Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

Quick question (or two) about Ernst August of Hanover. We are discussing him in the Monaco forums..........

He is considered a Prince of Great Britian and Ireland correct and not a Prince of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland (like Phillip and everyone else). Title restored by his father (but not recognized the Queen nor his dukedoms due to the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917).

Also, does a non defunct HRH (Hanover and Great Britain and Ireland) outrank a HSH. Because the HRH is defunct, that says no to me but I want to make sure.

The Hanovers formally lost their right to all British peerages, styles and titles with the Titles Deprivation Act. George V also issued the Letters Patent of 1917 further limiting the style and rank of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK to the children of The Sovereign and the male-line grandchildren.

In 1957, the Head of the House of Hanover issued a decree stating all members of the House would continue to bear the style of "Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland" and "His/Her Royal Highness". It had no legal effect and was simply a matter of courtesy titles. Legally, Ernst-August is "Ernst-August, Prinz von Hannover". The Queen has never objected formally to the decree and the family continues to seek her approval to marry under the Royal Marriages Act.

In Monaco, Caroline is HSH Hereditary Princess Caroline de Monaco as the heir to the throne. Regardless of her birthright rank of Serene Highness, she outranks her husband who is a member of a non-reigning House and holds no status in the principality other than as her husband. While she chooses to use her married rank as Her Royal Highness, this is simply a preference on her part and signifies no precedence either way.

 

[NotAPretender]

Would you have denied Diana the title Princess of Wales following her divorce as well? Because basically you are saying here that divorcing the son of a reigning monarch should negate the divorcee from using the title of the former spouse - simply because that spouse is a member of the royal family.

Had Diana not been the mother of the future king? Yes. One cannot compare the status of Diana to the status of Sarah in that regard. And I think that point-forward, if/when divorces ensure in similar situation, steps will be taken to solidify this, so that no future ex-spouse of a royal can play quite so free-and-easy with Royal connections as does Sarah Ferguson.

When Diana and Sarah were stripped of the HRH, the message was that neither of them were considered members of the royal family any longer.

Unless, of course, someone in that position continued to use the title/style/rank incorrectly so as to mislead and give the impression that one is still considered a member. As does Sarah with her The Duchess of York or the Duchess of York, when she is not entitled to either version of "the."

If anyone was pulling purse-strings in 1936, it was the Duke of Windsor. Not only did he make his brother agree to an annual salary.

Which was revocable. The BRF certainly made sure that the D of W knew what his boundaries were (particularly after he had his little meet and greet with Herr Hitler) and what the consequences would be. Once the payoff for the estates had taken place, no more from that source.

Forfeit can only be accomplished by an Act of Attainder against the titleholder.

'Forfeit' was not meant as you have taken it.

She is not a member of the royal family, and her actions do not reflect either way on the BRF.

She continues the misuse of the York name, as we've discussed exhaustively. So yes, in continuing to link herself to the BRF, her misdeeds do reflect on the BRF. Her antics should not reflect on them - but they do.

 

[branchg]

Sarah does tend to allow people to call her "The" Duchess of York, especially in America, but the British press often refers to that way as well, even though she is no longer a Duchess at all.

The Queen undoubtedly still has affection for her former daughter-in-law, who after all, is the mother of her two York granddaughters. It is speculated HM quietly paid off much of Sarah's recent debts after Andrew negotiated with her creditors to accept a settlement. She continues to live at Royal Lodge with The Queen's blessing.

Regardless, she is the former wife of a Peer and automatically entitled to remain "Sarah, Duchess of York" until she remarries. I highly doubt the Crown is going to seek to change the styles of divorced wives in the Peerage over commercial or personal activities.

 

[Lumutqueen]

The Queen undoubtedly still has affection for her former daughter-in-law, who after all, is the mother of her two York granddaughters.

I doubt she has any affection for her former daughter in law, and is 'helping' her out of pity and at the request of her son and granddaughters.

 

[Lady Ann]

Not certain what all the fuss is about here. Kate looked really fine for the occasion. The children may have been expecting something more as they usually grow up the fantasy that Princes and Princesses wear crowns and extravagant clothing. However, Kate is simply not an "over the top" girl nor is she an actual Princess yet. In any case, when meeting people, more especially children, it is the warmth from the heart that really matters.

