Should Japan abolish the monarchy?

[MARG]

Yeah,They got rid of the cadet royal and ancient noble families after the war which if course got rid of all the eligible prince's royal ladies would traditionally marry so part of the debacle right there.
What they should do and what they will are two totally different animals...To eventually save the monarchy they, the IHA and conservative PTB, will only go as far as they absolutely have to which, IMO, won't give the females an inch...their son's maybe. Heck, if they could I imagine a few would bring back concubine's if they could.

"They", aka the US, did get rid of the nobles and aristocracy post WWII, however, they can take away the title but the people, the families are still there and I would bet they are as "aristocratic" as ever whatever their names are. I am sure that those cadet royal and ancient noble titles could have had those titles restored if they so wished.

 

[amaryllus]

Yes, exactly! set one of those young Princes or Dukes up with Mako or Kako in an arranged but not too arranged marriage and you've got your much vaunted male babies...But it would be so much less trouble to just let the ladies have a right! in the past they had empresses and the throne even passed from mother to daughter once.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Is there such debate in Japan ?

No, there is no debate in Japan to abolish the monarchy. The only chance that Japan becomes a republic, is if the monarchy dies out.

ChiaraC know more about this, but she sadly doesn't post here anymore.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Presidents/Prime Ministers in the enlightened western regimes are puppets too. They front for money of rich industrialists and financiers/bankers.
I highly doubt that the Japanese will abolish the monarchy. Appropriate measure will be taken to continue the dynasty.

AMEN to that. You speak the truth!

 

[Blog Real]

No, there is no debate in Japan to abolish the monarchy. The only chance that Japan becomes a republic, is if the monarchy dies out.

ChiaraC know more about this, but she sadly doesn't post here anymore.

What is the only chance to become Republic?

The Emperor is the brand image of Japan. The Japanese monarchy should be the safest of all.

 

[Al_bina]

Tenno (Emperor) is the highest priest of the Shinto religion, who deals with important heavenly affairs. The Windsors in the UK or any other European royal family can be viewed as a brand image.

 

[Blog Real]

Tenno (Emperor) is the highest priest of the Shinto religion, who deals with important heavenly affairs. The Windsors in the UK or any other European royal family can be viewed as a brand image.

In the United Kingdom, the Queen is head of the Anglican Church. Are roles alike.

All monarchs are hallmarks that must be preserved. In my opinion.

 

[Al_bina]

Unlike English sovereigns, Emperors of Japan are said to be the direct descendants of the sun-goddess Amaterasu. The Japanese usually call the Emperor "Tennō", which means "heavenly sovereign".

Rulers of the British Isles were Roman Catholic. Then Henry VIII decided to form his own church to get a divorce. It is up to Europeans to preserve or change their lacklustre brand images.

 

[Blog Real]

Next Monday the Emperor abdicated, this could damage the image of the monarchy?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Next Monday the Emperor abdicated, this could damage the image of the monarchy?

No, then his son Naruhito will become the new Emperor and revive the monarchy. Did the abdications of King Juan Carlos of Spain, King Albert II of the Belgians, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, Pope Benedictus XVI or Grand-Duke Jean of Luxembourg damage their monarchies?

 

[Denville]

Next Monday the Emperor abdicated, this could damage the image of the monarchy?

do yiou mean Last Monday?
I don't see why it should damage the image of the monarchy.. it is becoming more common for elderly monarchs to abdicate and leve the job to younger people.

 

[Blog Real]

Exactly. I am in favour of the waiver, I think make sense today. I think the Emperor abdicate.

 

[Rebafan81]

Quick question regarding Naruhito becoming Emperor, could he change the succession law so that his daughter was next in line when he becomes Emperor?

 

[Mbruno]

Quick question regarding Naruhito becoming Emperor, could he change the succession law so that his daughter was next in line when he becomes Emperor?

No, he cannot change the succession law. Only the Diet (i.e. the Japanese parliament) can do it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Quick question regarding Naruhito becoming Emperor, could he change the succession law so that his daughter was next in line when he becomes Emperor?

No. The Japanese Constitution, drafted by the United States and the other Allied Powers after Japan's defeat in WWII, gives the Emperor zero comma zero political influence. Even the Address by Emperor Akihito is met with such caution and care, as the Japanese Government and the Imperial Household Agency are painfully maintaining the Emperor's total non-influence as a dogma.

This was the prize the monarchy had to pay after the total defeat in WWII. Being ceremonial puppets but remaining an imperial family with all privileges, or the downfall of the monarchy (like happened in China, think about the movie The Last Emperor) and a prosecution of Emperor Hirohito and other members of the imperial family for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

If there is any desire to make Princess Aiko an Empress, it has to come from the Prime Minister and the Diet (Parliament). The current Prime Minister is a conservative with an overwhelming majority in Parliament, most likely unwilling to change the status-quo since there are heirs enough: Prince Naruhito, his brother Prince Akishino, his nephew Prince Hisahito, etc.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

With the abdication and accession, surveys have been polling nationally representative samples of voters about their attitudes towards the monarchy.

