Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 1: Ending 2022

[iakynthi]

Oh,we're gonna learn so many things on this forum,wait and see...
My next question goes for Italian members:how do people in Italy feel about these movements(towards the restoration of the monarchy in their country)?Do they care about it,discuss it,worry or feel happy about it?

 

[MAfan]

In Italy, Monarchy = Savoy = Fascism = Racial Laws = II World War = ...

In Italy some monarchist movements exist, but without great following.

In Italy, official historiography teaches us that King Umberto II has abdicated in 1946, and the republic was legitimally (?) proclaimed; it is known that this version of the fact is not true, because the republic was proclaimed by the government of mr. De Gasperi unilaterally, without the reading of the official results of the referendum by the Court of Cassation.

In Italy, medias continue to call VE and EF the Heirs of King Umberto II and heirs to the Italian Throne, but also they call Amedeo and Aimone as Heirs to the Italian Throne, so a lot of people ignore the possibility of a Monarchy because the situation seems to be not clear.

In Italy, Savoy Family is seen as good only for TV shows, dancing and gossip. No more.

 

[iakynthi]

That was enlightening indeed!Thanks,Mafan!The same happens in Greece,so I guess this is why,in such cases,the restoration seems impossible.

 

[MAfan]

My opinion is that Italians are victims of disinformation (but also responsable for it)...and several powerful powers want to maintain and improve this situation...

 

[rominet09]

Thank you. It is really useful for us to know that. From abroad we cannot get a precise idea of their possible popularity ....

 

[MAfan]

yes, but with a different meaning..."res publica" was in the Ancient Rome the "public thing", the State, the political affairs (with the ancient greek meaning of political, referred to the polis, the nation), and not the contrary of Monarchy...

Before I forgot:
In Italy, a lot of people think that Monarchy means only the contrary of democracy; the Monarchy excludes the democracy, because Fascism ruled with the consent of the Monarchy...

 

[iakynthi]

And we all know that when people combine monarchies with an ideology like that (fascism in Italy,dictatorship in Greece etc.),it's not easy to change their minds about their deposed royals.How about the new generation?EF,Aimone etc.What do people think about them?Constantine's children are seen as celebrities here,just to have something more to gossip about.

 

[MAfan]

EF is seen as a celebrity, a showman, the dancing prince, a gaffeur...after the request of indemnity of 260.000.000 of Euro for the expropriation following the proclamation of the republic and the exile...nobody consider him seriously...

Aimone is not very known, like all his family (Aosta branch), he quietly lives in Moscow without scandals or gaffes, so nobody consider him, and that's a pity.

 

[Tosca]

And do not forget that the Vatican played an important role in the 1946 referendum. In fact the top clerical hierarchies strongly supported the Republic, through a newly formed political party called "Democrazia Cristiana" (Christian Democrats) of which Mr. De Gasperi was the leader, hence his proclaiming the republic unilaterally.

The Vatican wanted to take revenge on the Savoy family for having dispossesed them the Papal States around mid 1800's.

Aimone and his family aren't even taken into account as "probable monarchs", by the Italians

 

[amedea]

Democrazia Cristiana as well as the Catholic church were officially neutral on the republic-monarchy question, but many historians (Montanelli for example) noted that the DC leaders prefered republic (as De Gasperi) while church hyerarchies (at all levels) prefered monarchy. I think the relationship between Pius XII and Savoy house was great (the pope even went in official visit to the Quirinale Palace and Savoys princes were often in Vatican; the king of Italy then gave titles to Pacelli family, the Pius XII family)

 

[MAfan]

And it seems that the same Pope Pius XII praied the King to leave Italy in order to escape from the civil war, if the King would oppose to the coup d’état of mr. De Gasperi and friends.

 

[Tosca]

Democrazia Cristiana as well as the Catholic church were officially neutral on the republic-monarchy question, but many historians (Montanelli for example) noted that the DC leaders prefered republic (as De Gasperi) while church hyerarchies (at all levels) prefered monarchy. I think the relationship between Pius XII and Savoy house was great (the pope even went in official visit to the Quirinale Palace and Savoys princes were often in Vatican; the king of Italy then gave titles to Pacelli family, the Pius XII family)

In his book "The history of Italy, the Republican Italy", Montanelli stated that the Vatican did want to "get rid of the monarchy!", so they invited the "catholic" voters to choose the Republic.
Do not forget that there were several priests who fought in the ranks of the Resistance.

