been adopted by the dying emperor in his deathbed to be his heir. To solidify his position, he later married the only daughter of Go-Momozono.

In the context of the current dynasty, it’s like Naruhito adopted one of the Higashikuni boy to be the next emperor after him (when later married Aiko). And it happened because Prince Akishino, Prince Hitachi, Prince Mikasa, Prince Chichibu, and Prince Takamatsu had been sent to monastery to be a monk when they reached adulthood. (In Kōkaku’s case, his predecessors Emperor Go-Momozono, Emperor Momozono and Emperor Sakuramachi didn’t have other adult sons, but Emperor Nakamikado had at least 4 other sons who survived infancy other than Sakuramachi but they were sent to the priesthood. In fact, as younger son, Kōkaku was also supposed to go into the priesthood at the Shugoin Temple).

And it didn’t only happened in the Imperial family. I mention about Tokugawa Iemochi in my previous comment. If the IF has shinnōke/miyake, the Tokugawa has gosankyo (formerly was gosanke). Iemochi was not the only candidate to succeed Iesada, other candidate was Tokugawa Yoshinobu who was nominated by the Hitotsubashi branch (one of the gosankyo). Yoshinobu himself was not a son of Hitotsubashi but he actually came from the Mito branch but later being adopted by the Hitotsubashi to be raised as shōgun candidate. (as we know, in the end he became the last Tokugawa shōgun).

So in modern era, who would do the selection and under what criteria? Well, there’s the government, IHA, other IF members and their advisors, or create panel/team of expert who could decide.

 

[Heavs]

The panel says what to do with Imperial succession after Prince Hisahito's reign as Emperor should be considered in the future after taking into account circumstances, such as his age and marital status.

This part sounds like they're hoping that he gets married fairly young and has at least two sons. Which is understandable but it doesn't solve the problem of the dynasty currently hinging one teenage boy. And if they put it of 20 years then they might be in the same circumstances that caused him to be born, except more urgent.

It does seem as those Princesses retaining some sort of status is more likely to happen which at least gives his sisters and cousins the option of officially helping out.

 

[yukari]

This part sounds like they're hoping that he gets married fairly young and has at least two sons. Which is understandable but it doesn't solve the problem of the dynasty currently hinging one teenage boy. And if they put it of 20 years then they might be in the same circumstances that caused him to be born, except more urgent.

It does seem as those Princesses retaining some sort of status is more likely to happen which at least gives his sisters and cousins the option of officially helping out.

Or they might think that The Emperor could reign for another 30 years and by that time, Hisahito would have 3 sons already so the change ended up to be unnecessary. Which possible even if he follows his father's footstep: marry when he's 25 and start trying for baby within the first year of marriage (and he'll be 25 years old in 10 years and it's normal age to marry).

And the Princesses retaining their position after marriage will not solve the survival of the dynasty as long as they still stick with the paternal line (it'll still rest on Hisahito shoulder alone). Then again, the Imperial Household Law doesn't exactly forbid IVF gender selection, does it? The public just doesn't need to know (because I seriously believe IHA is capable of it).

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Or they might think that The Emperor could reign for another 30 years and by that time, Hisahito would have 3 sons already so the change ended up to be unnecessary. Which possible even if he follows his father's footstep: marry when he's 25 and start trying for baby within the first year of marriage (and he'll be 25 years old in 10 years and it's normal age to marry).

And the Princesses retaining their position after marriage will not solve the survival of the dynasty as long as they still stick with the paternal line (it'll still rest on Hisahito shoulder alone). Then again, the Imperial Household Law doesn't exactly forbid IVF gender selection, doesn't it? The public just doesn't need to know (because I seriously believe IHA is capable of it).

Weren't there rumours that the current Crown Prince Couple used IVF gender selection, and it was all hushed up? I think this is the very reason why these debates conclude with "do nothing" or "wait and see". IVF gender selection is becoming less and less of a taboo....

 

[Blog Real]

I also believe that Mako, Kako and Aiko will have some official role even after they get married. Hisahito won't be able to do everything by himself when his parents and uncles are older.

 

[Prisma]

Panel mulls imperial status for females but not commoner husbands - Kyodo News

A panel of experts studying the issue of allowing female members of Japan's imperial family to retain their status after marrying commoners is considering not granting such status to their husbands and children, government sources said Friday.