While I agree she was dressed just fine for this event, and agree about the children expecting more .....I am not sure of the "not a princess yet comment" she is not Styled or Titled Princess but she is a Princess of the U K by marriage..also I thought and I am sure someone will correct me if I am worng that a Royal Duke/Duchess title was Higher then Prince/Princess..?...

 

[mia_lanes]

While I agree she was dressed just fine for this event, and agree about the children expecting more .....I am not sure of the "not a princess yet comment" she is not Styled or Titled Princess but she is a Princess of the U K by marriage..also I thought and I am sure someone will correct me if I am worng that a Royal Duke/Duchess title was Higher then Prince/Princess..?...

As I understand it, in UK, you can only be called a princess by royal birth as in the case of Princess Anne and Princesses Beatrice and Eugiene. Many people called Diana, Princess Diana, even though the correct title was Princess of Wales because of her marriage to Prince of Wales. At this moment in time both William and Catherine are only known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge until William becomes Prince of Wales and Catherine will be known as Princess of Wales. But I suspect many people will call her Princess Catherine.

The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

 

[Excalibur]

As I understand it, in UK, you can only be called a princess by royal birth as in the case of Princess Anne and Princesses Beatrice and Eugiene. Many people called Diana, Princess Diana, even though the correct title was Princess of Wales because of her marriage to Prince of Wales. At this moment in time both William and Catherine are only known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge until William becomes Prince of Wales and Catherine will be known as Princess of Wales. But I suspect many people will call her Princess Catherine.

The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

As she is married to a prince, Catherine is most certainly a princess. Her title, upon marriage, became HRH Princess William of Wales, The Duchess of Cambridge, etc. She chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cambridge, in much the same way that Camilla chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cornwall, albeit for different reasons I presume.

As the hierarchy is ordered by title, not style, Catherine would take her place amongst the other princesses.

 

[Lady Ann]

As she is married to a prince, Catherine is most certainly a princess. Her title, upon marriage, became HRH Princess William of Wales, The Duchess of Cambridge, etc. She chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cambridge, in much the same way that Camilla chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cornwall, albeit for different reasons I presume.

As the hierarchy is ordered by title, not style, Catherine would take her place amongst the other princesses.

This was my understanding as well, Not Styled Princess but, technically a Princess of the UK. Except she did not choose to be called the Duchess of Cambridge it was the title givin to her husband at marriage. It is a very different thing than the Duchess of Cornwall....

 

[Lumutqueen]

She chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cambridge, in much the same way that Camilla chooses to style herself The Duchess of Cornwall, albeit for different reasons I presume.

Catherine doesn't choose to be known as the Duchess of Cambridge, she is the Duchess of Cambridge it's her title. Camilla has chosen to use The Duchess of Cornwall as her main title because presumably she doesn't want to anger anyone by being known as The Princess of Wales.

 

[expat]

As I understand it, in UK, you can only be called a princess by royal birth as in the case of Princess Anne and Princesses Beatrice and Eugiene. Many people called Diana, Princess Diana, even though the correct title was Princess of Wales because of her marriage to Prince of Wales. At this moment in time both William and Catherine are only known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge until William becomes Prince of Wales and Catherine will be known as Princess of Wales. But I suspect many people will call her Princess Catherine.

The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

Here is a good site to see. You forgot Marquess/Marchioness.


Titles and Orders of Precedence « Edwardian Promenade

 

[texankitcat]

As I understand it, in UK, you can only be called a princess by royal birth as in the case of Princess Anne and Princesses Beatrice and Eugiene. Many people called Diana, Princess Diana, even though the correct title was Princess of Wales because of her marriage to Prince of Wales. At this moment in time both William and Catherine are only known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge until William becomes Prince of Wales and Catherine will be known as Princess of Wales. But I suspect many people will call her Princess Catherine.

The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

I don't think that heirarchy is correct where a Royal Prince by birth is given a Royal dukedom or an earldom. My understanding is that they are still Royal Prince's by birth, and as such they do not lose their heirarchy. The titles they receive upon marriage are gifts from the Queen and have nothing to do with their private or public presidence. Where nobility is concerned, there is definitely that heirachy.

