Prince Henrik: "I Should Be King" Discussion

[Duc_et_Pair]

The best solution to this issue is to make spouses to a reining monarch Prince/Princess Consort. I just can not imagine Prince Henrik or for that matter Prince Daniel or Prince Philip (D of E) being called King. We are just more familiar with a Queen being a spouse of a reigning King although there have been and will be reigning Queens.

That was the original intention in the Netherlands. Like Máxima was never "The Princess of Orange" since that title has become exclusively for the Heir(ess) alone, she would also be "The Princess of the Netherlands" alike her predecessors Claus von Amsberg, Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld and Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin. It is also written in the Royal House Act 2002: the spouse of the King is Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

Sadly in 2013, when Queen Beatrix abdicated, the current Government found it "undesirable" that Máxima would be treated differently from her "colleagues". So they came with a -typical Dutch- ugly compromise:

For law she is and remains Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

In "social context" she can be addressed with her husband's style (like all female spouses of titled gentlemen) and become known as "Queen Máxima".

Result: Her Majesty Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands (!), Princess of Orange-Nassau.

I wished that the Government had just respected the law, because Máxima's own daughter Amalia will marry and her husband will be known as The Prince of the Netherlands. So there are we again.... Too bad that the one Government in 2002 regulated a gender neutral titulature but that another Government in 2013 changed its mind and respected the 2002 regulation at one hand but "uglied" it with a last-moment invention.



What is wrong with:

HM The King of Denmark
HRH The Princess-Consort

HM The Queen of Denmark
HRH The Prince-Consort

or

HM The King of the Netherlands
HRH The Princess of the Netherlands

HM The Queen of the Netherlands
HRH The Prince of the Netherlands

 

[Muhler]

Due to PH having Alzheimer or something like that?
I've been thinking about that. The behavior can be very embarrassing for relatives, as you know, and there is very little you can do. QMII can't order the guards to hold him back, that's against the law. It's violence if you physically restrain an Alzheimer patient, unless he is in imminent danger.

But I don't think he suffers from anything in any advanced stage. Though he may now have become so fixated on the idea about becoming king that it clouds his better judgement.

We'll see, if PH is suddenly absent from the Indonesia trip or the next New Year Courts due to "illness", that could be an indication that his mind is deteriorating.

And what to do? Well, I imagine the family will hire nurses 24/7 and set up a quiet little ward somewhere, probably at Fredensborg or even better Marselisborg, where there is a large hospital nearby and plenty of experienced nurses to pick from. Here he can be visited by the family and should he run off, it will be difficult for him to go very far. (The standard GPS alarms only go off after a couple of hundred meters or more).

I can't see QMII abdicating because of that, but I can well imagine QMII moving in at say Marselisborg with PH during the last couple of years or so, to look after him. That would mean M&F will take over even more.
I can't imagine any public call for QMII to abdicate over that, on the contrary, she and PH will be showered with sympathy.
And QMII will still make an appearance from time to time and still be able to do a number of functions, even if Frederik is running the company on a daily basis.
Alternatively, he could be moved to Cayx, but that only makes it more difficult for family, friends and not least QMII to be around.


If I am to be honest I don't think gender-equality is or has ever been the biggest concern on PH's mind.

What is wrong with:

HM The King of Denmark
HRH The Princess-Consort

HM The Queen of Denmark
HRH The Prince-Consort

or

HM The King of the Netherlands
HRH The Princess of the Netherlands

HM The Queen of the Netherlands
HRH The Prince of the Netherlands

Nothing wrong with that.

But why change something that works? And has been working since forever.
Why demote Mary and later Christian's wife, just because PH grumbles?
AFAIK PH is the only one for whom this is a serious issue. Britain - works fine. The Netherlands - worked fine.
Especially as it has no practical meaning whatsoever anyway.

