Prince Henrik's Plans for his Final Resting Place: August 2017


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Princess Eugenie's husband won't become a prince. Baroness Smith's husband isn't a Lord. It's Princess William not Princess Catherine. So why should the Queen's husband be a king.

The issue for me is Henrick knew all of this when he got married. Did he really think the world was going to be turned upside down just to accommodate him?

Not to mention status! In the UK Kate's Royal status in terms of other members of the RF changes depending on William being present or not. Henrick must have known this, wasn't he some sort of diplomat before he married? His position and title is based solely on being the Queen's husband and as such can never be her Royal equal. Regardless of title, he will still just be the Queen's husband!
 
Legally, Camilla will be queen when Charles becomes king. They can call themselves what they like, it still doesn't change the fact that she is not a Princess of anywhere. Conversely, Maxima is called queen but is actually only a princess of the Netherlands. Go figure.


Being in the "royal business" since my childhood days I dare say to know a lot about it. But I´m still confused about all these titles and styles...

As I understand it, Máxima IS a Queen (she´s styled Her Majesty - a title a Princess never is), but NOT THE Queen of the Netherlands, but a dutch Queen.
You claim Camilla wouldn´t be a Princess. I´ve read from a very trustworthy source that Diana, Camilla, Catherine were/ are all named "Princess of the UK of GB and N Ireland" in their passports (the Queen is the only person in the UK without a passport)! I´ve even seen it myself in an old two-part documentary from the late 1980s about Charles and Diana, when the couple did an official visit to Australia.

And I remember all the titles at the funeral of the Queen Mother being enumerated when a bishop called her "the most high, most mighty and excellent Princess Elizabeth.....Dower Queen to His late Majesty King George VI...." etc etc.
So, obviously you are styled a Princess of the UK when you marry a royal prince and are granted the HRH....?!
 
:previous:

You're correct with the UK titles.

Once upon a time it was the norm to see a women styled by her husbands name. 'Mrs Michael Middleton' referring to Carole for example.

The British court still adheres to the 'old styles'

So when Catherine got married she's styled after her husband. 'Princess William'

But she's still a princess.

On George's birth registration, Catherine is referred to as a 'Princess of the UK'

Under English common law A man doesn't take his wife's style or rank. This applies in Denmark if I understand correctly. So Henrick knew this. It's not like a lawyer presented him with fine print.
 
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Not wanting to be buried next to his wife of 50 years because of something as nonsensical as a title is truly deplorable, IMO. [...]

"Normal" expectations do not apply to royals. In March this year the Infanta Doña Alicia de Borbón-Parma y de Habsburgo-Lorena (widow of the Infante Don Alfonso de Bórbon-Dos Sicilias y de Borbón) passed away.

Her husband has been interred in the Pantheon of the Infantes in the Royal Monastery of El Escorial. The Infanta herself however, choose to be interred in Glashütten, Mönichkirchen (Austria).

The website of the Dutch Royal House writes as follows:

"As spouse of the King, Princess Máxima (!) is referred as Queen Máxima. Officially she is Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

[...]

Article 8, paragraph 2, of the Royal House Act only states that to the spouse of the King the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands may be granted by Royal Decree. This also applies to the spouse of the Heir. In this latter capacity Her Royal Highness Princess Máxima has been granted the title Princess of the Netherlands indeed.

There are no furtherer regulations about the form of address to the spouse of the King. There is a tradition, also in other countries, that female spouses may be addressed by their husband's title.

During the reading of the Royal House Act in 2002, this was discussed in the Second Chamber (Lower House). The then Prime Minister informed the Chamber that he only wanted to regulate the official titles. There was a wide support in the Chamber for this approach. This has led to the conclusion that an official (legal) regulation for forms of address was neither necessary nor desireable."

So it seems that the Dutch Royal Court considers "Her Majesty Queen Máxima" more as a form of address (out of tradition, by courtesy) but that her formal titles are and remain Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

Link (in Dutch): https://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/onder...ik-antwoorden-over-de-troonswisseling-in-2013

Tehe !

I'm bound to say he seems to care nothing for his popularity in Denmark, now [if he EVER did !]

On itself that is a great feature.
 
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:previous:That might be true Duc....but Queen Margrethe's and Prince Henrik's funeral arrangements have been in progress for years at great taxpayers expense. Considering that Prince Henrik has been complaining for years about his title and position in the Danish monarchy, he could have made alternate arrangements a long time ago. I hope any alternative burial arrangements will not include the use of anymore taxpayer's money. Those arrangements should be paid for out of his own pocket. Maybe that's why his appanage has not been reduced?
 
