Princess Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine (1843-1878)

[Grace Angel]

It's surprising Alice and Victoria would have bad relations because although Alice wasn't as intellectual like Vicky, she wasn't like Bertie either. She was in some ways her father's child, unlike Helena for instance who wasn't intellectual. I wonder had Alice lived longer would she and Louis have drifted apart more? Alice was at least very honest about it, although it's true that some royal spouses letters to each other don't survive, and yet we know some royal's marriages were either unhappy or drifted apart, so you have to wonder if most royal couples in that position would have been as honest as Alice, whether in on paper records like letters and diaries which we have, or sometimes don't or in face to face conversations that we can't reconstruct?

 

[Russophile]

It's surprising Alice and Victoria would have bad relations . . .

I find that surprising as well. Victoria referred to her as a "dear Child" and Alice was constantly nursing everybody, even Victoria.

 

[Grace Angel]

Maybe had Alice lived longer, their relationship would have become better.

 

[maria-olivia]

I am sure about that. Perhaps she would refuse Alix's wedding with the Tsar Nicolas II, knowing that Alexander III and Dagmar were not very happy with this wedding.
Vicky was Empress only a few months...

 

[Grace Angel]

Well, Dagmar and Alexander III did eventually relent and decide to let Nicholas and Alix marry. By that time, Alexander III was dying anyway. So if the couple had decided to marry, I'm sure she would have supported them. But she may not have at first, I know she did back her brother's marriage to Marie Alexandrovna though so she clearly had no issues with Russian marriages for her relatives.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

...both have left incredible legacies through their descendents...

Yes, both sisters left descendants, one who today graces the throne of Spain and the other is consort to the British monarch. But Alice's children, like Victoria's, were not all well adjusted, which is typical of most families today. For example, Alix was not a very good consort for Nicholas because she was extremely mistrustful of most people, and let her spiritual beliefs blind her to the reality of what was happening to Russia. And while Victoria's three older children were horrible to her, this was most likely the influence of her in-laws who removed the children at an early age from Victoria's supervision which undoubtedly influenced their view of their parents. The younger children of Victoria by all accounts were devoted to their parents and were very well behaved and decent people.

 

[jackie68]

Re: The Heifer named after Pss Alice.

Off the top of my head, I can't recall the author, but the book from which I refer is called Victoria and her Daughters.

At a later date I'll directly quote and show page numbers.

 

[redrose_2121]

I'm not sure what is meant by Alix wasn't a very good consort for Nicholas II? They are part of one of the greatest royal love stories of all time. I guess they were not very well matched in their political views, but in personal matters is another story. Is that what you meant? I think it's so sad that Alice died at such a young age. It absolutely destroyed Alix, who, up until her mother's death, had been called "Sunny." Alice was such a beautiful, graceful, regal, and most importantly, charitable human being. A true jewel in the crown of English history.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The point is that if Nicholas had been simply Nicholas Romanov ordinary man about town then Alix would have been a great wife but as he was the Tsar of All the Russia's he needed a wife who would be able to win the affection of the people and also maintain that affection. She needed to be able to separate the job from the family and see through people better. She was a failure as a consort but a success as a wife and mother.

 

[Russophile]

I'm not sure what is meant by Alix wasn't a very good consort for Nicholas II?

Copy what Bertie said and adding: Please read Coryne Hall's "Little Mother of Russia". It is about the life of Marie Feoderovna, Nicky's mother. That is what a true consort should have been and Alix was NOT living up to that. She didn't even try after a bit, and Minnie, being who and what she was, didn't encourage Alix.
Don't forget, Russia at that time comprised 1/6th of the world and had the most glittering court in Europe. There were things that a consort was expected to do and Alix did not.

 

[redrose_2121]

Exactly. That's what I thought you meant. I was just making sure you meant politically and publicly, rather than personally, emotionally, and privately. Sorry about that.

 

[Russophile]

I just finished Tsar: The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra by my Peter (hadn't read it since it had first come out back in 1997) and one is struck by the love that Nicholas and Alexandra had for each other and their children. That being said, however, Alexandra took a little too harsh line with her children in isolating them entirely too much from society. Yes, we all knew that Russian society was decadent in morals and wealth though how in the world were those girls supposed to take care of themselves if they were never exposed to it?? they absolutely had no clue how to socialize or comport themselves in polite society. That was a travesty.

 

[Warren]

Guys, this thread is for the Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine, not Nicholas and Alexandra.

 

[Russophile]

Although the early death of Princess Alice of Hesse und Rhine may have contributed to Alexandra's upbringing and the way she isolated her children.

 

[jonnydep]

She didnt seem to mind so much when Louis married (the third time) with a lady of a more acceptable rank... did she?

Am somewhat puzzled as to who this third wife could be, as to my knowledge the Grand Duke Louis IV only married the twice.....

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wasn't the second marriage annulled due to its morganatic status?

 

[Russophile]

Wasn't the second marriage annulled due to its morganatic status?

I do know from Warwick's Ella, that Victoria pressured that marriage be annulled using those grounds.

 

[Warren]

Although the early death of Princess Alice of Hesse und Rhine may have contributed to Alexandra's upbringing and the way she isolated her children.

That's drawing a long bow!
Not content with having an entire forum at the disposal of the Romanovs, they must now be fended off from taking over tiny Hesse-Darmstadt.
Almost as expansionist as the Prussians!

 

[Warren]

Wasn't the second marriage annulled due to its morganatic status?