The possibility has been raised as controversy over the planned marriage between Princess Mako, a niece of Emperor Naruhito, and commoner Kei Komuro, continues to simmer. Some members of the panel have indicated their opposition to granting imperial status to Komuro, who recently graduated from a law school in New York.

[...]

The advisory panel on imperial succession, chaired by former Keio University President Atsushi Seike, has been discussing whether to allow female members to remain in the royal family after marriage by establishing their own imperial branches.

[...]

According to minutes of the panel's meeting on July 9, all six members agreed in principle that imperial status should not be granted to the spouses and children of female imperial members for the time being.

"In terms of public sentiment, there are high hurdles (to implement it)," one of the members said, apparently referring to the issue related to Komuro.

[...]

The panel said in an interim report last month that its members agreed on maintaining the current order of succession.

It also said the results of the debate will be organized into two key points -- changing the current rule that forces female members who marry commoners to abandon their imperial status and enabling the adoption of male heirs from former branches of the imperial family.

Based on the panel's discussion, the government is expected to present its conclusion to parliament by this fall.

I don't think anyone expected husbands or children of princesses to get Imperial status...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Panel mulls imperial status for females but not commoner husbands - Kyodo News

I don't think anyone expected husbands or children of princesses to get Imperial status...

Does anyone expect princesses to get to retain imperial status after marriage? It would be a surprise to me.

As many readers of this forum are likely to be most accustomed to the ways of European royalty, it seems appropriate to reiterate: In the modern Japanese monarchy, one spouse remaining a member of the imperial family while the other remains a commoner would be a radical break with tradition. This option was not even raised by the parliamentary commission in 2004, which discussed a spectrum of options including restoring former patrilineal cadet branches and adopting a gender-neutral imperial house law. The parliamentary commission in 2011 raised the option only later in the debates in an effort to compromise after it became apparent that there was strong opposition to female cadet branches.

It is another example of traditionalists preserving male-line succession at the cost of breaking other traditions.

 

[Somebody]

Panel mulls imperial status for females but not commoner husbands - Kyodo News

I don't think anyone expected husbands or children of princesses to get Imperial status...

How are they going to solve the issue of succession without giving children of princesses imperial status (and rights to the throne). Or is their intention not to solve that issue but only the availability of princesses for imperial duties for the next few decades while still running the risk of not having any heir?

 

[Prisma]

How are they going to solve the issue of succession without giving children of princesses imperial status (and rights to the throne). Or is their intention not to solve that issue but only the availability of princesses for imperial duties for the next few decades while still running the risk of not having any heir?

Correct, they're not aiming to solve succession right now and yes, princesses are needed for public duties. A few months ago, someone tweeted (I'm paraphrasing) "good enough to work, not good enough to inherit" about the princesses. Yep

The government will wait and hope Prince Hisahito has son(s). If he doesn't, then that's a future government's problem to solve. The 2017 legislation enabling Emperor Akihito's abdication included a clause (?) that the government look into stable succession/shrinking Imperial family but didn't require specific actions or timeline. IMO this panel simply satisfies that request. Check.

 

[Heavs]

Does anyone expect princesses to get to retain imperial status after marriage? It would be a surprise to me.

I would be a bit surprised if it actually happens but it seems they have realised that Hisahito will need support from his sisters and cousins even if the solution to the actual succession is to wait and hope he marries early and is lucky enough to have several sons.

The idea of having princesses retain Imperial or semi Imperial status enough status to work has lasted longer than either including them in the LOS or potentially including their sons in the recent debates.

 

[Prisma]

EDITORIAL: Imperial family system needs popular support to survive | The Asahi Shimbun

[...]

But [the report] acknowledged the urgency of securing a sufficient number of imperial family members and proposed three measures:

(1) Allow female imperial family members to keep their imperial status even after marrying commoners.

(2) Allow men of the male line from the former branches of the imperial family to regain imperial status through adoption by the imperial family.

(3) If these measures prove insufficient, enable men of the male line from the former branches of the imperial family to become imperial family members by law.

[...]

However, proposal No. 3 is tantamount to reviving the imperial family branches that were stripped of their imperial status as part of postwar reforms.

