Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is true. The 'pattern' was set by HRH Princess Patricia of Connaught. When she married the Hon. Alexander Ramsay (younger son of the 13th Earl of Dalhousie), she voluntarily relinquished the title of Princess of Great Britain and Ireland and the style Royal Highness, and assumed the style Lady Patricia Ramsay. Her only child had no title (Alexander Ramsay of Mar).

The following was HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent. When she married the Hon. Angus Ogilvy, the last refused an offered earldom because -as a younger son- he could not lead the lifestyle of an Earl. Her children have no title (James and Bruce Ogilvie).

The following was HRH The Princess Anne. When she married with Captain Mark Phillips, the last refused an offered earldom as well. Her children have no title (Peter and Zara Phillips).

The only exception on this pattern was when HRH The Princess Margaret married Antony Armstrong-Jones. Back then the royal family was still very small. The Princess Margaret was a very core royal. Due to concerns over the prospect of a British princess giving birth to a child without a title, Antony was offered the earldom of Snowdon and the viscounty of Linley. Now in 2015 this will no longer happen, I expect. Maybe when the eldest daughter -and heiress- of Prince William would have been a female, yes, then her future husband would most likely have been created a Peer by her grandfather Charles or father William.

It indeed was not Princess Anne's or Prince Andrew's choice that the one's children have no title but the other's have. It was a choice by Prince Edward however to "deny" his children with the royal title which is automatically theirs.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That is correct. When nothing happens, James, the present Viscount Severn, will become the 2nd Earl of Wessex as only heir of the male body of the present Earl. When -according to plan- his father will become the 1st Duke of Edinburgh of a new creation, he will become the Earl of Wessex as heir to his father's Dukedom. But still we will have to see: will he be known as HRH The Earl of Wessex (to which he is entitled) or as James Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Wessex (like his far-away cousins the Alexander Windsor, Earl of Ulster and George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews). After all, James is already not known with his rightful title (Prince) and is not addressed accordingly his correct rank (HRH).

James wouldn't be known as HRH The Earl of Wessex while the heir to the Edinburgh Dukedom. He would be either HRH Prince James of Edinburgh OR the Earl of Wessex but not both.

Go back to 1935 when the then Duke of Kent had a son. That son wasn't known as HRH The Earl of St Andrews but as HRH Prince Edward of Kent until his father died when he inherited the title and became HRH The Duke of Kent.

Same thing with the Gloucester title. While the old Duke was alive neither of his sons, while the heir to the dukedom, were known as HRH The Earl of Ulster but were known as HRH Prince William of Gloucester and HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester. On the death of his father Prince Richard became HRH The Duke of Gloucester.


When the heir is a HRH Prince in his own right they don't use the courtesy title. The sons of the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester use it because they aren't HRHs.


James uses the courtesy title to Wessex now because he isn't using HRH Prince James of Wessex (assuming he is even entitled to that designation and I am not going to get involved in that debate again knowing the two sides - 1. that only new LPs can strip them of the HRH and 2. that all that is needed is for the Queen's will to be made known and that is what has happened). If he was using the HRH then there would be no use of the Severn title for a few more generations assuming Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh as intended.

 

[Skippyboo]

I might be wrong but I don't think that James becomes the 2nd Earl of Wessex when his father is made DoE. It's still Edward's title and James's use is only a courtesy so he doesn't change the the number until he inherits in his own right.

George is another example of HRH trumping courtesy title. If not a Prince, he would just been using his father's earldom as courtesy title.

If George was a girl, her future husband wouldn't just be offered a peerage but most likely made a Duke and a Prince since he would be the future consort to a Queen like what happened to Philip (granted he was made a HRH at wedding and Prince later on)


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[Iluvbertie]

Totally agree.


James wouldn't be the 2nd Earl of Wessex until his father dies. Until then, any title he uses, including Viscount Severn is as a courtesy. The substantive holder of the Severn title is still Prince Edward with James using it as a courtesy only.


If Edward eventually is created Duke of Edinburgh, he will be the 1st holder of the 4th creation of the title and James the 2nd. In time James will also be the 2nd holder of the 5th creation of Edinburgh and 2nd of the 1st creation of Wessex and Severn.

 

[padams2359]

Totally agree.


James wouldn't be the 2nd Earl of Wessex until his father dies. Until then, any title he uses, including Viscount Severn is as a courtesy. The substantive holder of the Severn title is still Prince Edward with James using it as a courtesy only.


If Edward eventually is created Duke of Edinburgh, he will be the 1st holder of the 4th creation of the title and James the 2nd. In time James will also be the 2nd holder of the 5th creation of Edinburgh and 2nd of the 1st creation of Wessex and Severn.

If Edward is 1st holder of the 4th creation of DoE, wouldn't James be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation, not the 5th creation?

 

[Lumutqueen]

I think it's because the title has to get re-created for James. Hence 5th creation.