Oh yes, it was quite a little scandal. As I introduced the Prussians in my previous post, I'll continue with them...

from Hanna Pakula's An Uncommon Woman - The Empress Frederick, paperback p413

"The Crown Prince [of Prussia] did not approve of another marriage about to take place between Sandro's older brother, Prince Louis of Battenberg, and Princess Victoria of Hesse, the daughter of Vicky's deceased sister, Alice. The celebration in Darmstadt in April of 1884 - a major royal event, owing to the presence of Queen Victoria - was treated by the Kaiser and Kaiserin as a royal calamity, since the Hesses were closely related to the Hohenzollerns. When, on the evening of his daughter's wedding, the widowed Grand Duke Louis secretly married a pretty divorcée, the Kaiserin ordered all the Hohenzollerns at the wedding to leave Louis's "contaminated court" immediately and return to Berlin.

Even though Louis bowed to family pressure and had his marriage annulled...A wave of indignation against the Battenbergs, spearheaded by Willy, surged through Hohenzollern ranks."

 

[Russophile]

That's drawing a long bow!
Not content with having an entire forum at the disposal of the Romanovs, they must now be fended off from taking over tiny Hesse-Darmstadt.
Almost as expansionist as the Prussians!

Why Warren, are you accusing me of being a rabble rouser???


I checked in Warwick's Ella and there was no other marriages. I did not know about the marriage to Princess Victoria, though. Russo is horribly deficient where Empress Vicky is concerned.

Russo's take is that poor Louis was beaten into submission by Granny, annulled the marriage to his love, and didn't try again. Who would with the power Victoria weilded?? The kids, (from Warwick) said they were supportive of their father's happiness.

 

[snowflower]

from Hanna Pakula's An Uncommon Woman - The Empress Frederick, paperback p413

"...A wave of indignation against the Battenbergs, spearheaded by Willy, surged through Hohenzollern ranks."

Not only through Hohenzollern ranks . The Romanov weren't exactly polite or firendly with the Battenbergs, largely because of political reasons .If I remember correctly, one time, while Victoria and Louis were visiting her sister Elisabeth, the Tsar had a banquet and the were invited. Victoria sat among the Grand dukes and Grand Duchesses, while Louis was placed with the Russian naval Officers. What a nice way to treat guests ....

 

[Russophile]

Not only through Hohenzollern ranks . The Romanov weren't exactly polite or firendly with the Battenbergs, largely because of political reasons .If I remember correctly, one time, while Victoria and Louis were visiting her sister Elisabeth, the Tsar had a banquet and the were invited. Victoria sat among the Grand dukes and Grand Duchesses, while Louis was placed with the Russian naval Officers. What a nice way to treat guests ....

Indeed that is pushing it though Victoria WAS the sister of the Empress and Grand Duchess Serge.

 

[snowflower]

At the time Nicky and Alix weren't married yet and Alexander was still alive (and the curent Tsar), I should have clarified it. But still, it seems largely insulting to behave like this to a brother in law of a Grand Duchess.

 

[Zonk]

But aren't we talking about Willy? If one can be insulting to one's mother, an uncle (a Prince of Wales) why wouldn't he insult the Grand Duke?

It is a shame that Alice died so young...one wonders how Alix would have turned out if her mother played more of a role in her life. Although I do think the Hesse children spent a lot of time in England. I wonder if Elizabeth would have married the GD Serge as well.

 

[snowflower]

It is a shame that Alice died so young...one wonders how Alix would have turned out if her mother played more of a role in her life. Although I do think the Hesse children spent a lot of time in England. I wonder if Elizabeth would have married the GD Serge as well.

She would have definitely turned out differently - losing her mother had a big impact on her. Before Alice's death , she was reported to be a happy child , but that changed after Alice's and Marie's death. She would probably be less shy and reserved and , if she was alive when Alix got married to Nicholas, Alice would have tried to protect her daughter from self isolating herserlf in the Russian Court. I don't think that Alix would have cut herself from her mother , so perhaps a reprimand from Alice would have worked in many matters. Not to mention that, given her nursing experience and skills, Alice could have realised that Rasputin was just playing with her grandson's mind and that he wasn't offering an actual cure and save the family from his influence and a lot of pain and trouble.....

 

[Russophile]

I believe Alice would have trained her daughter better to be the consort of an Emporer would she have survived. As it was, the older girls had all the training or near enough to go into their positions at the courts they landed at with little difficulty. Granted they were in the position Alix ended up in though they knew enough to comport themselves and acquit themselves quite well.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Another one of the fascinating "what ifs" of history, eh? Losing a parent at such a young age would have some effect on anyone, unless there was a maternal figure to take her place and that never occurred with Alix. However, Alix's religious obsession might still have made her cling to Rasputin if she believed that would save her son.

 

[jonnydep]

Wasn't the second marriage annulled due to its morganatic status?

well i have read that, Queen Victoria had the marriage annulled, because she was upset and disapproved of her son in law marrying a divorced woman, the Queen judged her as belonging to the demi - monde !.

the Queens conduct on this occasion does not reflect her views on morganatic marriages at all. one must remember she allowed quite a few of her descendants to marry spouses who was of morganatic status!

btw didnt the grand duke after their divorce, pay his former wife off with a large amount of money ?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Did the Grand Duke have much money? I had assumed the family had to watch their expenditures when Alice was alive and although not poor, neither were they rich.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Another one of the fascinating "what ifs" of history, eh? Losing a parent at such a young age would have some effect on anyone, unless there was a maternal figure to take her place and that never occurred with Alix. However, Alix's religious obsession might still have made her cling to Rasputin if she believed that would save her son.

I do suspect that if her mother had lived longer that Alix might never have become that religious - not that she wouldn't have been a Christian but that it would have been a more moderate form than it took.