Sophie Gives Birth to a Son: James, Viscount Severn - December 17, 2007

[Royal Fan]

Hes Also actually HRH And A Prince

 

[poppy7]

Poppy, children of viscounts and below (baron, etc. on downward) are The Honourable. Sons of Earls are also The Honourable. Daughters of Earls and above are Ladies.
Viscount Linley's children, both of them, the girl and the boy, are The Hon.

I know, but not the eldest son. Pince Edwards son is not an Honorable, he is Viscount Severn.

Earl Spencer, for instance has six children

Lady Kitty Spencer
Lady Eliza Spencer
Lady Katya Spencer
Louis Spencer, Viscount Althorp
The Hon Edmund Spencer
Lady Lara Spencer

Yes the titling (regarding sons) is a bit weird, but I think it had all to do,
initially, with inheritance (of title, land and property).

Aside: Viscount Linleys wife can, technically be called, Serena, Lady Linley, but I don’t think she is Lady Serena Linley.

 

[Kelly]

Congratulations to the couple!

 

[maymayflying]

Congratulations to the family!

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Aside: Viscount Linleys wife can, technically be called, Serena, Lady Linley, but I don’t think she is Lady Serena Linley.

No, she cannot be called Lady Serena. I see her called it, however, constantly in the press. It always bugs me. Serena is an Honourable by birth, though. She was The Hon. Serena Stanhope and even now I think she can be called The Hon. Lady Linley. Honourable, I know, is a life style. The late Sir Angus Ogilvy was son of an Earl so he was an Honourable, and hence Princess Alexandra being "The Hon. Lady Ogilvy".

The press also calls Viscount Linley "Viscount David Linley" a lot, even though it's not correct form.

 

[poppy7]

No, she cannot be called Lady Serena. I see her called it, however, constantly in the press. It always bugs me. Serena is an Honourable by birth, though. She was The Hon. Serena Stanhope and even now I think she can be called The Hon. Lady Linley. Honourable, I know, is a life style. The late Sir Angus Ogilvy was son of an Earl so he was an Honourable, and hence Princess Alexandra being "The Hon. Lady Ogilvy".

The press also calls Viscount Linley "Viscount David Linley" a lot, even though it's not correct form.

No she can't be called that. Princess Alexandra is only called that because her husband was knighted by the Queen, and consequently he became a Sir, and she: Lady Oglivy. He was orginally The Hon. Angus Oglivy, once he was knighted he was technically The Hon, Sir Angus Oglivy. Lady Linleys married name surpasses her maiden name in rank, so she no longer uses it. Angus Oglivy was born with a title, and he also acquired, an honory one. Laurence Olivier's wife, Joan Plowright, is technically, Dame Jane Plowright, Baroness Olivier (the confusion I know)

Lady Linley probably could be called: The Hon Serena Stanhope, Viscountess Linley, but not the The Hon. Lady Linley, as that is not her husbands title.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Well, poppy, I just imagine all the people glancing over this exchange of ours and shaking their heads in frustration, or confusion, or something worse.
So to recap and clarify:

Being a descendant of Her Majesty The Queen and HRH The Duke of Edinburgh....
James Alexander Philip Theo Mountbatten-Windsor
will be known as James Windsor, Viscount Severn (Lord Severn)
Heir Apparent of HRH The Prince Edward, The Earl of Wessex

In Accordance With Letters Patent 1917, being born grandchild of the reigning Monarch, he is entitled also to the style of....
His Royal Highness Prince James of Wessex

 

[MissSaga]

Ahh what a lovely name !

 

[bluestocking]

I was under the impression that he'll be called Viscount Severn or Lord Severn in polite speech or my lord, etc. When Philip dies, I suppose little James would take as his courtesy title "Earl of Essex," while his father would become Duke of Edinburgh. Louise would continue to be Lady Louise. In law, the children continue to be HRH Princess Louise and HRH Prince James of Wessex, though they are using subsidiary titles. Camilla is, by law, Princess Charles of Wales, even if she uses the subsidiary title Duchess of Cornwall. The royals are a bunch of people going about in disguise for the sake of public opinion.