If this is incorrect perhaps someone with more knowledge can chime in?

 

[mia_lanes]

Maybe I should have word it better (English is not my 1st language). I had meant, when William do become Prince William of Wales, Catherine will become Princess William of Wales but not Princess Catherine of Wales.

Thanks for the link. Most of my general knowledge has been acquired through many years of reading sometimes it's easy to forget.

 

[Baroness of Books]

This is how I understand it: William was given the title of Duke of Cambridge so Kate would specifically not be addressed as Princess William, but the Duchess of Cambridge. Therefore that is her title, not Princess William, although she does has the rank of a princess. And William is still a prince, with the additional title of a royal duke.

When or if William becomes the Prince of Wales, Kate will be addressed as the Princess of Wales. At no time is she ever addressed as Princess Catherine.

 

[Royal_Eagle]

This is how I understand it: William was given the title of Duke of Cambridge so Kate would specifically not be addressed as Princess William, but the Duchess of Cambridge. Therefore that is her title, not Princess William, although she does has the rank of a princess. And William is still a prince, with the additional title of a royal duke.

When or if William becomes the Prince of Wales, Kate will be addressed as the Princess of Wales. At no time is she ever addressed as Princess Catherine.

I'm not sure we really know the intention behind the Queen's awarding of the Dukedom to Prince William. It is tradition for senior royal family members to receive a Dukedom on their marriage, so what the Queen did was in line with tradition. There were some reports that Prince William wanted Catherine to be made a full Princess in her right, although not confirmed. I personally find it hard to believe that Prince William think he could convince the Queen to make Catherine a Princess in her right despite years of precedent against that kind of move otherwise. So I'm assuming that the primary (maybe only) reason he got the Dukedom was out of tradition and nothing more.

 

[cmkrcwi]

Kate is married to a prince so she is a princess by marriage and only by marriage. However, since her husband received the title of Duke of Cambridge upon his marriage, she is Duchess of Cambridge.

IOW, her name is Catherine, her style and rank are HRH and Princess of the United Kingdom. Her title is The Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[Baroness of Books]

Yes, there were unconfirmed reports that William wanted to refuse a title, that it didn't suit his current lifestyle, and wanted to remain a prince, wishing Kate to have the title of princess in her own right. I wouldn't be surprised if he did try to convince the Queen of that since he's obviously a man with strong opinions, but that would have caused too many other problems for blood royal princesses and princesses by marriage. But the only other option for Kate to be called princess was if she were known as Princess William which was awkward-sounding unless another title was granted. So whether or not discussions took place about conferring a title, tradition was definitely upheld.

 

[yvr girl]

If William had not been made Duke of Cambridge, Catherine would have been known as Princess William. Since he now has a royal dukedom, and is official known as Duke of Cambridge, she is now his duchess. He is still Prince William. Some people still refer to him as such, because they are accustomed to that title. No one calls Catherine "Princess William" because 1. She has never been known as that since she gained the Duchess title at the same time, 2. It seems odd to call a woman by that title.

The reason Prince Michael's wife is know as Princess Michael is because he has no other title.

 

[PrincePatrick]

So the question of Titles was on my mind when I was looking up information on the late Queen Mother tonight and I came across the list of her honours that were read out at her funeral:

"Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness."

At what point was she created a Princess in her own right? Or is this technically the case of all Queens Dowager, but they're forever known by their more senior Title of Queen?

Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on this.

PS- the quote came from the Wikipedia page on her list of Titles and Honours
List of titles and honours of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PrincessKaimi]

When Henry VIII divorced Catherine of Aragon, he allowed her the title of Dowager Princess of Wales. I would assume that, unlike the Queen Mum, since Catherine lost her other higher titles, that was the highest title left to her. With the Queen Mum, the Princess title would come from having been married to a Prince (although I admit it's strange that her first name is used with Princess...perhaps it is the custom though, with widows).

 

[PrincePatrick]

Yea it suggests a subtle, yet purposeful distinction between Queens Regnant and Queens Consort. Superficially they're both Her Majesty, The Queen during their lives, and unless you peak at all their other titles and honours you might not notice a difference, but funerals are the final place to leave a distinction. And, referring to her as a Princess with the title of Queen Consort, versus A QUEEN...PERIOD, is one way to achieve that distinction. It'd be interesting to see if the reading of titles and honours from Queen Mary's funeral, if it still exists, reads the same.

