Prince Jean and Family, News and Events Part 1: June 2003 -

[RoseMary]

That is the first time I have heard this. It must have taken him a lot to actually say that to his parents. So many things though are not said by words but actions.

I seem to get the feeling through other threads and everything, that although Joesphine met well, the late Grand Duchess often rubbed some of her family members the wrong way. Jean I think is a "victim" of some of this old fashioned thinking of Joesphine's and Jean. His parents had the power to let him retain his title despite the circumstances of his marriage to Helen.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Well, JC and Jean were the old fashioned type of royals, but meant well. MT and Henri aren't, but they still mean well.

 

[msfroyste]

according to what's been said, i don't think it was jean who was causing the issues. too many ppl have said that it was j-c who was "pushing off her agenda" onto jean. but like rosemary said, she probably wanted what she considered was best for her children, like any mother would, and unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look at it and the situation, that could be both a good or a bad thing. i do find it interesting that henri would've considered taking himself out of the line of succession so he could marry mt - a really romantic gesture. but i wonder what all went down that could've caused him to do that.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

It probably wasn't Jean. JC was just probabaly pushy.

 

[msfroyste]

well, jean just doesn't seem the type to interfere with the lives of his kids more than the norm, so to speak. besides he seems really nice. jean probably took himself out of the line of succession because j-c could've pushed him a little too far, and he wanted to get back at her, which is sad b/c they all seem to be such nice ppl and seem to have such a closely knit family. but from personal experience, not mine but various other family memebers, when parents push a little too hard, such as being snippy about someone's choice of spouse,in this case, ppl tend to do what can be considered "drastic" things at the time, the outcome of which can be hurtful, sad, and/or destructive, one way or another. hopefully, jean(jr.), helen, and j-c, as well as mt, made peace before her death.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

I think it was more JC than Jean (jr) that probably wanted him to give up his rights.

 

[Lady Jane]

Both Jean sr. & Jean jr. are lovely people, & I don't think rights to the throne were important to Jean jr. anyway, there's much more to life than that!

But JC was quite a formidable woman, seemingly a bit of a stickler for tradition & doing 'the right thing'...​

Similarly with Henri & MT, it is obvious, even now, that they are v much in love, but MT isn't a traditional match for a royal heir, so I'm not surprised there was parental opposition there too.

But in this day & age most people are able to choose their own spouse, so why shouldn't the royals, whatever their traditions dictate? Well done Henri & MT!

Thanks msfroyste for info on Jean jr poss. being divorced, yes it certainly does help!

 

[hillary_nugent]

Henri actually threatened to abdicate if he couldn't marry MT.

wow are you serious? this is the first time i heard of this...wow MT and Henri's love for each other is so beautiful!

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

I heard it on this special about the family that was made about a year or so before Henri became Grand Duke.

 

[ysakuraba]

Souvereigns Parade at Sandhurst Royal Military Academy August 8, 1977 of Prince Jean
Pic from http://editorial.acionline.biz

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Before the whole marrige thing, he was a pretty normal royal, wasn't he?

 

[pasiphaé]

This is an old pic of him with his wife and Princess Astrid of Belgium and her husband Lorenz.

 

[suturegeisha]

Admittedly, Helene does not have the best dress sense. She looks like a refugee from a candy wrapper factory in that pink dress.

 

[msfroyste]

well, taste is something you either have or don't have. it can't be learned, merely imitated. those who have it, are born with it, those who don't *shrugs, that's why there are fashion aids, magazines and the like.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Well, this was taken quite a while ago and fashion changes.

 

[Marengo]

Any news on Jean? Is he (still) living seperately from Helene?
Are there any pictures of his children? I saw pictures of Constantin and Marie-Gabrielle in Point de Vue, when they were attending the baptism of Leopold of Luxemburg (son of Guillaume and Sybilla) and they looked like absolute stunners already!

Well, JC and Jean were the old fashioned type of royals, but meant well. MT and Henri aren't, but they still mean well.