 

[bbb]

ohh i like the name, rolls off so beautifully. he looked to be a sweet little tyke i'm glad they used Phillip and i've always loved the name alexander, i can't remember a recent James- solid british name, but i'm wondering where Theo fits in- what is sophies fathers name? ancestors? just curious. i must add i like the ring of Prince James of Wessex much more than Viscount Severn (its very similar to Swedens son, sverre) jmo. will it be up to Louise and James how they want to be styled as they get older?

 

[Claire]

I actually think we might be all wrong here. No where has it been said that the titles of Earl of Wessex and Duke of Edinburgh will be passed on to along the line.
This information was included in the leter patent creating Edward the Earl of Wessex, since the info was never published in full, we simply don't know if James will inherit this title. If Edward is given the Duke of Edinburgh title it will be a new creation needing a new patent and thus it will be Charles decision if it is passed down the line.
No Louise and James can't decide when they are older what their title is - that was decided upon Edward's succession to the Earl of Wessex title.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

ohh i like the name, rolls off so beautifully. he looked to be a sweet little tyke i'm glad they used Phillip and i've always loved the name alexander, i can't remember a recent James- solid british name, but i'm wondering where Theo fits in- what is sophies fathers name? ancestors? just curious. i must add i like the ring of Prince James of Wessex much more than Viscount Severn (its very similar to Swedens son, sverre) jmo. will it be up to Louise and James how they want to be styled as they get older?

I agree about how "Prince James of Wessex" sounds. It's beautiful.

But you mean of course, when you compare Sverre to Severn, Norway not Sweden.

 

[bbb]

oops i'm so embarrassed thanks for the clarification. thanks for answer on their titles too, it will be interesting to see how things unfold and such fun to watch them grown up.

 

[cmkrcwi]

There's a town in Maryland called Severn and I went to high school there for a year. We had friends who lived there too.

I don't believe Camilla would be "Princess Charles of Wales" since Charles himself is not Prince Charles of Wales. If in the unlikely event that he would have no other titles, wouldn't she have been "HRH Princess Charles"?

 

[Alison20]

CasiraghiTrio, your explanation is exactly right.

bbb - Severn is not a name - at least not a given name. It is a River. British titles are usually based on a town, river, or other place name, although some just use the surname (see Diana's brother, Earl Spencer).

It is very irritating that the media continually mis-use the titles. Diana was the main case in point. She should have been known as either The Princess of Wales, or Princess Charles (like Princess Michael of Kent). I think BP just thought it was going to be a losing battle to try and change it.

On whether Louise and James could assume the titles HRH, which could legally have been theirs, I suppose it all depends on what the monarch of the day decides. The monarch is the fount of all honours and can adapt usual procedure any time. (Lord Mountbatten asked that his title pass through the female line to his daughters as he had no son, but then asked that it should revert to male only after that! This was agreed.)

Basically you can only be Princess (girls name) or Lady (girls name) if you are born to it - if your father is a Prince, in the first instance, or if your father is a Duke, Marquess or Earl, in the second instance. If you are the wife of a Prince, you will be Princess (husband's given name) unless there is a title (Duke of York or Earl of Wessex giving the wives the title of Duchess of York and Countess of Wessex). If you are the wife of a title holder (Marquess, Earl, Viscount, Baron) who can also be addressed as Lord (title name), you would be addressed as Lady (title name). Your given name should not appear.

From the male point of view, a similar thing happens. If you are Lord Lothian, you will be the holder of the title of either Marquess of Lothian, Earl of Lothian, Viscount Lothian or Baron Lothian (actually it is the first one in this case!). If you are Lord Charles Lothian, you will be the younger son of either the Marquess of Lothian or the Earl of Lothian. (Note that daughters of Earls are all Lady (given name followed by surname), whilst sons of Earls either carry a courtesy title - the eldest - or are merely The Honourable (given name followed by surname). This is the one time when the women are given a better deal!