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The website of the Dutch Royal House writes as follows:

"As spouse of the King, Princess Máxima (!) is referred as Queen Máxima. Officially she is Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

[...]

Article 8, paragraph 2, of the Royal House Act only states that to the spouse of the King the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands may be granted by Royal Decree. This also applies to the spouse of the Heir. In this latter capacity Her Royal Highness Princess Máxima has been granted the title Princess of the Netherlands indeed.

There are no furtherer regulations about the form of address to the spouse of the King. There is a tradition, also in other countries, that female spouses may be addressed by their husband's title.

During the reading of the Royal House Act in 2002, this was discussed in the Second Chamber (Lower House). The then Prime Minister informed the Chamber that he only wanted to regulate the official titles. There was a wide support in the Chamber for this approach. This has led to the conclusion that an official (legal) regulation for forms of address was neither necessary nor desireable."

So it seems that the Dutch Royal Court considers "Her Majesty Queen Máxima" more as a form of address (out of tradition, by courtesy) but that her formal titles are and remain Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

Link (in Dutch): https://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/onder...ik-antwoorden-over-de-troonswisseling-in-2013

That is the same BTW with the Belgian queens. On Philippe's marriage certificate, Queen Paola was referred to as

Sa Majesté la Reine Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia des Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princesse de Belgique, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold.

King Albert II by contrast is cited as

Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II Félix Humbert Théodore Christian Eugène Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique, Grand Maître de l'Ordre de Léopold

Note that King Albert II had the titles of both Roi des Belges and Prince de Belgique; Queen Paola in turn was only Princesse de Belgique, but not Reine des Belges implying that her designation as Queen and Majesty corresponds probably only to a courtesy title and style.

In older documents, e.g. the birth certificates of King Leopold I's children, the King's consort was still referred to as "Reine des Belges", so I don't know exactly when that practice was discontinued. In any case though, now that Belgium has equal primogeniture, it is clear that the queen consort should not be referred as Queen of the Belgians to avoid confusion with a reigning queen.
 
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On itself that is a great feature.

I've always admired the fact that neither Henrik or the Queen, for that matter, care about popularity, as such. Popularity is usually fleeting and fickle. I actually like that Henrik has always been unapologetically French in his attitudes and tastes and that neither he nor QM have ever tried to change to fit preconceived notions of how they should be. If he'd just left it at that no one would care.

There's a huge difference between the above and how he's handled the title/equality/precedence issue. He could have made his opinion known in a dignified manner and then let it be. He could also have spoken more openly about how he'd arrived at his position. Henrik is a likeable man in a lot of ways, with a good, well trained mind. If he'd been able to rein in his fits of pique and temper this all could have gone much better for him.

And no, even if he'd handled the issue perfectly, he still wouldn't have wound up as King. But he would have made his point in a gracious and respectful manner and that would be worthwhile in and of itself.
 
You mean they have a cunning plan...;)
I would have thought, that saying he wants to be buried in his native France would make him slightly less unpopular than announcing that he wants to be buried in Denmark, just not next to his wife of 50 years....

I think a burial in France, among his own ancestors, is indeed the best possible solution. I suspect it's really what he's always wanted anyway. He might be Henrik of Denmark but he is a Frenchman through and through.

He hasn't ever pretended not to be one.



Rudolph said:
The title is in her name. If Sweden's Madeleine married Prince William, she would still be Princess William.

At the British court, Women take their style from their husbands.

Then why did Princess Marina of Greece not become Princess George when she married the Duke of Kent earlier in the century? She was Princess Marina Duchess of Kent up to the day she died.

Madeleine as a born Royal Princess in her own right would have been HRH Princess Madeleine Duchess of Cambridge if she had married William. No one in the press or public would have called her "Princess William".
 
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The website of the Dutch Royal House writes as follows:

"As spouse of the King, Princess Máxima (!) is referred as Queen Máxima. Officially she is Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

[...]

But when the make for example an State Visit abroad in announcements/angeda et is is probably
TM the King and Queen of the Netherlands
and not TM The King of the Netherlands and Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands
 
Any chance this thread could return to Denmark?? ;)


Prince Henrik has said that he would like to be buried in France but his duty is to be buried in Roskilde. Until now.
 
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Posts that discussed the British Royal Family only have been removed as off-topic. It's fine to draw comparisons, but the discussion should still remain on-topic - thank you for your understanding!
 
Any chance this thread could return to Denmark?? ;)


Prince Henrik has said that he would like to be buried in France but his duty is to be buried in Roskilde. Until now.

