Questions about British Styles and Titles 2: Sep 2022 - Aug 2023


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The Royal Family's website has updated the Line of Succession with the new titles of the Wales family, leaving the tiles of the Sussex family as they were: Mr. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor and Miss Lilibet Mountbatten-Windsor. This may reflect the wishes of the Sussex family in the new reign.

Given the various sensitivities that have been made public on this matter, I imagine that the website staff are under strict orders not to make any changes until there's very clear word from a higher authority.
 
While I wish to see Edward and Sophie become DoE soon, I don't think it's the first priority for the newly King. And I don't think Edward would mind getting the DoE a bit later.
 
Interesting update on the RF website
https://www.royal.uk/succession

The line of Succession

SOVEREIGN

1. The Prince of Wales

2. Prince George of Wales

3. Princess Charlotte of Wales

4. Prince Louis of Wales

5. The Duke of Sussex

6. Master Archie Mountbatten-Windsor

7. Miss Lilibet Mountbatten-Windsor


8. The Duke of York

9. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi

10. Miss Sienna Mapelli Mozzi

They've updated William and Catherine's pages to The Prince and Princess of Wales too.

No Prince Archie of Sussex nor Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Does it mean they get same treatment as Louise and James of Wessex?
 
Interesting update on the RF website
https://www.royal.uk/succession



They've updated William and Catherine's pages to The Prince and Princess of Wales too.

No Prince Archie of Sussex nor Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Does it mean they get same treatment as Louise and James of Wessex?

As grandchildren of the monarch in the male line, they're entitled to the HRH Prince/Princess, but given how Harry and Meghan don't want to be working members of the firm, it's doubtful their kids would assume their rightful titles and stay plain Master/Miss.
 
Interesting update on the RF website
https://www.royal.uk/succession



They've updated William and Catherine's pages to The Prince and Princess of Wales too.

No Prince Archie of Sussex nor Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Does it mean they get same treatment as Louise and James of Wessex?
I don't think the Sussex family are the priority right now, but the direct heir to the throne definitely is.

It's also highly possible that when things calm down a bit we'll see more information on the subject, as it might've been either their parents wish or - like it was wildly speculated - only the heir's children will get the HRHs and prince/princess titles.
 
I have been told the Letter Patents are ready to be signed - so it seems unlikely that it wait for the coronation - but I think it will wait for after the funeral.
That been said I am told that there is 3 letter patents. I expected one to be the Prince of Wales title, Edinburgh title , or another dukedom and the last the HRH titles. Does anyone expect anything else? I am also expecting the announcement after the funeral about the retirement of the Duke of Kent and Princess Alexander, but that might wait till the coronation.
I think they want the focus on the Queen and the new monarch now - the remodeling and reduction of the royal family will be another day.
 
I think eventually the BRF will be scaled down the way the Norwegian and Swedish Royal Families have been, with the HRH going to the sovereign's spouse, their children, and the spouse/children of the heir.
 
I don't believe King Charles will live along as the late Queen. So his window of opportunity for his Kingship is limited.

The fact that he so swiftly made William Prince of Wales speaks volumes. He should imo, fulfill his parents wishes and give the Wessexes the promised Duchy of Edinburgh. That's a quick fix. As mentioned before it will cause King Charles nothing.


LOL... Now that the Edinburgh-title is merged with the Crown, any king can recreate it. If poor Charles does not survive his mother's funeral (as you seem to imply on hurrying him up before his mother is even buried), the next king William could create his uncle as "duke of Edinburgh". I personally don't see any need to hurry before the funeral and mourning is over and a bit of time has gone on. I don't actually see the queen leaving Letters Patent for the title to her eldest son to sign as soon as the title merged with the Crown (and he thus lost it!). Now that would be shabby to the first Duke of Edinburgh, to his eldest son and to the son the queen and the Duke wanted the title to go.



Another question: will the Duke of York remarry his fomrer wife now? Would she have him again? Advantage in case of a remarriage would be that "The Duke and Duchess of York" could hope for the forgetfulness of the public with all those new titles in the new reign and go on to live like they want (as long as they do it quietly... At least that would be king Charles' wish I guess)


Another thought: I am guessing Charles never thought about doing something to remove the gift of the title/style of HRH, Prince/ess of X from the grandchildren of a monarch because that would have left dear queen Victoria without a Royal title from birth, even though she was the heiress presumptive of her uncle (and wasn't Elizabeth II. born when her grandfather was king, so this would have left her without a Royal title as well?). When the late queen couldn't stand the idea that the heir's heir's children wouzld be without a Royal title? Though I guess he will leave it to William to supply his daughter Charlotte with a title of her choice. But maybe she would prefer The Princess Royal once Anne is dead (and buried!!!) or marrying a peer, so she could become HRH Princess Charlotte, the...(Lady, Viscountess....) Z.