Were they so oldfashioned? They both supported Henri when he married Marie-Therese, Josephine-Charlotte even more then her husband (as she knew what it was, being forced into a marriage maybe?). Jean even got into a big fight with hios cousin, the Duke of Parma, who considered the marriage as morganatic, and in the end Jean was so angry that he dropped the ''Prince of Bourbon-Parma' title for himself and his family completely (but maintained the HRH for them, which belonged to that title I believe )The problems between JC and MT had more to do with a clash of character then her non-royal background.

I ageree, they probably all meant well

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Well, they are from a different time period. People their age tend to be more conservative.

 

[ysakuraba]

News of Prince Jean
http://www.gouvernement.lu/salle_presse/actualite/2005/11/09frieden/index.html

 

[suturegeisha]

If my ghastly French is accurate, the article is saying that Prince Jean is now the president of Luxembourg Chamber of Commerce in France? That would make sense, since he lives in Paris.
I wonder if he's been seeing anyone...I heard that since he and Helene split up, he had been dating a woman named Diane....I think it was Diane de Guerre, not completely sure.

 

[Warren]

Jean even got into a big fight with hios cousin, the Duke of Parma, who considered the marriage as morganatic, and in the end Jean was so angry that he dropped the ''Prince of Bourbon-Parma' title for himself and his family completely (but maintained the HRH for them, which belonged to that title I believe )

The style of Royal Highness doesn't come with a title, it comes from the status of the family. The Ducal Family of Parma are yet another branch of the Bourbons, hence the title of Prince of Bourbon-Parma. The Spanish Bourbons inherited the Farnese rights to the Parma Duchy though the heiress Isabella Farnese, wife of Felipe V, King of Spain. Future rulers of Parma descend from these Spanish Monarchs, and are thus Royal.

Members of the Grand Ducal House of Luxembourg, House of Nassau (-Weilburg) previously had the style of Grand Ducal Highness. When Grand Duchess Charlotte marrried HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma, she assumed his style of Royal Highness, and since then all issue of the Luxembourg House have been born as Royal Highnesses (with the exception of Prince Jean's children).

In 1986 Grand Duke Jean changed the title of members of the House from 'Prince or Princess of Luxembourg, Bourbon-Parma and Nassau, to 'Prince or Princess of Luxembourg'. Changing the family name does not involve a demotion in style, so they are still Royal Highnesses. As mentioned in this thread last year, in November 2004 Grand Duke Henri "promoted" various members of the family to the style of Royal Highness, with the title of 'Prince or Princess of Nassau', including all the children of Prince Jean, who up to then were merely Counts or Countesses of Nassau.

The Duke of Parma may not be so keen to throw stones at others these days, since his eldest son Prince Carlos, Prince of Piacenza, Duke of Madrid, heir to the Parma legacy and future Carlist Claimant to the Spanish Throne, has a child to a woman with whom he is not married. People in glass houses... etc.
.

 

[suturegeisha]

Thanks for the great reply, Warren.

If I can add something....according to the royal decree of 1995 about naming issues:
Article 1: In the private and public acts which relate to them, the Princes and Princesses resulting from the descent to the first degree of the Sovereign bear the title of Royal Highness before their first names and surname "Nassau" and the title Prince or Princess of Luxembourg following their first names and the surname. The descendants of the Heir Apparent to the Crown are qualified in the same manner.
-This means that only the children of a Grand Duke or of a Hereditary Grand Duke may be styled as a Royal Highness, Prince/ss of Luxembourg. Children of other members of the royal family bear the title Royal Higness, Prince/ss of Nassau. For example:
All of Guillaume's children will be Prince/ss of Luxembourg, Royal Highness. However, Felix's children will only be styled Prince/ss of Nassau, Royal Highness. Prince Guillaume [Henri's brother] has four children- Paul Louis, Leopold, Charlotte, and Jean, who are all styled Prince/ss of Nassau, and not of Luxembourg, since they are not children of a reigning Grand Duke or a Hereditary Grand Duke.

Article 2: The Princes of our House, having married with the consent of the Head of the Household [read- the Grand Duke], are qualified as in the first article.
-This means that if a Prince of Luxembourg marries WITH the consent of the Grand Duke, his wife will be styled Princess of Luxembourg, Royal Highness.