I was wondering the same thing here for isn't this issue about PH and his fits of temper on where is wants to be buried, yet the thread is bouncing all over Europe...?
 
When you are a Prince and are fortunate enough to be one then it looks bad. You should not complain. Somebody made a good point- in death they were going to be equal. So why? Why worry? I guess the few days I've had- it just seems stupid.
 
When you are a Prince and are fortunate enough to be one then it looks bad. You should not complain. Somebody made a good point- in death they were going to be equal. So why? Why worry? I guess the few days I've had- it just seems stupid.


Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.
 
Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.

Exactly! Which reinforces the idea that either Prince Henrik is throwing a temper tantrum because he isn't King or he has lost all perspective of reality.
 
Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.
Exactly ! Nobody could have said it so well !
 
I'll echo those sentiments. It really makes it seem that with requesting burial elsewhere, Henrik has bit off his nose to spite his face.

For someone that really, really wanted to be King Consort, it just doesn't make sense to decline an eternal honor to be buried with kings and queens to be buried somewhere more "ordinary" and "mundane" and "common". Its almost as if he's contradicting himself.
 
While I dislike what he has chosen, it is HIS CHOICE, however confused it seems to us. I think we can all agree it's not ideal, but I think dissecting it all borders on throwing stones. I feel a bit like the thread is knocking someone when they are down - and what is the point in that? So that we can feel superior to him?

Well it seems we do feel superior, and if we actually are superior, we should move on. In the same way the Queen seems to be handling it. Classy. JMO.
 
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And I do realize that it is absurd to reference equality in any discussion regarding a monarchy when the whole institution is based purely on what family you are born into or marry into. The fact that there are people who would bow or curtsey to anyone based on what family they were born into, or even more so, marry into, or otherwise think them superior, has no place in society as we are about to enter the 3rd decade of the 21st century. My opinions, MMV.

I think many people living in monarchies agree with that sentiment in principle but are willing to leave things as is as long as the royals in question don't step out of line. It's like the appendix - you don't need it but you're probably not going to go through the trouble of having it out unless it gets infected.

Does even the most devoted monarchist think royalty is superior to the rest of us in this day and age? Especially now that the next generation of monarchs are by and large at most half royal and at least half regular middle class commoners. IMO royalty comprises a group of people with interesting family backgrounds who have a unique but not irreplaceable role to play in society. The system can work very well as long as everyone is able to easily ignore the fact that it doesn't make much sense in modern times.
 
Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.
Exactly ! Nobody could have said it so well !
 
Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.

Very good point.
PH cannot wish for a more distinguished place to be laid to rest. All Danish monarchs and practically all the queens for the past 500-600 years or so, have been laid to rest at Roskilde Cathedral.
PH couldn't possibly be more included in the DRF! And it's not like his tomb is placed next to the wastebasket in the parking lot.
So his argument about not feeling a part of the DRF is at best pretty difficult to understand.

There is BTW a peculiar tradition regarding Danish kings. If they were killed in battle or assassinated they were always buried locally, but if they died from old age or illness they were brought back to wherever they wished to be buried. Except for one who died during a pilgrimage. I believe he is buried in Cyprus.
It's unknown why that was the case.
Anyway the last Danish king to be assassinated was Erik Klipping back in 1286. He was laid to rest at Viborg Cathedral, which was the nearest cathedral to where he was killed. And there he remains to this day.
- That murder still fascinates, because it's still an open question as to who was really behind the murder.

I think many people living in monarchies agree with that sentiment in principle but are willing to leave things as is as long as the royals in question don't step out of line. It's like the appendix - you don't need it but you're probably not going to go through the trouble of having it out unless it gets infected.

Does even the most devoted monarchist think royalty is superior to the rest of us in this day and age? Especially now that the next generation of monarchs are by and large at most half royal and at least half regular middle class commoners. IMO royalty comprises a group of people with interesting family backgrounds who have a unique but not irreplaceable role to play in society. The system can work very well as long as everyone is able to easily ignore the fact that it doesn't make much sense in modern times.

I disagree with you. It makes a lot of sense, also in modern context.
The DRF has been around since before Denmark became a nation.
There has never been a period in Danish history when Denmark wasn't a monarchy, there have been periods without a king, but never without a monarchy.
QMII, as you know can trace her lineage, directly back to the first official king of Denmark, Gorm the Old. That's a lot of family-history!
The DRF is such an ingrained part of Danish history, culture and mindset, that even the most hardcore anti-royalist can't ignore it.
The DRF are not distant living symbols of my country. DK is such a small country that there is a very good chance that I will encounter them both on the job and in private. That means there is a direct link between me as a citizen and the DRF.
The DRF are not superior as humans, they are superior as living symbols of my country. They are living role-models. They are the foremost representatives of my country.
And their lives are not so alien to me, that I cannot reflect myself in what ups and downs they go through as well as the good and bad sides of the individual member's characters.
So I choose to treat them with respect (PH is on the verge of losing my respect though), partly because they are living symbols of my country and partly becauseI think they have earned my respect.