Though when we discuss (not sure if we did it anywhere yet) that if parliament had upheld the Third Succession Act (including the right of the king to will the throne to any relative) and later King Henry VIII's will and testament (which put the line of his sister Mary before that of her elder sister Margaret) amd the marriage of Lady Katherine Grey to Edward Seymour wasn't illegitimate (it only was because of Elizabeth I. political reasons), then the currant queen of England would be Teresa, 13th Lady Kinloss (a Scottish title, btw). So...



Let's be glad all happened because the English parliament realised that it would be better for both kingdoms to have the same king or queen and offered the throne to James VL. of Scotland, the heir in the unchanged (so more common line of inheritance) via the elder sister Margaret and then that they decided to give the throne to a smaller Protestant German dynasty which was safe and established when the alternative to the Protestant Stuarts were the Catholic Stuarts. It so makes sense!

And finally, when those "male-line, real blood Stuarts" had died out, why switch (again) to an Italian which was involved in internal wars back then? Plus the fact that the "Jacobite heir" had just (5 years ago) renounced his claims to his own throne, had no children from his marriage to the sister of guilliotinated king Louis XVI.of France) but hadin the beginning of the revolution been forced to held up the treaties he had made with his brother-in-law, so was actively involved in the first revolutionary wars till his abdication! While his brother, the next king, was disposed by Napoleon- And both never even claimed the Uk-throne!



While the "Georges" were already established and had enough children to fill in a line of succession with male heirs from the male line? Well, at that time it was an "heiress presumptive" to the Prince of Wales but after he were some male heirs (till it became queen Victoria ....you get what I mean here? And the Uk fighting off Napoleon?


So for me it makes sense that Charles is now "king Charles III", that there was no "Charles III." before him (even though lawfully Bonnie Prince Charles would have been that) and seeing as the kind does (he has an academic degree as an Historian after all!), all is well (for me) as it is. And will be once Charles had time to bury his "Darling Mama" together with his Darling wife, Queen Camilla.
 
I don't think the Sussex family are the priority right now, but the direct heir to the throne definitely is.

It's also highly possible that when things calm down a bit we'll see more information on the subject, as it might've been either their parents wish or - like it was wildly speculated - only the heir's children will get the HRHs and prince/princess titles.


I just mentioned that and the fact that in such a case neither princess Victoria of Kent or princess Elizabeth of York would have been princesses or HRH! Okay, nowadays a firstborn daughter will not be supplanted by a younger brother but still I don't think that ending the title/style-rules as they did in 1917 is so bad at all. So Mrs. Mapelli Mozzi and Mrs. Brookbanks are known as princesses of the blood Royal? So what? As long as the grandson of a duke (with marquess as a secondary title) can be known as "Lord X family name), I don't see the need to do the same with a child of the male-line blood Royal! Royal blood is something different and as long as y country has a monarchy, they should be proud of their Royal blood and the closeness to the throne it represents.
 
Personally, I think that the children of the heir, and the children of the heir's heir should get the HRH title, and all other grandchildren of the monarch should be titled Lord/Lady to denote their proximity to the monarch, regardless of male or female line of descent. Yes, that would strip Beatrice & Eugenie of their HRH titles, but it would end the discussion about James, Louise, Archie & Lilibet's titles, plus it would recognize that Peter & Zara are also equally descended from the monarch. Make it applicable to all descendants of QEII, so that you don't strip the Kents or Gloucesters of their HRH titles in thanks for their years of service to the crown.
 
Lord/Lady what, though? These children do have parents. If we take Harry’s children as an example, Lili is, as a Duke’s daughter Lady Lilibet already. Archie has an honorary earldom that he doesn’t use so what use would calling him Lord Archie so? He’s heir a dukedom already.
 
I think eventually the BRF will be scaled down the way the Norwegian and Swedish Royal Families have been, with the HRH going to the sovereign's spouse, their children, and the spouse/children of the heir.

The Nirwegian and swedish family go about it in different ways.
Norway: HRH only for direct heirs. Other children of the monarch or heirs are prince/princess but without the style of royal highness. No titles for grandchildren other than by the heir.

Sweden: HRH as well as title of prince(ss) and a personal ducal tirle for all all children of the monarch and heir. Title of prince and princess as well as a personal ducal title for all grandchildren but no style of HRH.
 
Lord/Lady what, though? These children do have parents. If we take Harry’s children as an example, Lili is, as a Duke’s daughter Lady Lilibet already. Archie has an honorary earldom that he doesn’t use so what use would calling him Lord Archie so? He’s heir a dukedom already.

Windsor-Mountbatten or, in the case of Bea, Eugenie & Zara, their married name. Just exactly as how Lady Louise is now. Just like Freddy Windsor, as the great-grandson of a monarch is Lord Freddy.