 

[amedea]

I'll be more precise on my Montanelli quote as soon as I can check; for now I would like to underline that being part of resistence doesn't mean being republicans: a very high percentage of partisans were called "azzuri" or "badogliani" because they had asreference the state that the King restablished in the south of Italy (prime minister was Badoglio). And these were the partisans that church helped the most, as many of the others were communists. "Republichini" were in those years the supposters of nazi-fascist republic of Salò..so everybody with monarchical ideals who fought, fought as partisan (I'm not saying that everybody who fought was monarchical however)

 

[kelly9480]

Restoration of the Monarchy

The Savoias have no chance of ever being restored, even if they are able to unite their claim. Too much has happened, and Italy has moved on.

 

[fearghas]

The Savoias have no chance of ever being restored, even if they are able to unite their claim. Too much has happened, and Italy has moved on.

Your ability to predict the future is amazing. While I agree that the chances of the Savoys ever regaining the throne of Italy are HIGHLY remote, you can never say never, you just don't know what turn of events might happen. The only way to say that the Savoys will never reign in Italy again are either if the family becomes extinct or the nation of Italy disapears.

 

[V.F.H.78]

I absolutly agree with you fearghas. Nobody can say that.
I'm french and I have exactly the same problem in France. But even if the Bourbon have insignificant chances to reign one day in France and Savoia to reign in Italy, you should be never necessary lose hope. Otherwise why be royalist in France or in Italia?

 

[kelly9480]

Your ability to predict the future is amazing. While I agree that the chances of the Savoys ever regaining the throne of Italy are HIGHLY remote, you can never say never, you just don't know what turn of events might happen. The only way to say that the Savoys will never reign in Italy again are either if the family becomes extinct or the nation of Italy disapears.

If you honestly believe that there is any chance, however remote, that the corrupt men who run Italian politics are going to welcome a monarchy, then hold on to that dream. The House of Savoy has either 5 or 3 males, depending on whether you acknowledge the claims of VE and EF, or accept Amedeo's position that he is head of the House and VE and EF are not in line. That's an incredibly insecure line, that is currently completely dependent on a newborn baby to continue another generation. And if la Lega Nord has it's way, Italy, as we know it, might disappear. As Marlene once said on tv, her cat has a better chance of becoming sovereign of Italy than a Savoia.

 

[kelly9480]

I absolutly agree with you fearghas. Nobody can say that.
I'm french and I have exactly the same problem in France. But even if the Bourbon have insignificant chances to reign one day in France and Savoia to reign in Italy, you should be never necessary lose hope. Otherwise why be royalist in France or in Italia?

Why does it have to be the Bourbons? The final dynasty was the Bonapartes, and the senior heir male of Hugh Capet is the Legitimist claimant. You can be a royalist and respect the tradition without wanting a restoration. None of the French claimants fill me with the thought that they would make a good, 21st century monarch, but I can respect their positions are heirs to the historical dynasties who ruled France.

Aleksandr of Serbia might have the best chance at restoration, as he has aligned himself with the nationalists through his almost comical response to Kosovar independence and his ties to the Church, and he has received certain concessions from the government, and even there a restoration is unlikely (and his dynasty doesn't carry baggage anything like the Savoias do).

 

[MAfan]

If you honestly believe that there is any chance, however remote, that the corrupt men who run Italian politics are going to welcome a monarchy, then hold on to that dream. The House of Savoy has either 5 or 3 males, depending on whether you acknowledge the claims of VE and EF, or accept Amedeo's position that he is head of the House and VE and EF are not in line. That's an incredibly insecure line, that is currently completely dependent on a newborn baby to continue another generation. And if la Lega Nord has it's way, Italy, as we know it, might disappear. As Marlene once said on tv, her cat has a better chance of becoming sovereign of Italy than a Savoia.

I'm really sorry, because I'm Italian and a bit Monarchist, but you have understood the true Italian situation, at all.

 

[fearghas]

I'm not saying that the Savoys will regain the throne, or that it is any way likely or even that they should but it is not impossible. No one born in the 1800s could have predicted the turn of events that occurred in the 1900s. It was just impossible for anyone to imagine that a simple war would be the downfall of three great empires. that communism would control huge chunks of the world. People in the 1950s would have shaken their heads in scorn and said impossible, to anyone who said that Eastern Europe would come out of the communist shadow and reintergrate with the rest of Europe.