 

[Kataryn]

This is how I understand it: William was given the title of Duke of Cambridge so Kate would specifically not be addressed as Princess William, but the Duchess of Cambridge. Therefore that is her title, not Princess William, although she does has the rank of a princess. And William is still a prince, with the additional title of a royal duke.

When or if William becomes the Prince of Wales, Kate will be addressed as the Princess of Wales. At no time is she ever addressed as Princess Catherine.

Catherine uses her Christian name only in cases she needs a family name. Then she is by decree of the queen about her descendants who need a family name Catherine Mountbatten-Windsor. But these cases are very, very rare. Because once you have a title you use it. Catherine as wife of HRH Prince William of Wales, Duke of Cambridge etc. shares his titles and style. Thus she is HRH Princess William of Wales, Duchess of Cambridge etc., in short HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. In case of a divorce, HM decreed that the former wife should loose the sharing of his style and titles but could do as it is usus with divorced wifes of peers. Thus the former HRH The Princess of Wales became Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor, Princess of Wales on divorce, in short Diana, Princess of Wales.

There is debate about the question if the title of a Prince/ss of Scotland still exists except for the heir to the throne and his wife. But even then Catherien would go by the more senior title of "of Cambridge".

Note: the title prince/princess despicts minor members of the Royal House. If the prince/princess is not a child but a grandchild of the monarch, the line within the Royal House is added. So it is "The Prince Charles" but Prince William "of Wales" (as he is from the Wales, the senior line, of the House) or Princess Beatrice "of York", as she is a grandchild of the monarch from her fathers "York"-line. But in any case these princes/ses are only minor members of the family. In case of women, with the exception of the eldest daughter of the monarch, no further titles are on offer as it was common to grant the husband on their marriage day a peerage (if he didn't have any of his own) which the princess could share. Think HRH Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. For princes of the senior Wales-line (as future children of the monarch) or children of the monarch a peerage is given on their wedding day: the day they officially are not only members of the RF but elevated to a peer of the monarch.

So being a Royal peer is much more than being just a member of the RF with the right to the title of prince. Thus William was elevated to that rank and of course uses this depiction of his higher rank. And Catherine follows him. HRH The Duchess of Cambridge is a higher title than HRH Princess William of Wales. And William of course is still Prince William of the Wales-line of the Royal House, but he uses this title not any more. But he did no loose it in anay way. He will only loose it the moment his father becomes king and change it to the higher title of "The Prince William" as child of the monarch.

 

[wbenson]

At what point was she created a Princess in her own right?

I don't think it was meant in that way. One of the OED definitions for "prince" is "A (male) sovereign ruler; a monarch, a king. Now chiefly arch[aic] and hist[orical], or in rhetorical use." In that same sense, the accession proclamations for new monarchs refer to the new king or queen as a "royal prince(ss)." The Queen was called "the royal princess Elizabeth the second" in hers, for example. One of the lesser-used verses of the national anthem also calls her "our mother, prince and friend." Sometimes a prince could just be any particularly eminent person. Dukes are sometimes called "Most High, Potent, and Noble Princes" in formal documents.

 

[PrincePatrick]

Thank you so much Wbenson! That makes perfect sense! I think we try so hard to make sure we know exactly which box these royals fit into that it's easy to forget that some titles have different meanings, depending on the context.

And William of course is still Prince William of the Wales-line of the Royal House, but he uses this title not any more. But he did no loose it in anay way. He will only loose it the moment his father becomes king and change it to the higher title of "The Prince William" as child of the monarch.