The members of the branches had split from the imperial family proper 600 years ago and have lived as commoners since the end of World War II.

To suddenly bring them back into the imperial family fold not only clashes with the public consciousness but also runs counter to the traditional nature of the imperial family system.

Some constitutional scholars told the panel’s hearing that the move would violate the Constitution, which bans discrimination by family origin.

The same problem is inherent in proposal No. 2.

No individual--a male to be adopted, his parents and imperial family members who adopt him--should ever be forced into an adoption arrangement.

The question also remains as to how such an adoption can be reconciled with the current system that does not grant freedom of choice in the ascension to, or abdication from, the throne.

These proposals stem from the belief that imperial succession must forever remain limited to men of the male line of the imperial family.

So long as this remains the case, no one in the imperial family, including the potential partner of young Prince Hisahito, will ever be free of the shackles of a male heir.

Tradition should be respected. But what tradition is so important if it is to be upheld at the price of violating human rights and possibly even the Constitution?

How much support can such a tradition win from the Japanese people today and in the future? Everyone needs to think really hard.

Even proposal No. 1, which may be the easiest to accept, cannot be enforced against the will of the women concerned.

Women born into the imperial family, raised on the premise that they will become commoners upon marriage, have planned their lives accordingly.

[...]

 

[Muhler]

Exactly.

You can't just drag people in from the street, so to speak, and make them royal.

Especially as the obvious solution is right at hand: Use the active females that are already there within the Imperial Family.

So we are back to the main problem: That influential conservatives simply will not allow a woman on the throne.

If it wasn't so idiotic, it would be hilarious.

 

[Prisma]

On August 27th, the government assigned Shigetaka Yamasaki to the newly established position of General Manager of Imperial Family Liaison and Coordination, responsible for planning and comprehensive coordination regarding stable succession.

Yamasaki will retire as Cabinet Office Administrative Vice Minister on September 1st. He previously headed the 26-member secretariat that oversaw the 2019 abdication and accession.

Source: Sankei

Jiji published an interview with Yamasaki on August 29. Warning: Google translation is weird. I tried cleaning it up.

When prompted about the expert panel's 2 proposals to secure the number of imperial families:

Y - When Prince Hisahito becomes emperor, [we] flattened the debate about the need for a supporting family. It's a well thought out idea.

Is the idea that the female members remain in the imperial family after marriage different from the "female palace" (female miyake/branch)?

Y - There is no definition of "female miyake". Princess Kazu, the younger sister of Emperor Komei and married to Tokugawa Iemochi, was not Tokugawa Kazu-no-miya, but remained the Naishinnō. Whether or not it is called the Miyake is not important in the current debate.

Are you keeping in mind Princess Mako whose engagement has been decided?

Y - This is an institutional and logical discussion, not on the premise of each person's proper noun.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

On August 27th, the government assigned Shigetaka Yamasaki to the newly established position of General Manager of Imperial Family Liaison and Coordination, responsible for planning and comprehensive coordination regarding stable succession.

Yamasaki will retire as Cabinet Office Administrative Vice Minister on September 1st. He previously headed the 26-member secretariat that oversaw the 2019 abdication and accession.

Source: Sankei

I don't quite follow in regards to the responsibilities of or need for his position. Aren't the discussions expected to be wrapped up in the near future?

Jiji published an interview with Yamasaki on August 29. Warning: Google translation is weird. I tried cleaning it up.

When prompted about the expert panel's 2 proposals to secure the number of imperial families:

Y - When Prince Hisahito becomes emperor, [we] flattened the debate about the need for a supporting family. It's a well thought out idea.

Is the idea that the female members remain in the imperial family after marriage different from the "female palace" (female miyake/branch)?

Y - There is no definition of "female miyake". Princess Kazu, the younger sister of Emperor Komei and married to Tokugawa Iemochi, was not Tokugawa Kazu-no-miya, but remained the Naishinnō. Whether or not it is called the Miyake is not important in the current debate.

Are you keeping in mind Princess Mako whose engagement has been decided?

Y - This is an institutional and logical discussion, not on the premise of each person's proper noun.

Thank you for the paraphrase or translation!