 

[Skippyboo]

It doesn't have to be recreated for James but for Edward. Philip is the 3rd Creation Duke and his heir would be Charles, William and then George, but when Philip and the Queen die and Charles becomes King, the dukedom merges with the Crown and can be reissued to Edward as the 4th creation. James is Edward's heir so he would get it automatically when his father dies. It doesn't have to be recreated.


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[Tilia C.]

Sorry, I don't understand. Why would the DoE title have to be recreated for James? Wouldn't he just inherit it from his father and therefore be 2nd?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Simple answer - I made a typo.


Edward will be the first holder of the 4th creation and James will be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation when he inherits the title from his father.

 

[Molly2101]

I really hope Charles gives Edward the DoE title upon his accession to the Crown as Edward deserves the title.

James as everyone is saying will be the 2nd holder of the 4th creation, but he wont be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh - he will simply be His Grace, The Duke of Edinburgh (although the more I think about the more I like HRH Prince James of Edinburgh, but that wont ever happen.)

 

[Iluvbertie]

Charles has to wait until both his parents are dead before he can consider giving Edward the title as he has to inherit it first.


I know it is more likely that Philip will go first but we really can't assume that, in my opinion.

 

[janjan]

it was written along time ago after Edward got married that one Phillip passes on he get the title

 

[Iluvbertie]

It was stated at the time of the wedding very clearly that when BOTH parents are deceased that the intention is that Charles will recreate the title for Edward.


Until Charles actually inherits the title and then it merges with the Crown it can't be recreated and Charles is the heir apparent to the Edinburgh title, followed by William, George, Harry and Andrew.


If The Queen passes first then Charles becomes King the title will still be Philip's and so he will have to wait.


If Philip passes first then Charles adds Philip's titles to his own until he becomes King and the titles merge with the Crown.

 

[janjan]

it was stated at the time of Sophie and Edward marriage that he will get Phillips title on his death so the title will not go back to the crown it will go to Edward

 

[JessRulz]

Maybe you should have a read of this thread, http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html, because unless Charles, William, George, Harry AND Andrew all die before Philip, Edward won't be inheriting the Edinburgh Dukedom straight from Philip. It doesn't work like that.

 

[Iluvbertie]

it was stated at the time of Sophie and Edward marriage that he will get Phillips title on his death so the title will not go back to the crown it will go to Edward

This is the BBC article from the day of the wedding: BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1999 | 06/99 | royal wedding | Wessex titles for Edward and Sophie

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think you are wrong.


You have been saying that the title will pass from Philip to Edward whenever Philip dies.


I am saying that won't happen until both Philip AND the Queen have died.


The BBC says the same as I am saying: after the death of his mother, the Queen, AND his father, Prince Philip, (I have put the AND in capitals although the BBC article from Edward and Sophie's wedding day didn't have that).

 

[padams2359]

I think you are wrong.


You have been saying that the title will pass from Philip to Edward whenever Philip dies.


I am saying that won't happen until both Philip AND the Queen have died.


The BBC says the same as I am saying: after the death of his mother, the Queen, AND his father, Prince Philip, (I have put the AND in capitals although the BBC article from Edward and Sophie's wedding day didn't have that).

This is correct. If the Queen dies first, the title is still Phillip's. If Phillip dies first, the title goes to Charles until the Queen dies, the title merges and it can be recreated. At that point, it is not the Queen's to reissue. It it was said any other way, the media was wrong, like they haven't gotten facts backwards before.

 

[Osipi]

What it basically boils down to is that the title of The Duke of Edinburgh needs to merge with the crown and that can't happen until Charles ascends the throne. Once it has, it will be possible for Charles, as monarch, to create his brother as the first The Duke of Edinburgh of the 4th creation as it comes nice and fresh from the crown. The title will then start to be "numbered" as the title passes down from father to oldest son (at least until changes are made for primogeniture with peer titles). If James inherits the title from his father, he would be the 2nd The Duke of Edinburgh of the forth creation and so on down the line. Should James have all girls or no children, on his death, the title would once again merge with the Crown and be open for a fresh new line of the 5th creation.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Completely correct. The peerages of Prince Philip (Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich) are hereditary for the heirs male of his body:

1 - The Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales
2 - Prince William, The Duke of Cambridge
3 - Prince George of Cambridge
4 - Prince Henry of Wales
5 - The Prince Andrew, The Duke of York
6 - The Prince Edward, The Earl of Wessex
7 - James of Wessex, Viscount Severn

In no any scenario, not when the Queen dies and not when the Duke dies, Edward will be the direct Heir of his father's peerages. Only when by tragic accident the numbers 1 to 5 of this list are suddenly wiped away.

 

[Osipi]

In this instance with Edward, upon his marriage, the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh made their wishes known that they would like Philip's title to go to their 3rd son and 4th child and with that being said, Edward was created the Earl of Wessex at that time.