Moreover they will become known as Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge immediately upon Charles' accession, if only for a brief moment in time until they become Their Royal Highnesses The Prince and Princess of Wales (EEEEK! Can't wait!!! ...Not that I would be happy upon Her Majesty's passing)

It will be interesting to see what title they're going by when their children are born. Say Charles is King and the the children are born before they are created Prince and Princess of Wales...will the children forever be Princes and Princesses of Cornwall and Cambridge until William is King, or will they switch to Princes and Princesses of Wales. Logic would tell me they switch to Wales, but how confusing for all involved...They go from being "The Cambridges" to "The Cornwall-Cambridges" back to "The Waleses" and finally it doesn't matter anymore, their children will just be "The Prince" or "The Princess"

 

[Lumutqueen]

As for the "Cornwall-Cambridges" somehow I doubt they would merge the two names. So when Charles becomes King, William will be known as The Duke of Cornwall and separately The Duke of Cambridge I believe. Then eventually The Prince of Wales (if that happens). Depending upon when they have children, they may not be known as Princes and Princess' until their grandfather is King.
I don't think such surname changing would actually go on, they'd find a way for them to be known as one surname and that's it.

 

[Warren]

The hierarchy is as follows:
Prince/Princess
Duke/Duchess
Earl/Countess
Viscount/Viscountess
Count/Countess

Please don't confuse or mix titles and ranking of the British Nobility with titles and precedence of members of the Royal Family.
'Duke-Marquess-Earl-Viscount-Baron' in that order relates to the nobility; royal hierarchy is generally determined by distance from the Sovereign, not by title.

Prince Edward may have the title 'Earl of Wessex' but in precedence he comes before both the Princesses of York and the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent because he is a son of the Sovereign while the female Yorks are granddaughters, and Gloucester & Kent are cousins.

Prince Michael of Kent, being the youngest son of the 4th son of George V has lower precedence than the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent because Gloucester is a son of the 3rd son and Kent is Michael's older brother. It would make no difference if Prince Michael acquired another title or titles, his position would remain the same.

NB.. the title of Count does not exist in the British Nobility, the equivalent is Earl. The confusion arises because the wife of an Earl is a Countess.
.

 

[Iluvbertie]

As for the "Cornwall-Cambridges" somehow I doubt they would merge the two names. So when Charles becomes King, William will be known as The Duke of Cornwall and separately The Duke of Cambridge I believe. Then eventually The Prince of Wales (if that happens). Depending upon when they have children, they may not be known as Princes and Princess' until their grandfather is King.
I don't think such surname changing would actually go on, they'd find a way for them to be known as one surname and that's it.

The precedent for the changing of names happened in 1901.

George V started that year as HRH The Duke of York. From late January until early November he was officially known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (they were combined) and then from November as HRH The Prince of Wales. Then in May 1910 HM The King.

His wife took the feminine forms of those titles of course and the children changed as well.

So the future Edward VIII and George VI and their siblings went from HRH Prince/Princess xxxx of York to HRH Prince/Princess xxxxx of Cornwall and York to HRH Prince/Princess xxxxx of Wales and finally HRH The Prince/Princess xxxxxx.

As it happened then it would happen to William and Kate's offspring as well.

 

[Lumutqueen]

But the name merging isn't actually set in stone, there's just a previous case where it occurred.

 

[Zonk]

Actually, one of Victoria's sons also had two Dukedoms.

Alfred, was known as His Royal Highness The Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, Earl of Kent, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, etc.

In addition, Frederick, Prince of Wales was known as Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh before he became Prince of Wales in 1729. He never became King but his son ruled as George III.

I believe there are other precedents as well. So if and when Charles becomes King, there is a chance that William will become Duke of Cornwal and Cambridge.

 

[PrincePatrick]

Personally, I think it has a nice ring to it Thank you Iluvbertie for clarifying on the matter of the childrens' titles changing as well. And, thank you Warren or Zonk for consolidating my posts ('Twas a tipsy evening indeed)

 

[Iluvbertie]

Actually, one of Victoria's sons also had two Dukedoms.

Alfred, was known as His Royal Highness The Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, Earl of Kent, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, etc.

In addition, Frederick, Prince of Wales was known as Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh before he became Prince of Wales in 1729. He never became King but his son ruled as George III.

I believe there are other precedents as well. So if and when Charles becomes King, there is a chance that William will become Duke of Cornwal and Cambridge.

The reason for Alfred having the titles that way is that one was as a sovereign duke - Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha while the other was a Duke of the UK.

With both George III and George V they held two dukedoms in the UK and thus they were combined.

George III even created his sons with combined dukedoms.