Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[CSENYC]

I think that everyone involved in the proposed restoration needs to take a step back and realize:

1. A king is a government employee and, in today's European countries, is democratically accountable. A king is not above the law and is not a deity.

2. Like it or not, Romania is a republic, and working within the republic is the way to accomplish a restoration.

3. Monarchies are desirable for various reasons, such as having a nonpartisan person who does good in society. Focusing on obtaining the benefits of a monarchy can be done even if the monarchy is not the same as it was in, say, 1923 or 1947.

4. Not all Romanian monarchs were desirable: e.g., King Carol II, so restoring the monarchical system of 1923, which fell into dictatorship, may not be desirable.

 

[Cory]

The lands and properties owned by the former royal family are not exactly Belgravia in London or the Bois de Boulogne in Paris, money-making properties. To my uunderstanding it are forests, moorlands and agricultural ground. It helps that the costs of staffing in Romania is waaaaay lower than in Northern-Europe but I can not imagine it makes the family rich. They can keep a standard. When King Michael passes away, his fortune has to be divided by his widow and their five children. It will fragment and melt away as snow for the sun. Margarita can not refuse the generous offer, I think.

They will be divided if before that moment these properties were not divided otherwise.

 

[Cory]

I think that everyone involved in the proposed restoration needs to take a step back and realize:

1. A king is a government employee and, in today's European countries, is democratically accountable. A king is not above the law and is not a deity.

2. Like it or not, Romania is a republic, and working within the republic is the way to accomplish a restoration.

3. Monarchies are desirable for various reasons, such as having a nonpartisan person who does good in society. Focusing on obtaining the benefits of a monarchy can be done even if the monarchy is not the same as it was in, say, 1923 or 1947.

4. Not all Romanian monarchs were desirable: e.g., King Carol II, so restoring the monarchical system of 1923, which fell into dictatorship, may not be desirable.

Nobody denies the country is a republic even the way the country became a republic was not a democratical way.
The problem now is how to restore Monarchy in this situation . The politicians are not really interested and the monarchists need to be more united.

 

[Benjamin]

They will be divided if before that moment these properties were not divided otherwise.

Is it possible in Romania to create foundations/trusts that can consolidate the assets of a family so that these holdings are not divided as such?

 

[Cory]

I do not know how things are now but let's hope all the 5 Princesses will get equal parts of the inheritance when the time comes. It is important that all the goods remain in the hands of the descedants of the Sovereign.
The Princes of Hohenzollern will have to buy properties in the country if they want to live in Romania.

 

[Benjamin]

It seems that it is indeed an option to create a trust that can protect the properties that the Royal House possesses for the benefit of its members.

The Romanian Digest No.3 March 2012

The wisest course of action would be to make sure that all of the Princesses are compensated (monetarily, if necessary, for their shares) in an adequate fashion when the time comes. However, all immovable private properties should be put into a foundation that is managed by professionals and whose income is used for the upkeep of the Royal House in Romania. This is what has been done by many non-reigning families in other countries, and it is by far the best solution to insure the continued financial independence of future generations of the Romanian royal family.

 

[Cory]

It seems that it is indeed an option to create a trust that can protect the properties that the Royal House possesses for the benefit of its members.

The Romanian Digest No.3 March 2012

The wisest course of action would be to make sure that all of the Princesses are compensated (monetarily, if necessary, for their shares) in an adequate fashion when the time comes. However, all immovable private properties should be put into a foundation that is managed by professionals and whose income is used for the upkeep of the Royal House in Romania. This is what has been done by many non-reigning families in other countries, and it is by far the best solution to insure the continued financial independence of future generations of the Romanian royal family.

This is a matter to be discussed by the 5 Princesses and by the 5 grandchildren of the King. If the grandchildren won't be interested to.live in the country probably all these goods will be sold anyway.
In case of return of Monarchy Peles castle can be bought by the state and become the summer residence of the next King from the Hohenzollern House.

 

[Benjamin]

Given past history, one may presume that communication in such a large family is not always easy to facilitate.

Princesses Helen, Sophie and Marie joined their eldest sister Crown Princess Margarita for the 10 May celebrations this year; it may be fair to conclude that these four of the sisters have a dialogue. With Irina Walker, it is more difficult to surmise, as she is a private person living in the United States; her children are also private persons, and they would not necessarily be interested in any sort of Romanian inheritance since they are members of the well-endowed Kreuger family. Only the children of Princesses Helen and Sophie are likely to be possible beneficiaries from the Royal Family's fortune in Romania.

Keeping in mind the restitution that was granted to King Michael and the seeming competent ability of the property administrators to manage these assets, I believe that the Royal House will certainly do all that is necessary to guarantee that this legacy remains within the family and as intact as is feasible.

 

[Cory]

Given past history, one may presume that communication in such a large family is not always easy to facilitate.