Its not actually a given at this time that Edward will be created The Duke of Edinburgh when Charles ascends the throne. Charles and Edward could have a very serious falling out and once Charles ascends the throne, it could be his will and pleasure to not create the title for Edward. As it was made quite public what their parent's wishes are, I really don't think that would ever happen and Charles is the type of man that would definitely honor his parent's wishes.

 

[janjan]

not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage

 

[Osipi]

not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage

In this case, it was a stipulation added solely for that peerage. The Duke of Edinburgh title still carries the stipulation of "the heirs male" as do most of the hereditary peerage titles.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage

Lord Alexander Duff was given his Dukedom of Fife and Earldom of Macduff with a special remainder attached to it. When he married Princess Louise of Wales, he was Earl Fife, Viscount Macduff and Baron Braco (Peerage of Ireland) and Earl of Fife and Baron Skene (Peerage of the United Kingdom).

On his marriage Lord Alexander Duff was created Duke of Fife and Marquess of Macduff in the peerage of the United Kingdom. But all these honours were -as usual- to the "heirs male of the body". When, fourteen years later, it was clear that the advent of a male heir was unlikely, he was created Duke of Fife and Earl of Macduff afresh with remainder to his daughters and their issue. It was to these titles that Princess Louise succeeded on her father's death in 1912.

It should be noted, however, that except in very rare cases this ability by means of special remainder to transmit through the female line is restricted to the first instance. Once the lady has succeeded, the succession to the title follows the normal course of "heirs male of the body".

 

[Iluvbertie]

not true remember King Edward the seventh I think it was his daughter Louise who married the Duke of fife I believe it was she had 2 girls only and Edward the 7th passed an act that the title of fife be passed on to Louise daughters when it looked like there would be no more children from that marriage

Edward VII didn't 'pass an act'. That is what parliament does and the King assents to it.

That isn't what happened in this case however. Edward VII issued new Letters Patent which allowed the title to be inherited by his granddaughter because the Fife's didn't have a son.

The LPs for Philip's title are clearly - heirs male of the body (as are the LPs for William's Cambridge title) meaning that Charles is the heir apparent to the Edinburgh title followed, in order, by William, George, Harry, Andrew and then Edward and James.

For Edward to inherit the title directly from Philip then all those ahead of him in the line of succession to that title would have to be dead before Philip.

The Queen won't issue LPs to override the rights of her sons and grandsons to inherit their father/grandfather/great-grandfather's title when she knows that it will merge with the Crown eventually anyway and thus will be available to be recreated for Edward.

Whether Charles would recreate it for James if Edward predeceased either of The Queen or Philip would be another question altogether but I am confident that he would honour the announcement made in 1999 and recreate the title for Edward within a reasonable period after the title merges with the Crown.

 

[Molly2101]

Oddly enough there was an article in The Times on 26th April about Edward being the next Duke of Edinburgh. Edward to be the next Duke of Edinburgh. I am not a subscriber so I can't read the entire article and I doubt it's completely accurate about the designation and inheritance of the title. I just thought I would link the article as this subject is being discussed again.

 

[AdmirerUS]

There actually are two threads to which all this relates. http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html#post986086 has a robust discussion (with a lovely summary at post #2 by Iluvbertie that looks back to official leaks about the issue. That is a closed sticky thread.

That thread says all future discussion of the matter "should be done in the Royal Dukes and Ducal Titles thread." (Warren at his tidy best).

 

[royal-blue]

Both sisters but particularly Beatrice need to realise that just because they are granddaughters of the Queen, this doesn't mean they are required, expected or necessarily wanted to spend the rest of their lives shaking hands and cutting ribbons. If they want to do charity work, it can be in their capacity as private citizens rather than because they have titles.

it would be best all round if they relinquished their titles upon marriage. It seems archaic to have people swanning round being princesses in this day and age, if they are not working royals.

 

[Roslyn]

Both sisters but particularly Beatrice need to realise that just because they are granddaughters of the Queen, this doesn't mean they are required, expected or necessarily wanted to spend the rest of their lives shaking hands and cutting ribbons. If they want to do charity work, it can be in their capacity as private citizens rather than because they have titles.

it would be best all round if they relinquished their titles upon marriage. It seems archaic to have people scanning round being princesses in this day and age, if they are not working royals.

I agree it's archaic. Why wait till they get married though? They may never get married, or mightn't get married for years. If they're going to relinquish their titles, why not relinquish them now?

 

[Lord_Royal]

Their titles are what they are. Even if they were to cease using them, there's no getting away from them, they ARE Princesses and it's nonsense to say that not using the title would change anything for them. Their granny is The Queen, their father is a Duke, their uncle and cousins will be King and their mum is Fergie - there's no hiding from that legacy and it's about time people accept that Beatrice and Eugenie aren't going to live like 'the rest of us' because they simply aren't like 'the rest of us' and anyone who says otherwise isn't exercising common sense.