Article 3: The Princes of our House, having married without the consent of the Head of the Household, as well as their wife, carry only the title Count or Countess of Nassau following their first names and the surname "Nassau". The descendants from these unions are qualified in the same manner. The Princesses of our House who have married without the consent of the Head of the Household carry only the title Countess of Nassau.
-This means that if a Prince of Luxembourg marries WITHOUT the consent of the Grand Duke, he and his wife will only be titled Count and Countess of Nassau with the last name of Nassau. For example, if Felix marries without Henri's consent, he will be called, officially: Felix Nassau, Count of Nassau. His wife will be WifeofFelix Nassau, Countess of Nassau.
Also it means that if Princess Alexandra marries someone without the consent of Henri, she will lose the title of Princess and be called Alexandra Nassau, Countess of Nassau. Her husband will not receive a title of his own, as titles do not pass through the female line unless they are a sovereign.

Article 4: [note- this one is confusing] In case of judicial separation, divorce, or remarriage after death of the spouse, the titles conferred to the Princes of our House by vitue of this decree lose full right.
-I believe that this means that if a Prince of Luxembourg who married without the consent of the Grand Duke and lost his title will regain it in the event of a separation, divorce, or the death of his spouse. I could very well be wrong though.

...what confused me was Article 3, since Jean never lost his title of Prince of Luxembourg, Royal Highness. It was simply that his wife Helene was not given the title of Princess, but rather Countess of Nassau, and as such their children were styled similarly. According to the Article he should have been Jean Nassau, Count of Nassau, instead of Prince of Luxembourg. However, this decree was made in 1995- way after Jean and Helene married- so this rule may not have been in effect then.

As always, the Grand Duke has the power to elevate rankings in his family- he made his cousin Prince Robert of Nassau's wife Julie a Princess with the style of Royal Highness, despite the fact that Robert married without Grand Duke Jean's consent and as such had never received a title.

Unfortunately this decree does not address the Prince/ss of Bourbon de Parma issue. I wish it would, this is pretty confusing.

Also I might mention that the sovereign of Luxembourg- even before Grand Duchess Charlotte married Prince Felix of Burbon de Parma- has always had the style of Royal Highness. Their children were Grand Ducal Highnesses. After Charlotte's marriage her children received the style of Royal Highness since it passed down from their father through the male line.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

So anyway, I was on the Hello magazine website, and they say that he isn't even divorced.

 

[Warren]

Thanks for the great reply, Warren.
If I can add something....according to the royal decree of 1995 about naming issues...:
Unfortunately this decree does not address the Prince/ss of Bourbon de Parma issue. I wish it would, this is pretty confusing.

This decree was made in 1995; the 'Bourbon-Parma' was dropped in 1986 and would have been the subject of a decree at that time.

Also I might mention that the sovereign of Luxembourg - even before Grand Duchess Charlotte married Prince Felix of Burbon de Parma - has always had the style of Royal Highness. Their children were Grand Ducal Highnesses.

I forgot to mention this; thanks for adding it to the record.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

It was dropped, but Henri took it up again, so I guess the decree was reinstated.

 

[Sancia]

wow are you serious? this is the first time i heard of this...wow MT and Henri's love for each other is so beautiful!

Henri is not the only heir who threatened to abdicate or give up his rights if he couldn't marry the woman he loved.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Jean basically had to. He had a child out of wedlock, Henri didn't.

 

[drimal]

It's really difficult to find pics of Prince Jean de Nassau and his divorced wife Helen Vestur.

I've found these two:

Source of the pics: seegerpress and google

Link to the pics I stocked on photobucket:
https://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/drimal_/romanov/jeanofluxembourgandhelenevestur.jpg
https://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/drimal_/romanov/pre-SEEGER00015836.jpg

Prince Jean is living actually in Paris and I've heard rumours that there has been a serious dispute between him and the rest of the family in the eighties.

Anybody know why he devorced from Helen Vestur?