Princesses Helen, Sophie and Marie joined their eldest sister Crown Princess Margarita for the 10 May celebrations this year; it may be fair to conclude that these four of the sisters have a dialogue. With Irina Walker, it is more difficult to surmise, as she is a private person living in the United States; her children are also private persons, and they would not necessarily be interested in any sort of Romanian inheritance since they are members of the well-endowed Kreuger family. Only the children of Princesses Helen and Sophie are likely to be possible beneficiaries from the Royal Family's fortune in Romania.

Keeping in mind the restitution that was granted to King Michael and the seeming competent ability of the property administrators to manage these assets, I believe that the Royal House will certainly do all that is necessary to guarantee that this legacy remains within the family and as intact as is feasible.

Even if Princess Irina and her children and grandchildren live in the USA they have to inherit as all the others. There must be equal shares for each of the 5 Princesses.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In England and Wales, when it comes to individuals leaving property in their Wills, the ability to leave any property and assets on death to individuals, entities or organisations, in whatever proportion the deceased desires, is well known.

This is not the case in the rest of Europe, where “forced heirship rules” exist. These rules, which differ in their application across countries, impose succession principals, so that the deceased cannot control how property is passed down to spouses, children or other beneficiaries.

It is roughly known as the Code Napoléon, which ensures equal rights of all children to an inheritance and to give protection to the surviving spouse. ("I leave all my assets to my maîtresse" is impossible on the Continent).

 

[Cory]

Let's hope the rights of the 5 Princesses will be respected at the same level and no arrangements were done to prejudice any of them of an equal share.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Let's hope the rights of the 5 Princesses will be respected at the same level and no arrangements were done to prejudice any of them of an equal share.

Well, I hope King Michael places the royal domains (Savarsin, Peles, Pelisor, etc.) into the ownership of a Foundation, like so many royal families have done. Otherwise the value of these domains needs to be divided amongst the heirs. Imagine that the value of these domains is 15 million Euro, this means that 1/5th is for Princess Margareta and 4/5th for her sisters. When Princess Margareta wants to keep these domains, she needs to compensate her sisters for 12 million Euro. The best option to keep all together is to place it in a Foundation Historic Collections of the Royal House of Romania, with rights of usufruct to the descendants of King Michael. This prevents a fragmentation of the historic properties, this also prevents heavy succession taxes.

 

[Cory]

Well, I hope King Michael places the royal domains (Savarsin, Peles, Pelisor, etc.) into the ownership of a Foundation, like so many royal families have done. Otherwise the value of these domains needs to be divided amongst the heirs. Imagine that the value of these domains is 15 million Euro, this means that 1/5th is for Princess Margareta and 4/5th for her sisters. When Princess Margareta wants to keep these domains, she needs to compensate her sisters for 12 million Euro. The best option to keep all together is to place it in a Foundation Historic Collections of the Royal House of Romania, with rights of usufruct to the descendants of King Michael.

Probably the descendant will sell these properties anyhow. Probably the Medforth Mills and thevKreugers and the Knights and the Biarneix won't live in Romania so it will be easier to sell everything.
If Peles Castle was left to the King by King Ferdinand only because he was the new Sovereign than there will be a debate about the future of the castle.

 

[Cory]

This evening at 10 pm (Romanian time) Realitatea Tv will host a debate moderated by Rares Bogdan called "Monarchy, Extreme Emergency".Some of the guests of the debate will be the well known monarchists Marius Ghilezan, Marius Oprea but also the journalists Ion M. Ionita and Sorin Rosca Stanescu. There will be also somebody from ANRM, an association supporting fully the ideas of Elisabeta Palace.

 

[LadyRohan]

This evening at 10 pm (Romanian time) Realitatea Tv will host a debate moderated by Rares Bogdan called "Monarchy, Extreme Emergency".Some of the guests of the debate will be the well known monarchists Marilena Rotaru from the Movement for Kingdom and Crown, Marius Ghilezan, Marius Oprea but also the journalists Ion M. Ionita and Sorin Rosca Stanescu. There will be also somebody from ANRM, an association supporting fully the ideas of Elisabeta Palace.

It's sad that these words are used in conjunction with the monarchy, based on some peoples dislike for progress and change. 'Emergency', 'disaster', 'crisis'.
Certainly most people watching will be thinking that the in-fighting within the circles claiming to support the monarchy returning to Romania, will find it both abstract to speak of enabling the Royal Family to function better and more professionally, cooperating with the government, as a 'crisis' and an 'emergency', and I worry that if this process continues, it will do far more harm than good to the cause of monarchy, and make those who continue to fight against change, frankly look very silly.

It's one thing to feel one has history on ones side, but if one chooses to ignore the realities of today and try to connect with what ordinary people might think and see as the right way forward, there is no way to restore the monarchy in Romania.

 

[Cory]

The debate about Monarchy and the crisis situation generated by the law wanted by Elisabeta Palace in few moments at Realitatea Tv:

Realitatea TV Live | REALITATEA .NET

Except one person from ANRM nobody was really in the favour of the project of law as it is. Even the journalists that were not officially monarchists said the law was not even constitutional.

 

[CSENYC]

Even the journalists that were not officially monarchists said the law was not even constitutional.