So James Windsor, Viscount Severn, will normally be referred to officially as Viscount Severn. But when he gets older he is likely to be referred to by his friends as James Severn!

 

[bluestocking]

Royal titles for women work the same way that the old Mrs. John Smith honorific worked. Because Camilla married Prince Charles, but is not a princess in her own right, she should most properly called HRH The Princess Charles of Wales or just The Princess of Wales. Her subsidiary title is The Duchess of Cornwall because Charles is also the Duke of Cornwall. Princess Diana was never actually "Princess Diana." Her correct title was Princess Charles or the Princess of Wales. I don't even know Princess Michael's real first name. She's always just been Princess Michael. If he were a mere Mister, she's be Mrs. Michael Windsor, if we used the old system.

I doubt either Louise or James are going to want to have anything to do with royal titles when they're grown, since their parents will raise them that way and they'll want to be normal people. But at the moment they're a Princess and a Prince of Wessex under the law.

 

[Penny Lane]

I'm not surprised to see it's James somehow I saw it coming and it's a good mathc set with Louisa.

 

[Alexandra RI]

I am a bit disappointed with the names they chose for the little Viscount. I would have chosen James, Edward, Albert, Phillip, Charles. But who am I to complain. I am glad they have a healthy baby.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

So James Windsor, Viscount Severn, will normally be referred to officially as Viscount Severn. But when he gets older he is likely to be referred to by his friends as James Severn!

Absolutely. It's totally normal. One of many cases in point is Edward, Baron Downpatrick who goes by "Edward Downpatrick" with everything. Teachers, friends, everyone treats the Downpatrick as his surname. He never goes by Edward Windsor.

Obviously, Linley does the same thing. If you look on his company site, he is there just David Linley. I wonder if he will keep his company's name the same when he inherits the earldom of Snowdon. Maybe not because Linley is such a great name in furniture, and it might confuse people if he was suddenly "David Snowdon" furniture.

 

[Cici]

This is a little late but many congratulations to the couple and little Louise!

 

[USAF_Veteran]

Best Wishes

Best Wishes to Sophie and Edward on the birth of there son James. I'm glad this pregancy was easlier for Sophie, they needed a good break.

 

[marine2109]

Congratulations to the family!!!!!!!!!!

 

[auntie]

I will take this oppurtunity to vent my frustrations and complain yet again about the fact that the Wessex's chose to give their children lower titles than they deserve! We have far too little princes and princesses in the UK, (Okay, okay compared it to QVictorias day and age)

 

[msleiman]

I will take this oppurtunity to vent my frustrations and complain yet again about the fact that the Wessex's chose to give their children lower titles than they deserve! We have far too little princes and princesses in the UK, (Okay, okay compared it to QVictorias day and age)

I am feeling the same way! I think that trying to keep your children out of the media is one thing,but sometimes I think it is overboard. Their christmas card this year is not even with family. The children are the grandchildren of the Queen! It seems as if Louise could be seen during a few events. Don't get me wrong I really like sophie but sometimes I think that this is taking it to far. Ann's children were seen as children and they did not have titles!

 

[Bella]

I think they should have been given Prince & Princess titles as well. It's their right as grandchildren of the soverign. How will they feel when they get older? I agree w auntie that there aren't alot of princes and princesses anymore. Once the older generation (Queen's generation) die off, there will only be Charles and his siblings with Prince/Princess titles and the next generation there will be fewer: Wm, Harry, Beatrice & Eugenie. That's not alot. True, Wm and Harry's wives will be titled, as will their children, but that's still not alot. I don't get it.