Would a different name than "miyake" paint the proposal as more tolerable to some?

I fully agree with the government that the discussion ought to be about the institution rather than about Kei Komuro. If Mr. Komuro truly is unacceptable to become a member of the imperial family, that decision ought to be formally taken by the government, not social media and gossip magazines, with an official announcement that Mako will leave the imperial family on marriage to Kei regardless of the outcome of institutional discussions. As things stand, support for the current institutional rules is an excuse to avoid confronting the issue of Mako's engagement - and Mako's engagement to Kei is an excuse to avoid recognizing the legitimate arguments in support of change.

 

[Ista]

I find it interesting that Shigetaka Yamasaki chose to use Princess Kazu as an example, because her position, life, and influence are not at all representative of what a modern member of the Imperial family would be dealing with. It was a unique time period with unique circumstances, so I'm very curious about what parallels he has in mind when he makes that comparison.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I find it interesting that Shigetaka Yamasaki chose to use Princess Kazu as an example, because her position, life, and influence are not at all representative of what a modern member of the Imperial family would be dealing with. It was a unique time period with unique circumstances, so I'm very curious about what parallels he has in mind when he makes that comparison.

Excellent question. Are there any theories on what message Mr. Yamasaki, or the interviewer, may have been sending with that question and answer?

 

[Prisma]

I don't quite follow in regards to the responsibilities of or need for his position. Aren't the discussions expected to be wrapped up in the near future?

The panel is wrapping up discussions so I assume Mr. Yamasaki will be leading the effort to get the panel's recommendations into legislation and possibly wrangling with the various factions to get it passed.

Plan emerges to preserve imperial family by retaining married women - Japan Today

A plan has emerged within the Japanese government to enable female members of the imperial family to keep their royal status even if they marry a commoner, sources with knowledge of the matter said Sunday, thus maintaining their branches of the family.

[...]

The plan floated within the government intends to keep the branch numbers unchanged by retaining married female members or through the adoption of male heirs from former branches of the imperial family who abandoned their status in 1947, according to the sources.

That means Princess Aiko, 19, the only child of Emperor Naruhito, 61, and Princess Kako, 26, Princess Mako's sister and the other daughter of the emperor's brother Crown Prince Fumihito, 55, would likely remain in the imperial household even after marriage.

The plan also contemplates maintaining two other imperial family branches by allowing princesses to retain their status.

The aim of keeping the current branches is to create an environment in which the imperial family can support Prince Hisahito.

The government says it would seek to make sure the will of female members will be fully respected under the plan and carefully study its feasibility, the sources added.

[...]

The branch led by Emperor Naruhito's uncle Prince Hitachi, 85, third in line to the throne, would explore the adoption of male heirs from the 11 now-abolished collateral branches who share with the imperial family a common ancestor some 600 years ago as the prince and his wife have no children.

[...]

 

[Heavs]

Interesting. It looks like it wouldn't be retroactive, so no princesses who've already married out would retain their status. That would include Mako, especially since she is not having any formal imperial ceremonies.

From my perspective it seems like a good idea so that Hisahito isn't theoretically an Imperial Family of one in his generation. There was a discussion here a while ago that said some of the princesses may not actually welcome this as they've been brought up with the expectation of working for the family until they become commoners and then beginning a new life and now this throws a huge question mark over that and even more scrutiny over who they marry.

 

[Muhler]

Yes, I suppose it won't make it easier for them to find husbands.

They are going to remain royal while married to a husband who will remain a commoner and have a private career of some sort. - And that in a country and culture where status means a lot! And where no one are equal.
I imagine that can make things a little complicated.

Also, because what is such a royal/commoner family? Neither fowl nor fish.

An arch-conservative (who would incidentally vote for the current government...) may have problems marrying a woman who is officially and decisively well above her husband.
So that means the princesses may be targeted by men who see them as a means for a dramatic social advancement, I imagine.

The princesses may also have problems with their career should they wish to have one. Because while employing a real, official princess may be good for the company, it also means that she in status is way above her colleagues and superiors in a workplace where there is tradition for a strict hierarchy.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The branch led by Emperor Naruhito's uncle Prince Hitachi, 85, third in line to the throne, would explore the adoption of male heirs from the 11 now-abolished collateral branches who share with the imperial family a common ancestor some 600 years ago as the prince and his wife have no children.