You cannot say with 100% surety that the Savoys will not reign in Italy, unless the family becomes extinct (and the birth of little Umberto has just made that just a little bit less certain) or Italy as a nation no longer exists. Maybe in 20 years time those corrupt old men you mention will have been replaced by corrupt old men who are monarchists. Who knows.

 

[kelly9480]

What is the true Italian situation then? That the government is plagued by corruption? That's true. Italian politics are internationally famous for the shenanigans politicians get up to and that are tolerated by the electorate. That there is a political party that has at times mooted advocation of seceding from the state and is now focused on federalism and greater autonomy? That there is almost no support whatsoever for bringing in a monarchy to replace the president? The scandals that have plagued the Savoias haven't done their cause any good, between the shotgun marriage, criminal prosecutions, threatened lawsuits against the Italian state, attempts to enter politics, and general misbehaviour.

It would have been interesting to see how the monarchy would have fared had VEIII abdicated in 1943, and given Umberto II a chance to get his feet wet when the country wasn't under the gun, so to speak, to decide, once and for all, about something as important as altering the form of government. But it didn't work out that way,and few Italians are interested enough to give it a second thought.

You can be an Italian monarchist and still acknowledge that it's not going to happen. There are Italian monarchists, but unfortunately (?) not all of them support the Carignano line, with the Aostas, Parmas, Habsburgs and Two Sicilies all having some amount of support, however small. That inability of the few Italian monarchists to get together and support a single claimant also hurts.

 

[iakynthi]

I undertand exactly the way you think about it,Fearghas.I studied History and I have to agree.After all,no one said that some nations progress through the course of history.They can go backwards,as well,and feel the need to restore the monarchy.Not that I wish/hope something like that to any country.It's just a general conversation,ok?

 

[Tosca]

another generation. And if la Lega Nord has it's way, Italy, as we know it, might disappear.

According to a most recent survey Lega Nord (Northern League) is winning more than 11% in Northern Italy, so we may have a Republic in Northern Central Italy and a Kingdom in the South.
I don't think the Southern Italians would be very welcoming to the Savoias...

 

[tody21974]

i think that savoia hope is in this baby, and in the profecy of Padre Pio, Padre Pio profecy the election of pope Giovanni Paolo II, is possible see in the future the new italian monarchy, i want to see the smile in the future

 

[MAfan]

i think that savoia hope is in this baby, and in the profecy of Padre Pio, Padre Pio profecy the election of pope Giovanni Paolo II, is possible see in the future the new italian monarchy, i want to see the smile in the future

And his Father is portraied on Padre Pio's grave...

 

[Tosca]

With all due respect for Padre Pio, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[iakynthi]

I'm really shocked now:could Italy be separated in two countries?Is this really possible?

 

[Tosca]

Or even in three. I do not think the Sicilians would like to be subordinated again to a King whose throne stands in Naples...

Do not forget that Italy was just the name of a peninsula until 1861. The Romans themselves used to call today's Italian North "Gaul".
Besides the Italian peninsula is inhabited by several populations, who have sometimes very little in common, but religion and an official language. I see this concept is difficult to grasp for a foreigner.

This said, EF talks about succession issues in his latest interview to weekly DIVAeDONNA, and though not mentioning Aimone's son at all, he said that he and Clotilde are still thinking of having another baby. It doesn't matter if Clotilde is 40 already, after all Princess Caroline had her daughter Alexandra at 42 years of age. Moreover there's a parliamentary bill that if approved - and it's very likely to be approved, since it exists in other European countries - will enable women to give their children their maiden name. And that in Sweden, Norway and Spain, the Salic Law has been abolished. But there's nothing to abolish in Italy, since there's no longer a throne to claim.

Again: the average Italians do not care a bit about this family.

 

[MAfan]

In his letter to VE, written in Cascais on January 25, 1960, King Umberto II wrote: "As the 44th Head of the Family I have no intention , any more than I have the right, to change the law".
King Umberto knew his work, and I think that if He said that he could not change the Family Laws, he could not do it. So, theoretically, neither His descendants can change the Laws, and even if VE and after him EF would be the Head of the House, they couldn't abolish the Salic Law.

 

[fearghas]

I'm not an Italian monarchist, I don't even have any Italian ancestors. What I'm trying to explain is thatyou cannot predict the future and however remote, there is a chance that while there is a dynasty and country ,the Savoys could reign again. So please don't say that it is impossible, say that it is extremely unlikely. And I say this not because I want the Savoys to reign again but because sloppy logic annoys me.