No, IMO the core of this issue is that PH sees himself as the patriarch of the DRF, he has been treated as the patriarch of the family (except when it comes to the daily administration but I bet he would have loved to take over that as well) and he want's to remain the patriarch of the family as long as he lives.
Keep in mind that he ran off to France fairly shortly after Queen Ingrid died. Queen Ingrid being the matriarch of the DRF, also in traditional French context. Perhaps he imagined he should now take over completely? Only to discover that that's not the piano plays and that the court administration did not answer to him, but to QMII. - He complained how he was treated by the court officials remember.

Another core issue, again IMO, is that he is jealous of his son, and do not wish to be "subservient" to his son. By becoming "king" and "majesty" he perhaps imagine he will be somehow equal to his son - but he won't.
In PH's world view he will feel humiliated if he has to move from his ccurrent position at the right flank and down the line, when the family lines up to greet guests.
I think we can expect him to be "ill" at such events in the future.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Or why not make King and Queen gender neutral?
King = regent
Queen = consort

Language is evolutionary...

 

[hernameispekka]

Or why not make King and Queen gender neutral?
King = regent
Queen = consort

Language is evolutionary...

So you mean like... King Elizabeth and Queen Phillip? I think it's too soon in our society. Would be alot of dragqueen jokes etc. The King part might work but not the queen, not yet at least. What might work better might be The King and The Consort? Or even "Monarch & Consort".

 

[Muhler]

But that's already covered anyway.
In legal context QMII is already the Monarch or the Regent. It's only in the Constitution that the word king has not been substituted with monarch.

Why confuse the issue by having a queen-regnant and a king-consort, when we all know that in daily use and in headlines it will be king and and queen anyway. And Joe and Jolene average reading the headlines will automatically assume the king is the top dog. Using the current method that is avoided.

We are talking about introducing equality into institutions that are conservative and based on a hierarchy, where people can be treated equal but no one is equal.
Example: According to the protocol Joachim and our Marie have the same status, but Joachim is Prince to Denmark, Marie is Princess of Denmark, so they are not equal.

Gender equality has already been introduces AFAIK now in all European monarchies. Which means that the firstborn, regardless of gender becomes the heir. That IMO is genuine gender equality. The issue of titles that's misunderstood political correctness.

Anyway, at some point in the future we will face a more interesting challenge in regards to titles:
Should it be King and King or King and Prince Consort?
Alternatively Queen and Queen or Queen and Princess Consort.

Because if PH is granted the title of king, then it will be King and King one day. - And now my head begins to hurt big time!

 

[Lee-Z]

No matter what title he has, he still holds the formally speaking second highest position in DK as long as QMII is alive. He can't go any higher! So what's the problem?

That might *be* the problem: he is dependent on his wife for his title. Even if he were to be called "king", when P.Frederik becomes the monarch, K.Hendrik will be demoted in position to come after his son and daughter in law (and possibly his grandson).

I think his pride is hurt or he feels emasculated, but these are things that he should work on, maybe with a therapist, not go blurting it out in the media...

imo obviously

 

[Roslyn]

That might *be* the problem: he is dependent on his wife for his title. Even if he were to be called "king", when P.Frederik becomes the monarch, K.Hendrik will be demoted in position to come after his son and daughter in law (and possibly his grandson).

I think his pride is hurt or he feels emasculated, but these are things that he should work on, maybe with a therapist, not go blurting it out in the media...

imo obviously

Henrik should have been working on these issues for the last 48 years. He must have known what he was taking on when he married Margarethe, and it really is time he came to terms with reality.

 

[michelleq]

The IMO frustrating thing about PH's complaints is that's about such trivial details.

PH is talking about equality within an institution that is based on inequality. The whole idea about having a monarch is that the monarch is above everybody else.
That alone leaves my head buzzing.

No matter what title he has, he still holds the formally speaking second highest position in DK as long as QMII is alive. He can't go any higher! So what's the problem?

If we compare PH and Mary in her future role, there will, as far as I can tell, be only two differences between them.
Mary will be titled queen and be addressed as majesty. - That's it.
Apart from that there will be no difference between them at all.