This is the first instance of Prince Hitachi being explicitly identified as the potential adopter, isn't it? I wonder if he has been or will be consulted. It is not normal for the apolitical imperial family to be consulted on legislation, but surely the prince should have some say in the matter of who might become his son?

Am I right in assuming the two "plans" are mutually exclusive? If Prince Hitachi were to adopt a young adult man, the addition of that man and his wife to the imperial family would provide two working royals in the generation in between the Crown Prince and Prince Hisahito, which is the same number that retaining Aiko and Kako, without adding their husbands, would accomplish.

The panel is wrapping up discussions so I assume Mr. Yamasaki will be leading the effort to get the panel's recommendations into legislation and possibly wrangling with the various factions to get it passed.

Do you believe then that the government is serious about attempting to pass legislation? Even if it is, couldn't the new prime minister who is scheduled to take over later this month simply shelve the plans?

 

[yukari]

I find it interesting that Shigetaka Yamasaki chose to use Princess Kazu as an example, because her position, life, and influence are not at all representative of what a modern member of the Imperial family would be dealing with. It was a unique time period with unique circumstances, so I'm very curious about what parallels he has in mind when he makes that comparison.

Maybe because she’s the last and known (if not only) princess who married a commoner but remained a naishinnō, since usually a naishinnō would be married off to miyake (if not remained unmarried and became nun). She was even given a choice to return to Kyoto after Iemochi’s death. There were several “princesses” who married commoners (such as the Tokugawa) but they were joō (女王), not naishinnō.

(There’s a case of Princess Yoshiko (daughter of Emperor Reigen) who married Tokugawa Ietsugu (the 7th*shōgun) but he died not long after and at that time she was only one years old so most likely it’s a marriage in name only and she might never leave the palace, thus not a good example of precedent.)

Kazu-no-miya can also be an example (or blanket statement) about “female miyake” or the husband becoming member of the Imperial family. I mean, imagine if it made Iemochi member of imperial family and if their marriage had produced son, he would be the heir of the shogunate and had a claim to the throne? Guaranteed the bakufu would make him the next emperor thus the shogunate smoothly usurping the Imperial family.

And in term of her position, life, and influence, in my opinion compare to the “modern” princess there’s no significant difference. Then it was the shogunate as oppose to PM and the Diet now; the bakufu financed the palace, now it’s the government (both from tax collected from the public/citizen). The palace was basically controlled by the kugyo as it by IHA now. Just like now, back then the princesses had to do some “royal duties” given to them (like participating in ritual). I don’t think in the future, there would be any expectation for the princesses to lead some kind of progressive movement or something.

(...) There was a discussion here a while ago that said some of the princesses may not actually welcome this as they've been brought up with the expectation of working for the family until they become commoners and then beginning a new life and now this throws a huge question mark over that and even more scrutiny over who they marry.

Indeed, this will be the downside for the princesses. Or the alternative, their (prospective) husbands would be “picked” for them. Not necessarily an arranged marriage, but through something like omiai.

This is the first instance of Prince Hitachi being explicitly identified as the potential adopter, isn't it? I wonder if he has been or will be consulted. It is not normal for the apolitical imperial family to be consulted on legislation, but surely the prince should have some say in the matter of who might become his son?

I don’t think he (or the Imperial family in general) would have much say in the adoption. It’s more like about choosing who would be the successor of the Hitachi branch than being the Prince Hitachi's son in traditional (father-son) sense.

 

[Futurist]

Question: Do you think that there will be huge pressure on Prince Hisahito and his future wife to have a giant family in order to resolve any future Japanese succession issues? I'm thinking something like 5+ children here. This would be highly unusual for 21st century Japan, true, but if one is perceived to have a royal duty to do this, well, ...

Quite amazing that Prince Hisahito was the first male born in the Japanese imperial family since his own father Prince Akishino (Fumihito, Crown Prince of Japan) 41 years earlier, in 1965. In between that point, the Japanese imperial family had a whopping nine girls born in a row, if my calculations are correct. The odds of nine girls in a row being born to one extended family are around 1/(2**9) = 1/512, or about 0.2%.