 

[Claire]

I will take this opportunity to vent my frustrations and complain yet again about the fact that the Wessex's chose to give their children lower titles than they deserve! We have far too little princes and princesses in the UK, (Okay, okay compared it to QVictorias day and age)

I don't know what to say, Complain to Prince Charles and the Labour Government. This is Prince Charles' view of the royal family, only polo playing alcholics need apply.
Edward and Sophie have given their children dignity, so they want be put out for the media to feast on - good for them. Titles mean nothing these days, I have a British earl living in my street I watch him take out the trash in his slippers.
Now Louise and James will be judged by their actions and not by their title.

 

[CATS]

Just thought I would point out that when Prince Andrew was born they tried to keep him out of the lime light, but they gave up because people thought there was something wrong with him.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

I'm fairly sure that Louise and James are a prince and princess, and simply do not use the titles. If they get older and desire to do so, I believe they can. As always, we are on the outside looking in. These are two very different parents: one raised privately, the other publicly. They have waited many years to have children, and of course will have discussed their future children at length. Based on experiences from both worlds, it appears for now that they have chosen something more akin to Sophie's growing up. Of course, the flaw in this is that the children are still partaking in the luxuries of being a part of the Royal Family. Eventually, they should be expected to give back for this, but that should be of their own accord.

Also, remember that Louise and James's next oldest cousins- particularly Beatrice- were seen out a lot when they were younger. The Yorks were constantly criticized for several things about the girls when they made appearances: the way the girls were dressed to match, for example, even though we are told they wanted it this way. Sophie and Edward saw this, and after so many years of waiting for a family may simply choose not to go through the constant criticism that is taking one's royal children into public. After so long a wait, they may not want to be criticized for every outfit their children are wearing, for the children's mannerisms, etc. Also, they are seeing now what happened with Beatrice. She was raised almost entirely privately after she was, say, twelve. Still, she was paraded around often as a child. The result is that she is taking her early public life and her later private life and has combined them into a disastrous public image. The Wessexes have the advantage of being the last royal parents of their generation, and are likely simply striving to learn from the mistakes of others.

 

[Bella]

I wouldn't say Pss Beatrice has a disastrous public image. She's behaving basically like any young woman her age. It could be alot worse. I don't think her persona stems from being photographed alot as a child.

I can understand Edward and Sophie not wanting to parade their children out in public, but there is an expectation of at least catching glimpse from time to time and they both should know this, esp. Edward. I think they generate more criticism and speculation for NOT allowing photos of their children, esp. Louise who's old enough now, out to the public. I'm not saying they should invite the papps into their home to scare the kid with a million bulb flashes, but a nice professional portrait or professional photos (say, from uncle Andrew) would be nice and appreciated.

 

[Claire]

I would have to disaggree, the only way Louise and James can get the titles of princess and Prince was if something fairly drastic happened and Edward suddently became King or heir. A leter patent was issued removing the right of all Edward's descendants - they can't suddenly decide to start using titles they never had.
I know this sounds funny, but it makes no difference how much access the media had to James and Louise they will probably not get attention unless of course they toddle out of a bar at night. I speak to a lot of journalists - some who cover royal beats and lets face it Sophie and Edward are not news worthy. Only 10% of Edward and Sophie's engagements are covered by the press, mostly by local publications. They usually only there if there is a request for pics and coverage.
Louise has now been attending day care for a while, the press have not been asked to stay away. They are staying away on their own accord. Why? I assure you that the British tabloids have not suddenly grown hearts. It is because of Sophie's problems of giving birth to her and her eye-problem. When Sophie's company collapsed some of the newspapers covered it, they are received letters adn emails from people noting their bias against a woman who has endured terrible pain and suffering in her private life. It came as such a shock to some newspapers that they suspended Sophie bashing. Apparently the British public feel that the newspapers are nothing but big bullies hitting Sophie when she is already down and purposely targeting her disabled toddler who amost died at birth is not going to win them any friends. The press are thus very anxious when dealing with them. They simply wait for approved photo calls and pics directly from them.
So Edward and Sophie are simply abiding their time, waiting for William and Harry to start doing real engagements, get their girlfriends pregnant and get married. Than they can simply disappear. And they couldn't be happier.