The evidence of the surveys is that very few voters' views match those of ultranationalists who would restore political power to the monarchy or republicans who would abolish the imperial system.


Summary:

74% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, 78% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey, and 80.9% in the Kyodo News survey back the current system, in which the emperor is defined as the "symbol of the state", without having political powers.

4.8% in the Kyodo News survey, 7% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, and 7% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey want to abolish the monarchy.

4% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, 4.3% in the Kyodo News survey, and 5% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey want to give the emperor more power.

7.3% in the Kyodo News survey said the emperor should be considered a sacred figure. The question apparently wasn't included in the other surveys.


See the full results and more survey questions here.

Over 82% feel affection for new emperor, 79% support woman on throne
74% back emperor as symbol of state defined by current Constitution: Mainichi poll - The Mainichi
78% support symbolic emperor system - The Japan News



The results also show why the traditionalists and nationalists are not pressed to address concerns about the line of succession running out. With so few republicans, the monarchy will clearly continue even if the current imperial family dies out.

 

[Mbruno]

With the abdication and accession, surveys have been polling nationally representative samples of voters about their attitudes towards the monarchy.

The evidence of the surveys is that very few voters' views match those of ultranationalists who would restore political power to the monarchy or republicans who would abolish the imperial system.


Summary:

74% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, 78% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey, and 80.9% in the Kyodo News survey back the current system, in which the emperor is defined as the "symbol of the state", without having political powers.

4.8% in the Kyodo News survey, 7% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, and 7% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey want to abolish the monarchy.

4% in the Mainichi Shimbun survey, 4.3% in the Kyodo News survey, and 5% in the Yomiuri Shimbun survey want to give the emperor more power.

7.3% in the Kyodo News survey said the emperor should be considered a sacred figure. The question apparently wasn't included in the other surveys.


See the full results and more survey questions here.

Over 82% feel affection for new emperor, 79% support woman on throne
74% back emperor as symbol of state defined by current Constitution: Mainichi poll - The Mainichi
78% support symbolic emperor system - The Japan News



The results also show why the traditionalists and nationalists are not pressed to address concerns about the line of succession running out. With so few republicans, the monarchy will clearly continue even if the current imperial family dies out.

Nevertheless, a clear majority ( 79 %) support female succession. I can’t see any significant political gain from the government resisting it.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Nevertheless, a clear majority ( 79 %) support female succession. I can’t see any significant political gain from the government resisting it.

You are right on that. The stance of the current government is, I would say, largely the result of Prime Minister Abe's own keen embrace of nationalist ideas.

For other Liberal Democratic Party politicians who might not be personally opposed to female succession, it is more a matter of political loss than political gain. Their inaction will not lose them the votes of the pro-female succession majority, whereas if they commit to female succession, they will be punished by the pro-male-only succession minority.

 

[Futurist]

Nevertheless, a clear majority ( 79 %) support female succession. I can’t see any significant political gain from the government resisting it.

The majority might want it, but apparently not enough to penalize Japanese politicians for not implementing this idea.

If I was in charge of Japan, I would, of course, aim to allow female succession but only for all Japanese heirs after Hisahito. So, the current Japanese line of succession will remain intact for its first two members: Crown Prince Fumihito and his son Prince Hisahito.

 

[Futurist]

You are right on that. The stance of the current government is, I would say, largely the result of Prime Minister Abe's own keen embrace of nationalist ideas.

For other Liberal Democratic Party politicians who might not be personally opposed to female succession, it is more a matter of political loss than political gain. Their inaction will not lose them the votes of the pro-female succession majority, whereas if they commit to female succession, they will be punished by the pro-male-only succession minority.

While this isn't directly comparable, this is sort of similar to how a lot of Jewish branches in the world refuse to change the principle of matrilineal descent in regards to granting Jewish status at birth even though it's clearly incompatible with the principle of egalitarianism. US Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism did this, and I think one branch of Judaism in Britain, but no one else if I recall correctly. Apparently in spite of their commitment to egalitarianism, other Jewish branches refuse to change this principle in favor of patrilineal/bilinear descent.

 

[Futurist]

No. The Japanese Constitution, drafted by the United States and the other Allied Powers after Japan's defeat in WWII, gives the Emperor zero comma zero political influence. Even the Address by Emperor Akihito is met with such caution and care, as the Japanese Government and the Imperial Household Agency are painfully maintaining the Emperor's total non-influence as a dogma.