I bow my head to the members of the DRF, not because I have to, but because I want to.

While I dislike what he has chosen, it is HIS CHOICE, however confused it seems to us. I think we can all agree it's not ideal, but I think dissecting it all borders on throwing stones. I feel a bit like the thread is knocking someone when they are down - and what is the point in that? So that we can feel superior to him?

Well it seems we do feel superior, and if we actually are superior, we should move on. In the same way the Queen seems to be handling it. Classy. JMO.

It's not PH's choice to be buried elsewhere I find infuriating. It's that he is snubbing his wife, my Queen, I find despicable.
Practically all Danish couples who choose to be buried, are buried together. It's quite rare for married couples to be buried separately, and if that happens it's usually for practical reasons, like their families living in different parts of the country. There is a strong traditional symbolism in being buried together, for those who choose to. - That will also explain some of the reaction from the public.
But it is first and foremost PH being seen as deliberately wounding and insulting his wife - for a reason I dare say most Danes simply cannot understand.
We, I, cannot understand that a question of title, a title that makes no practical difference to PH anyway, is so important that PH is willing to embarrass someone who ought to be one of the most dearest and precious persons in his life, his wife for 50 years.
And to be more abstract or perhaps subconscious if you prefer, PH is deliberately embarrassing and hurting the first family of our tribe. The living symbols of our tribe. If you snub the symbols of my tribe, you snub me. So yes, people are pretty annoyed with PH.
It's not that we don't talk about anything else, we do, but when we talk about PH these days, he is finding very little sympathy. And should QMII decide to placate him by giving him the title of king-consort, or letting him be addressed majesty, there would be a public uproar!
 
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Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.

Maybe he means that only Kings and Queens are interred in Roskilde Domkirke (with the exception of one Crown Prince). All of them are laid to rest with their Queen besides them (if married). The only female Sovereign interred in Roskilde, Margrethe I, lies there without her spouse (Håkon VI Magnusson). But the Prince could have foreseen that of course.

While I dislike what he has chosen, it is HIS CHOICE, however confused it seems to us. I think we can all agree it's not ideal, but I think dissecting it all borders on throwing stones. I feel a bit like the thread is knocking someone when they are down - and what is the point in that? So that we can feel superior to him?

Well it seems we do feel superior, and if we actually are superior, we should move on. In the same way the Queen seems to be handling it. Classy. JMO.

Indeed, it seems the Queen and the royal family have a certain understanding for the way Henrik sees things. At the other hand, they can do zero, comma zero about it. It is the Government (and the Parliament) who is in charge with the systematic as it is.
 
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Although I sympathize with the idea of male consorts of reigning queens being called kings, I don't understand PH's rationale. He says that he can't be buried beside his wife because he is not really considered a member of the RF and is not "equal" to her. However, being buried by Margrethe's side at a site where former kings and queen consorts are buried apppears to me to be precisely a way to signify that his status or rank is equivalent to the status or rank that a female consort would have.

Excellent point Mbruno.

I have a question for our Danish experts.....

Could, can, Margrette grant a royal decree giving PH king's consort status? My understanding is that while the future husband of Leonor of Spain will have the dignity of a Prince and the style of HRH, she will have the power to change it by modification of the royal decree giving her spouse the status of king and style of majesty. It will only affect status and style, not equal rights. There can never be equal rights for the partner/spouse of a regnant sovereign who is also head of state.
 
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Excellent point Mbruno.

I have a question for our Danish experts.....

Could, can, Margrette grant a royal decree giving PH king's consort status? My understanding is that while the future husband of Leonor of Spain will have the dignity of a Prince and the style of HRH, she will have the power to change it by modification of the royal decree giving her spouse the status of king and style of majesty. It will only affect status and style, not equal rights. There can never be equal rights for the partner/spouse of a regnant sovereign who is also head of state.