Mary will not have a Constitutional role either.
She will hold the second highest position in the country.
She will never be equal to her husband.
Should Frederik become ill during a New Year Court, she will probably address the guests on behalf of the family, while her son Christian, whom she hopefully isn't jealous on, will address the guests on behalf of the head of state.

Should Frederik die before Mary, Mary will have to walk behind Christian and his wife one day.

The difference between being titled a queen and a prince consort is comparable to calling a street-sweeper a Road Sanitation Technician - but he still sweeps the streets...

Very well put! I agree.

 

[wartenberg7]

When will this old fool finally keeps his mouth shut?

 

[Princess of Durham]

Unfortunately, I believe he is "ill". I did some searching and discovered that he was making inappropriate comments as far back as 2002. I think we are just seeing a progression of the illness. How difficult this must be for the family given they are in the limelight.

 

[vkrish]

in a lighter vein, i read somewhere that the only plausible solution now is to declare that in future wife of king will be princess consort, not queen..
the reaction of mary and her aussie media fans would be priceless, though..
and thats not a big deal..when the time is right, a gentle nudge to a sympathetic politician is enough to get the parliament grant her the style of queen "as per social convention," just like maxima got it done..

 

[royal rob]

in a lighter vein, i read somewhere that the only plausible solution now is to declare that in future wife of king will be princess consort, not queen..
the reaction of mary and her aussie media fans would be priceless, though..
and thats not a big deal..when the time is right, a gentle nudge to a sympathetic politician is enough to get the parliament grant her the style of queen "as per social convention," just like maxima got it done..

I don't think Mary would care what she was called !!!!
Neither would us Aussies we are not like the Camila gang who are so distressed at thought of her not being called Queen


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[Roslyn]

I don't think Mary would care what she was called !!!!
Neither would us Aussies we are not like the Camila gang who are so distressed at thought of her not being called Queen

I agree about Mary. She was raised an Aussie. She might actually be pleased with such an outcome.

And I can't imagine her Aussie followers would get their knickers in a twist if Mary wasn't called Queen. She'd be just as interesting as wife of the King and mother of a Crown Prince no matter what she's called.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Again, I think we are seeing the effects of old age.

 

[grevinnan]

If his comments are due to old age then what is the reason for Prince Philip's often very in-appropriate comments starting a long time ago? Prince Henrik is "mad as hell" about his perceived "slight" and young or old, it has bothered him for a very long time.

 

[carlota]

this is true. gender equality needs to work both ways. if this were a woman, she will probably be queen and not just princess. why doesn't henri get the same treatment? is there word on what mary's title will be when frederik becomes king? i bet she will get to be styled as queen, in which case it's unfair for henri to be prince only.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I think he comes of incredibly uneducated every time he opens his mouth about this subject. As though he doesn't bother to enlighten himself on the matter. As though he virtually doesn't know that, historically, the title of "King" has ranged higher than the title of "Queen".

He also comes off as extremely ungrateful. Title-wise, he would be nothing if he hadn't married QMII (this title of Count the DRF is pushing is highly dubious). That alone should just make him grateful that she has elevated him to Prince and since Prince Consort. While I like Henrik and genuinely believe him to be a very grounded person (evident by the way he can talk and have a laugh with anyone), I think it's very insensitive and first world-like of him to keep bringing this up. And he's not doing himself any favours by continuously doing so, that's for sure.

That said, I would love to see Queen Consort Henrik happen

Neither would us Aussies we are not like the Camila gang who are so distressed at thought of her not being called Queen

But you can't compare the two cases. There was no precedent for Henrik's case but a nice solution in form of Prince Consort has been introduced for him, yet he keeps moaning about not being the King. In Camilla's case, she's (probably) refusing the title of Queen because she's afraid of the reactions it would feed. And IMO that's wrong. Camilla has every right to use the title of Queen and so she should.