I suppose that, as daughters of a duke, both Bea & Eug are already entitled to be called Lady also.

It just seems to me that the honorifics they have should be gender-neutral and recognize that they are all grandchildren of a monarch. It also leaves William free to NOT confer a royal dukedom on either Louis or Charlotte while still recognizing their children are the grandchildren of a monarch.
 
I wonder about counsellors of state. (Feel free to move if it belongs in another forum, but I didn't find a thread for it. If the monarchs spouse and the four first in line (21 or older) is eligible, that would mean: Queen Consort Camilla, Prince William, the Duke of Sussex, the Duke of York and Princess Beatrice. But Harry lives in the US, and neither Andrew or Beatrice are working royals. So are they excluded? And does that mean that Eugenie and Edward could be in?
 
Counsellors of State comprise the first four adults in the line of succession to the Throne. Edward is too far down.

Eugenie isn’t a working royal either. And so long as a Counsellor of State has a domicile in the UK they are eligible. Harry has Frogmore Cottage at Windsor. Working or not working doesn’t apply.
 
The wording is 'is domiciled' not 'has a domicile'. However, it seems that the interpretation is rather broad.

So, yes, it seems Harry hasn't been diqualified. Nonetheless, only 2 CoS are needed at the same time, so I am pretty sure they will pick Camilla and William if need be. And if one of those two would not be available, Beatrice would be the most neutral alternative (until George comes of age).
 
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Thanks for the clarification about the counsellors of state. I wish that the Princess Royal would have been eligible. I think she would have done an excellent job in that position.
 
I have been told the Letter Patents are ready to be signed - so it seems unlikely that it wait for the coronation - but I think it will wait for after the funeral.
That been said I am told that there is 3 letter patents. I expected one to be the Prince of Wales title, Edinburgh title , or another dukedom and the last the HRH titles. Does anyone expect anything else? I am also expecting the announcement after the funeral about the retirement of the Duke of Kent and Princess Alexander, but that might wait till the coronation.
I think they want the focus on the Queen and the new monarch now - the remodeling and reduction of the royal family will be another day.

What is the source of your information?
 
Interesting update on the RF website
https://www.royal.uk/succession



They've updated William and Catherine's pages to The Prince and Princess of Wales too.

No Prince Archie of Sussex nor Princess Lilibet of Sussex. Does it mean they get same treatment as Louise and James of Wessex?

To me it seems as if they won't be addressed as HRH Prince(ss) X of Sussex at least because if that were the case they could have made the change at this point as well as technically that would be their new title since Thursday (the 'Cornwall' change and the King and Queen Consort changes that were also automatic were also made immediately). So, it wouldn't make sense not to make this change if it was considered automatic according to the current LPs. Only if apparently a different decision has been made by Charles, it would make sense not to make any changes to their names but wait for some kind of announcement.

Whether Charles intends to strip them of their titles or indeed go the 'Wessex route' (which I don't think is something that Harry and Meghan have much say in - even though it it happens it will be stated as 'with their agreement' or something like that - but similar language was also used (voluntarily agreed or so) when Andrew had to give up various things, which certainly wasn't his idea) remains to be seen.
 
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Thanks for the clarification about the counsellors of state. I wish that the Princess Royal would have been eligible. I think she would have done an excellent job in that position.

She was eligible between 15 August 1971 – 21 June 2003 (when William replaced her on his 21st birthday).

See wikipedia for an overview of all dates.
 
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Given the various sensitivities that have been made public on this matter, I imagine that the website staff are under strict orders not to make any changes until there's very clear word from a higher authority.

I agree with you. As there will be a great deal of public interest and commentary either way, perhaps some have deemed it best to delay updating that section of the page to avoid distracting from the mourning of the late Queen and the accession of the new King.

Even if there hadn't been such sensitivities, the website has a history of monthslong delays to updates. For example, the listing of members of the royal family still includes the Duke of Edinburgh and "Mrs. Peter Phillips", even now. It also took a day or two for the reference to "The Duke of Cambridge" to be changed on the listed line of succession, as you pointed out earlier.

Personally, I think that the children of the heir, and the children of the heir's heir should get the HRH title, and all other grandchildren of the monarch should be titled Lord/Lady to denote their proximity to the monarch, regardless of male or female line of descent. Yes, that would strip Beatrice & Eugenie of their HRH titles, but it would end the discussion about James, Louise, Archie & Lilibet's titles, plus it would recognize that Peter & Zara are also equally descended from the monarch.

There could, and I suspect there would, still be insinuations that the reform was implemented as a backdoor method of stripping Archie and Lilibet of their HRH Prince/ss.


The Nirwegian and swedish family go about it in different ways.
Norway: HRH only for direct heirs. Other children of the monarch or heirs are prince/princess but without the style of royal highness. No titles for grandchildren other than by the heir.