This was the prize the monarchy had to pay after the total defeat in WWII. Being ceremonial puppets but remaining an imperial family with all privileges, or the downfall of the monarchy (like happened in China, think about the movie The Last Emperor) and a prosecution of Emperor Hirohito and other members of the imperial family for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

If there is any desire to make Princess Aiko an Empress, it has to come from the Prime Minister and the Diet (Parliament). The current Prime Minister is a conservative with an overwhelming majority in Parliament, most likely unwilling to change the status-quo since there are heirs enough: Prince Naruhito, his brother Prince Akishino, his nephew Prince Hisahito, etc.

Though if Hisahito will remain childless, then things could get interesting. Still, in such a scenario, one of Hisahito's sisters (the other one is leaving the Japanese royal family right now) and her descendants (assuming an eventual change in the Japanese succession laws) could end up being ahead of Aiko in the Japanese line of succession, assuming that Hisahito of course indeed eventually ends up becoming Japanese Emperor.

A hypothetical Hisahito-Aiko marriage would, of course, be interesting, but they're likely too closely related--first cousins--for this to successfully work. The risk of inbreeding is too great. Hisahito's great-grandfather Emperor Hirohito did marry a princess from one of the Japanese cadet branches, but AFAIK, their biological relation was MUCH more distant.

As a side note, this might seem like a VERY rude question, but I'll ask it here anyway: Does anyone here know if Prince Hisahito was conceived the natural way or through IVF? When I still attended university, in one of my classes, we had a video conference with another professor who was teaching in Japan and in response to one of the questions that she got she said that she suspects that Prince Hisahito was conceived through IVF so that they could help ensure the embryo's sex afterwards. After all, Japan was desperately looking for a male heir back then. But of course it's very possible that she was wrong in regards to this. Or that she was joking about this. Anyway, though, what do you think about this?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Hisahito seems a happy, healthy, much loved and intelligent young prince. Whether his parents received him by natural conception or not seems not so relevant and no one will ever know.

 

[Prinsara]

While this isn't directly comparable, this is sort of similar to how a lot of Jewish branches in the world refuse to change the principle of matrilineal descent in regards to granting Jewish status at birth even though it's clearly incompatible with the principle of egalitarianism. US Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism did this, and I think one branch of Judaism in Britain, but no one else if I recall correctly. Apparently in spite of their commitment to egalitarianism, other Jewish branches refuse to change this principle in favor of patrilineal/bilinear descent.

It's not related at all, is completely off-topic, and is in-fact offensive. You're talking about a choice for a religion and a people versus a choice for what politicians decide for one family.

Though if Hisahito will remain childless, then things could get interesting. Still, in such a scenario, one of Hisahito's sisters (the other one is leaving the Japanese royal family right now) and her descendants (assuming an eventual change in the Japanese succession laws) could end up being ahead of Aiko in the Japanese line of succession, assuming that Hisahito of course indeed eventually ends up becoming Japanese Emperor.

A hypothetical Hisahito-Aiko marriage would, of course, be interesting, but they're likely too closely related--first cousins--for this to successfully work. The risk of inbreeding is too great. Hisahito's great-grandfather Emperor Hirohito did marry a princess from one of the Japanese cadet branches, but AFAIK, their biological relation was MUCH more distant.

As a side note, this might seem like a VERY rude question, but I'll ask it here anyway: Does anyone here know if Prince Hisahito was conceived the natural way or through IVF? When I still attended university, in one of my classes, we had a video conference with another professor who was teaching in Japan and in response to one of the questions that she got she said that she suspects that Prince Hisahito was conceived through IVF so that they could help ensure the embryo's sex afterwards. After all, Japan was desperately looking for a male heir back then. But of course it's very possible that she was wrong in regards to this. Or that she was joking about this. Anyway, though, what do you think about this?

First cousin marriages are fairly common in most of the world without serious consequences, but the only way I can ever see Aiko-Hisahito happening is ironically if they were to truly fall for each other, and that doesn't seem very likely.

I think the circumstances of Hisahito's conception are not relevant to the topic of this particular thread and should be discussed in some other one. Learning how to use multi-quote might also be helpful to your discussions.

 

[Curryong]

In a personal sense of course for Hisahito and his parents it’s not relevant. However it might become very relevant in the future if Hisahito fathers three or four daughters and no son, and there is no change in the succession laws in the next thirty to forty years. If IVF becomes common in the future in order to choose the sex of such offspring then that is hardly natural conception.

 

[Alison H]

The amount of pressure on both the Empress Masako and Princess Kiko to produce a male heir must have been horrendous - like going back to the times of Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, the Tsarina Alexandra, Anne of Austria, Marie Antoinette, and many others. I wouldn't like to see that happen to Hisahito's future wife, if he has one, and for that reason alone I wish they'd allow female succession.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

The amount of pressure on both the Empress Masako and Princess Kiko to produce a male heir must have been horrendous - like going back to the times of Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, the Tsarina Alexandra, Anne of Austria, Marie Antoinette, and many others. I wouldn't like to see that happen to Hisahito's future wife, if he has one, and for that reason alone I wish they'd allow female succession.