Are they constitutional lawyers? If not, who cares what they think?

 

[Cory]

This project started its public debate. Certainly not only lawyers are called to speak about it but everybody. Journalists and historians can have an opinion too I presume.
In the Parliament where the project will finally arrive not everybody is a lawyer but everybody will have the right to vote it or not.
In order not to lose the time of the deputees and senators this project should be sent first to the specialists in constitutional law in order to say if it is not 100% unconstitutional.

 

[LadyRohan]

In order not to lose the time of the deputees and senators this project should be sent first to the specialists in constitutional law in order to say if it is not 100% unconstitutional.

That is just a delaying tactic in hope that more public debate will ensue and the government and Royal Family becomes unable to make an arrangement.
It would serve no positive purpose, but the law will, and the sooner it passes parliament, the better.

 

[Cory]

The reactions from the public and from the press regarding this project are not very positive but if the law is not constitutional the chapter will be closed in autumn.

 

[Benjamin]

What are the specific portions of the law that it is being claimed are unconstitutional?

 

[Cory]

The mere thing it speaks about a "Royal House" in a republic or the Parliament recognizing a certain "Head of the Royal House".

 

[Marengo]

What is wrong with that? The Portuguese state recognises Dom Duarte as head of the Portuguese RF ánd follows the succession rules; as was last assessed by the legal department of FA on April 17th 2006. I doubt many Portuguese will find this unconstitutional.

 

[Cory]

We speak about different countries,different Constitutions and certainly a different context.
Anyhow only the Constitutional Court can decide which parts of this project are unconstitutional or even if all the project is unconstitutional.
Another project with a different title and content wiuld have been easier to be accepted by everybody.

 

[Benjamin]

This law bothers some "monarchists" because it will legally recognize the 2007 Fundamental House Rules that were enacted by the King.

Such persons should probably become better informed about the princely family (and its moral character) that they advocate as eventual pretenders.

A good place to start would be by reading the recently released The Hohenzollern Case File by Marco Houston.

http://www.royalty-magazine.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=423

It arrived for me three days ago, and I finished it yesterday. Some of its revelations about the conduct of some members of the Hohenzollern family were rather surprising. I was intrigued to learn from private family correspondence that was published that the late Fürst Friedrich Wilhelm always supported King Michael and his family, including Princess Margarita and her husband Radu.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The talent "monarchists" have to derail the progress of the monarchist cause is beyond competition...

 

[Benjamin]

The mere thing it speaks about a "Royal House" in a republic or the Parliament recognizing a certain "Head of the Royal House".

What specific parts of the Romanian constitution do these passages violate?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] I was intrigued to learn from private family correspondence that was published that the late Fürst Friedrich Wilhelm always supported King Michael and his family, including Princess Margarita and her husband Radu.

The previous Fürst possibly took the Romanian case for a playful operetta of Lehár, Strauss or Kalmán. Der Zigeunerbaron or Die Csárdásfürstin. That work. He more or less closed his eyes when Mr Duda, without any drop of Hohenzollern blood, used the fancy title Prinz von Hohenzollern-Veringen. His son, the current Fürst, was not very amused and Radu soon left with the tail between the legs when indeed legal actions were started. How the precious Fürst possibly looked to things may be amusing, it is more relevant to learn if the current Fürst and his son, the Erbprinz, do have an opinion or not.

 

[Benjamin]

The previous Fürst possibly took the Romanian case for an operetta of Lehár. He more or less closed his eyes when Mr Duda, without any drop of Hohenzollern blood used the fancy title Prinz von Hohenzollern-Veringen. His son, the current Fürst was not very amused and Radu soon left with the tail between the legs when indeed legal actions were started. How the precious Fürst possibly looked to things may be amusing, it is more relevant how the current Fürst and his son, the Erbprinz, have an opinion or not.

Actually, until you read the book that I referenced, you will not fully understand the complex dynamics that have developed in this family. Obviously, the current Fürst has his own opinion of his cousin Princess Margarita's spouse. However, Karl along with Paul and Lia Lambrino were involved in quite a nasty hatchet job (that heavily relied on doctored documents, which is why their case imploded) on Radu via a libel lawsuit against Royalty Magazine.

The late Fürst did not "close his eyes" to Radu using the Hohenzollern name, since he himself issued the Urkunde that made this possible, this after writing to his cousin Michael to confirm that he saw fit to grant such a name to Radu. In fact, Friedrich Wilhelm invited King Michael, Queen Anne, Princess Margarita and the then Radu Duda to Sigmaringen in 1998. Based on his actual correspondence with the King, the late Fürst displayed warm familial feelings, which were always reciprocated...at least, until the rupture that is discussed in The Hohenzollern Case File.

Once you read the book, you will comprehend that this rupture was not desired by the Romanian Royal family or by the late Fürst; the current Fürst seems to have had his own agenda, though.

 

[Cory]

For those that believe Furst Karl had never been interested in any way in Romanian matters it is quite a surprise to fond out the contrary.