The Norwegian royal family apparently hasn't clarified whether male-line grandchildren not in direct line (children of Prince Sverre Magnus would be the first) would be treated differently, but all the Norwegian royal experts and royal watchers seem to expect that they will be untitled, as you said.


I wonder about counsellors of state. (Feel free to move if it belongs in another forum, but I didn't find a thread for it. [...]

I see that your question was answered, but for future reference, here is the thread on Counsellors of State.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/counsellors-of-state-7928.html

And here is the Regency Act of 1937 which codifies the Counsellor of State system.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw8and1Geo6/1/16
 
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Please, do cite a source of these "rumors" you insist are out there. I've been following this discussion since well before Prince Philip passed away 18 months ago as well as after and there's been very little to substantiate this idea that Charles will not honor his parents wishes and issue an LP making Edward the next Duke of Edinburgh.

The source of the rumor was an anonymous acquaintance of the then-Prince of Wales who spoke to Roya Nikkhah, royal editor for The Times, in July 2021.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-but-his-brother-is-not-on-his-side-77v25z3b0
https://archive.ph/0XuTJ

A representative of the then Prince of Wales replied to the claims, stating that "no final decisions have been taken".

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."​

https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/

Of course, "no final decisions" is not an outright rejection of his parents' wishes, but it is a step back from the unambiguous statement in 1999 that Prince Charles had "agreed" to honor his parents' wishes:

"The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown."​

https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...ews/title_of_hrh_the_prince_edward/40309.html


As king he is the found of all honours and this [Prince of Wales] is the only title that he couldn't just hand out to anyone but only to William. All other titles -that are currently not in use- are free to give but this is the one exception.

Strictly speaking, I'm not aware of any law which would prohibit the King from bestowing the title on a person other than his heir. Of course, doing so would be a major breach with tradition and it would be perceived, with good reason, as a snub to the lawful heir to the throne.
 
I agree with you. As there will be a great deal of public interest and commentary either way, perhaps some have deemed it best to delay updating that section of the page to avoid distracting from the mourning of the late Queen and the accession of the new King.

By publishing an updated (or partially updated?) line of succession at the official website, they have already unfortunately attracted a great deal of public interest and commentary on the status of the Sussex children's titles, which is something that should have been avoided in my opinion in the first 48 years of the new reign.

Either way, we will probably get clarification on this matter at some point soon.
 
LOL... Now that the Edinburgh-title is merged with the Crown, any king can recreate it. If poor Charles does not survive his mother's funeral (as you seem to imply on hurrying him up before his mother is even buried), the next king William could create his uncle as "duke of Edinburgh". I personally don't see any need to hurry before the funeral and mourning is over and a bit of time has gone on. I don't actually see the queen leaving Letters Patent for the title to her eldest son to sign as soon as the title merged with the Crown (and he thus lost it!). Now that would be shabby to the first Duke of Edinburgh, to his eldest son and to the son the queen and the Duke wanted the title to go.



Another question: will the Duke of York remarry his fomrer wife now? Would she have him again? Advantage in case of a remarriage would be that "The Duke and Duchess of York" could hope for the forgetfulness of the public with all those new titles in the new reign and go on to live like they want (as long as they do it quietly... At least that would be king Charles' wish I guess)


Another thought: I am guessing Charles never thought about doing something to remove the gift of the title/style of HRH, Prince/ess of X from the grandchildren of a monarch because that would have left dear queen Victoria without a Royal title from birth, even though she was the heiress presumptive of her uncle (and wasn't Elizabeth II. born when her grandfather was king, so this would have left her without a Royal title as well?). When the late queen couldn't stand the idea that the heir's heir's children wouzld be without a Royal title? Though I guess he will leave it to William to supply his daughter Charlotte with a title of her choice. But maybe she would prefer The Princess Royal once Anne is dead (and buried!!!) or marrying a peer, so she could become HRH Princess Charlotte, the...(Lady,viscountess.


I hope that Charles will continue to modernize the Monarchy so that when Charlotte is an adult it will be less sexist. She should be granted her own Dukedom in her own right. She should not have the peerage given to her spouse. That said, I think she will become The Princess Royal, Duke of xyz .
 
The BBC this afternoon referred to Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.

Legally speaking, that's what they are, same as Princess Louise and Prince James, but there's a difference between what they're entitled to use and what they'll choose to use.
 
The BBC this afternoon referred to Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.

[.....]
Archie and Lili both have titles now according to rules that were applied to other royal children as well [.....]
 
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Who is the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh?

Does the title merge with King Charles' other titles, or does it go to William or Edward?
 
At the present time, nobody is the Duke of Edinburgh.

The title is now merged with the Crown, because the previous holder of the peerage is now the sovereign. It could now be granted anew, to any person of the sovereign's choosing.

Time will tell if Charles does indeed grant it to Edward, as per previous plans.
 
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