And the pressure on Hisahito as the sole heir will be horrendous on the young man too. It is clear the IHA have no idea how to help those with mental health challenges - look at Masako and Mako. This poor boy has the weight of the world on his shoulders and I hate to think how badly this has been managed by the IHA. Can you imagine what it will be for him, when he is in his early 20's, trying to find his feet in the world with the expectations that will laid on his feet? When he sees his classmates, friends and peers have the freedoms on the world, yet he has to conform to an antiquated set of rules? The public have been ruthless with Masako and Mako - they will be the same with Hisahito.

What happens if Hisahito wakes up one morning, and just says "nope - not doing this!". Or he does something so ubiquitous of a young adult (i.e. drinking too much; partying etc), the press catch wind and then he is subjected to discussions of his suitability as Emperor? Or having to go through heartbreak because the woman he loves so much is considered not suitable to be an Empress or simply says to him "I love you; but the expectations on me are far too great". This poor boy has been considered the saviour of the Imperial Family from the moment he was born. I feel so so sorry for him.

I don't think it'll be a question of abolishing the Japanese Family - I think it'll be extinct first

 

[Blog Real]

The amount of pressure on both the Empress Masako and Princess Kiko to produce a male heir must have been horrendous - like going back to the times of Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, the Tsarina Alexandra, Anne of Austria, Marie Antoinette, and many others. I wouldn't like to see that happen to Hisahito's future wife, if he has one, and for that reason alone I wish they'd allow female succession.

I'm also in favor of female succession. Empress Masako and Princess Kiko must have been under enormous pressure to have a male child. I also don't want Hisahito's future wife (if he has one) to suffer what Masako and Kiko suffered. Female succession was going to solve a huge problem in Japan's monarchy.

 

[MsJulie]

I don’t think Japan will give up the monarchy if there is a male heir. I believe it will be forced into accepting the fact they will have an Empress leading them one day. Some old ways have to change or they monarchy will disappear….I am disappointed that many cannot see that. As the younger generation takes over more, I think there will be a change. MOO.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I don’t think Japan will give up the monarchy if there is a male heir. I believe it will be forced into accepting the fact they will have an Empress leading them one day. Some old ways have to change or they monarchy will disappear….I am disappointed that many cannot see that. As the younger generation takes over more, I think there will be a change. MOO.

A reigning Empress is nothing new in Japan by the way (there was one in the years 1762–1771) but the ladies come in the picture when all legal imperial male agnates have become extinct, so to say.


Was Prince Hisahito not born 15 years ago, we absolutely would have seen Princess Aiko as the Heiress Presumptive after her uncle Prince Akishino. The core existence of the very IHA itself stands of falls with the existence of the monarchy.

 

[Heavs]

While this isn't directly comparable, this is sort of similar to how a lot of Jewish branches in the world refuse to change the principle of matrilineal descent in regards to granting Jewish status at birth even though it's clearly incompatible with the principle of egalitarianism. US Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism did this, and I think one branch of Judaism in Britain, but no one else if I recall correctly. Apparently in spite of their commitment to egalitarianism, other Jewish branches refuse to change this principle in favor of patrilineal/bilinear descent.

I don't know if you can compare an entire religion/culture to a specific family circumstance. Plenty of religions have rules about "who is a X" and rules and cultural issues about conversion and intermarriage. A patrilineal Jew might not be accepted as halakhically Jewish by Orthodox groups but they would be allowed to convert and most Orthodox and stricter Conservative groups aren't really about egalitarianism anyway IMO more "separate but important responsibilities for both men and women". It's a difficult topic but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the issues facing the JIF IMO and even if for example the Rabbinate were to issue a decree it wouldn't be followed everywhere. Also I believe that many Reform groups require the patrilineal Jew to be actively involved in Judaism to consider them Jewish.

Ned Donovan converted to Islam to marry Princess Riyah because it's illegal in Jordan for her to marry a non Muslim (and other personal belief reasons perhaps). She retains her titles and status but would never be in line to be Queen no matter who she married.

There's no legal or cultural mechanism where the current female members of the family can marry a commoner and retain their status or for females to be in the LOS.

Monarchies aren't really about egalitarianism anyway, despite most western ones changing the rules. Edo and Jack didn't marry into their wives titles nor would Charlotte's under the current rules despite her being higher in the succession than Louis. I do think they're going to have to do *something* unless Hisahito marries at 22 and produces 3-4 boys in quick succession otherwise they will be basically extinct. And the pressure on him is already enormous.

A poster on the other thread posited that perhaps Mako's stalled marriage happened now *because* the government is gearing up to seriously consider female member retaining status after marriage and they didn't want Kei Komuro's family troubles to be part of that conversation.