You are right.
QMII can grant him more or less any title she want, except king. She can give him the title of king consort as well.
The problem is that the Danish word for consort is "gemal" (or gemalinde for women), so the title of "kongegemal" does actually mean: husband of the king. - If I am to be pedantic.
Okay, he previously had the title of prinsgemal, which literally means: husband of the prince, but it was at once accepted to mean: princely husband. So kongegemal = kingly husband.
Perhaps we should reserve that title for the first gay king who marries a man? ;)
And the title "dronningegemalinde" for the fist lesbian queen marrying another woman.

Absolute a must view!

In this link PH is speaking to a journalist from Se & Hør about the issue. Normally Se & Hør has next to no credit, but here we can hear him speak and it's bad! I mean seriously bad!

Eksklusivt interview med prins Henrik: Hun gør mig til nar

He says: Det er hende, der gør mig til en nar. Jeg har ikke giftet mig med dronningen for at blive begravet i Roskilde, fort
"She is the one who is making me a fool. I have not married the Queen in order to be buried in Roskilde".

Min kone har besluttet, at hun gerne vil være dronning, og det er jeg meget glad for. Men som menneske skal hun vide, at hvis en mand og kone er gift, så er de lige, påp
"My wife has decided that she would like to be Queen and I'm very pleased with that. But as a person she must know that if a man and woman are married, then they are equal".

At first in the video he says: "My wife has not shown me the respect an ordinary wife (informal word) should show her spouse".

-----------------

http://politiken.dk/indland/art6059728/Prins-Henrik-Dronningen-gør-mig-til-nar

Also in Politiken. PH, according to Se & Hør, emphasize that he loves his wife.
QMII will arrive at Chateau Cayz today.
 
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Nope, he's made himself look like a fool. This is a man who takes no responsibility for his own actions. Again, I point to Prince Philip, who I'm sure has/had similar or the same feelings but understands the monarchy and his wife's place at its head. Henrik continues to sound like petulant child.
 
Min kone har besluttet, at hun gerne vil være dronning, og det er jeg meget glad for. Men som menneske skal hun vide, at hvis en mand og kone er gift, så er de lige, påp
"My wife has decided that she would like to be Queen and I'm very pleased with that. But as a person she must know that if a man and woman are married, then they are equal".

This clearly, to me, shows skewered thinking. There is a total difference between equality in a marriage and equality in things outside a marriage such as the Queen's royal role.

To me, its like Henrik saying that if his wife had decided to train to work as a theoretical physicist, then because Henrik married her, he should hold equal rank as a theoretical physicist. For him there is no concept of individuality in a marriage and as a couple they *must* be equal in all things.

Henrik's words have proven that his wife has not made a fool of him, he's done a good job of that himself. This is what makes me think that there's some kind of mental disturbance happening here.
 
What do you think, when looking at the video. (Most of you have the advantage here in not understanding what he says) Is he losing it, you think?
 
Absolute a must view!

In this link PH is speaking to a journalist from Se & Hør about the issue. Normally Se & Hør has next to no credit, but here we can hear him speak and it's bad! I mean seriously bad!

Eksklusivt interview med prins Henrik: Hun gør mig til nar

He says: Det er hende, der gør mig til en nar. Jeg har ikke giftet mig med dronningen for at blive begravet i Roskilde, fort
"She is the one who is making me a fool. I have not married the Queen in order to be buried in Roskilde".

Min kone har besluttet, at hun gerne vil være dronning, og det er jeg meget glad for. Men som menneske skal hun vide, at hvis en mand og kone er gift, så er de lige, påp
"My wife has decided that she would like to be Queen and I'm very pleased with that. But as a person she must know that if a man and woman are married, then they are equal".

At first in the video he says: "My wife has not shown me the respect an ordinary wife (informal word) should show her spouse".

-----------------

Prins Henrik: Dronningen gør mig til nar - politiken.dk

Also in Politiken. PH, according to Se & Hør, emphasize that he loves his wife.
QMII will arrive at Chateau Cayz today.

After reading this, I do think it is senility. We know Prince Henrik has always felt his status should be higher from previous episodes. But he is irrational now. Perhaps he grew up believing a wife was subservient to her husband and as he has grown older this is revealing itself even more? If seems he can't stand the fact that his wife is the Queen and he is "only" her husband.
None of this is love or respect for his wife.
 
After reading this, I do think it is senility. We know Prince Henrik has always felt his status should be higher from previous episodes. But he is irrational now. Perhaps he grew up believing a wife was subservient to her husband and as he has grown older this is revealing itself even more? If seems he can't stand the fact that his wife is the Queen and he is "only" her husband.
None of this is love or respect for his wife.

Yeah.

Wonder what the DRF has to say? After this they are more or less bound to come out with a statement in a few days, when QMII has had time to access the situation.
 
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