Born at Betzdorf Castle on 15 May 1957, twin brother of Princess Margaretha, Prince Jean studied in Luxembourg, Switzerland and France, where he obtained his baccalaureate. He then attended language courses in Great Britain.
In 1977, he obtained his officer's commission after a period of study at the Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst. In 1979, he was appointed Captain in the Luxembourg Army. Prince Jean completed his higher education at the Institut Européen d'Administration des Affaires (Instead) in Fontainebleau, France. Today he works in the financial services industry.
By declaration dated 26 September 1986, he renounced his rights of succession to the throne. On 27 May 1987, he married Hélène Vestur, who bears the title Countess of Nassau. Four children were born of this marriage:
Marie-Gabrielle, Countess of Nassau (born on 8th December 1986)
Constantin, Count of Nassau (born on 22th July 1988)
Wenceslas, Count of Nassau (born on 17th November 1990)
Carl-Johann, Count of Nassau (born on 15th August 1992

Text from a pdf file

Why did he renounced his rights in 1986? Are the rumours of the dispute true?​

​

​

​

On 27th November 2004 Jean became Prince of Nassau!

Here is the official Grand Ducal decree:

I found the article under this link:https://www.geocities.com/dagtho/luxdecree20041127.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arrêté grand-ducal du 27 novembre 2004 relatif aux titres à porter par Madame Julie ONGARO et les descendants issus de l'union avec Son Altesse Royale le Prince Robert ainsi que par les descendants issus de l'union de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Jean avec Madame Hélène VESTUR

Grand-Ducal decree of 27 November 2004 relating to the titles to be carried by Mrs. Julie ONGARO and the descendants resulting from the union with His Royal Highness Prince Robert as well as by the descendants resulting from the union of His Royal Highness Prince Jean with Mrs. Helene VESTUR

Nous Henri, Grand-Duc de Luxembourg, Duc de Nassau,
Vu les articles 3 et 40 de la Constitution;
Voulant donner une marque publique de Notre affection et de Notre bienveillance à certains Membres de Notre famille;
Sur le rapport de Notre Premier Ministre, Ministre d'Etat et de Notre Ministre de la Justice, et après délibération du Gouvernement en Conseil;
Arrêtons:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent:
L'épouse de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Robert, née Julie ONGARO est autorisée à porter le titre d'Altesse Royale, Princesse de Nassau.
Les descendants issus de cette union de même que les descendants issus de l'union de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Jean avec Madame Hélène VESTUR sont qualifiés de la même manière.
Les dispositions de l'article 4 de l'arrêté grand-ducal du 21 septembre 1995 concernant le nom de famille et les titres des Membres de la Famille grand-ducale sont applicables.
Art. 2. Notre Premier Ministre, Ministre d'Etat, et Notre Ministre de la Justice sont chargés de l'exécution du présent arrêté. Le Premier Ministre,
Ministre d'Etat
Jean-Claude Juncker
Le Ministre de la Justice,
Luc Frieden
Château de Berg, le 27 novembre 2004.
Henri

 

[Warren]

On 27th November 2004 Jean became Prince of Nassau!
Here is the official Grand Ducal decree.

Thanks for this drimal. If I can paraphrase the good bits...

The spouse of HRH the Prince Robert, neé Julie Ongaro is authorised to bear the title of Royal Highness, Princess of Nassau.

The descendants issuing from this union [Prince Robert & Princess Julie] and the descendants issuing from the union of HRH the Prince Jean with Madame Hélène Vestur are qualified in the same manner.

Thus the 3 children of Robert and Julie (Charlotte, Alexander & Frederik) are Princes/Princess of Nassau, Royal Highness, as are the 4 children of Prince Jean (Marie-Gabrielle, Constantin, Wenceslas & Carl Johan).

 

[Sancia]

Marie Gabrielle is born september 8th 1986, and not december.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Why did he renounced his rights in 1986? Are the rumours of the dispute true?
​

​

He was going to have a child out of wedlock (a big no-no back then.) I have heard he has gotten a divorce, but it isn't certain.