 

[royal rob]

I think he comes of incredibly uneducated every time he opens his mouth about this subject. As though he doesn't bother to enlighten himself on the matter. As though he virtually doesn't know that, historically, the title of "King" has ranged higher than the title of "Queen".



He also comes off as extremely ungrateful. Title-wise, he would be nothing if he hadn't married QMII (this title of Count the DRF is pushing is highly dubious). That alone should just make him grateful that she has elevated him to Prince and since Prince Consort. While I like Henrik and genuinely believe him to be a very grounded person (evident by the way he can talk and have a laugh with anyone), I think it's very insensitive and first world-like of him to keep bringing this up. And he's not doing himself any favours by continuously doing so, that's for sure.



That said, I would love to see Queen Consort Henrik happen







But you can't compare the two cases. There was no precedent for Henrik's case but a nice solution in form of Prince Consort has been introduced for him, yet he keeps moaning about not being the King. In Camilla's case, she's (probably) refusing the title of Queen because she's afraid of the reactions it would feed. And IMO that's wrong. Camilla has every right to use the title of Queen and so she should.

I'm not comparing them I'm saying we Aussies wouldn't care


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[MARG]

While Denmark has a Prince Consort who is, at present, a thorn in the side of the DRF, raging at the "dying of the light", you mostly have a country that grins and bears his eccentricities or maybe grinds their teeth thinking, "this too shall pass".

The thing that intrigues me about this thread is all those non-Danes who seem to think that centuries of history should be tossed aside and the Consort named either King or Queen or Prince and Princess, for no other reasons that they think that is the way it should be.

Now if those people were from monarchies set up in such a way it would irritate me but not overly so. However, most of these "radical" calls have come from those in Republics who have no monarchy.

To me the questions are:

Do these people think theirs is the only way; or

do they think we should all fold up our tents, split the crown jewels and become a republic within in their utopian dream?

 

[hernameispekka]

While Denmark has a Prince Consort who is, at present, a thorn in the side of the DRF, raging at the "dying of the light", you mostly have a country that grins and bears his eccentricities or maybe grinds their teeth thinking, "this too shall pass".

The thing that intrigues me about this thread is all those non-Danes who seem to think that centuries of history should be tossed aside and the Consort named either King or Queen or Prince and Princess, for no other reasons that they think that is the way it should be.

Now if those people were from monarchies set up in such a way it would irritate me but not overly so. However, most of these "radical" calls have come from those in Republics who have no monarchy.

To me the questions are:

Do these people think theirs is the only way; or

do they think we should all fold up our tents, split the crown jewels and become a republic within in their utopian dream?

I'm from a monarchy which will have a Queen Victoria and Prince Daniel in a near future and another Queen after that if all goes well. I have just pointed out that this is a real discussion that has to be talked about within the monarchies since it doesn't seem fair that a male consort is not curtsied too while a female consort is. I think the best thing would be the King-Queen/Queen-Prince version but that the accompanying appendix of "Consort" makes it majesty. So if you're a princess or a crown princess you're a your highness and ranked after that. But if you are a prince consort you become a your majesty and the same rank as a Queen consort.

So what I'm saying is that Henri has a small point, but is a fool.

 

[fearghas]

I'm not comparing them I'm saying we Aussies wouldn't care


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you don't speak for me. I do care

 

[marfre]

you don't speak for me. I do care

Sorry, what do you care about?

 

[Muhler]

you don't speak for me. I do care

So do I.

I can't see why we in the holy names of political correctness and gender equality should "demote" Mary to princess consort. Especially as the current system has worked fine for more than a thousand years.
And also since PH is a dying breed. I.e. the type of man who per default see himself as the patriarch of the family and therefore must have a corresponding title.

Look at Albert in UK, he wielded more power and more influence than PH could ever hope for, yet he seemed perfectly contend with his "modest" title. - And that was 150 years ago.

 

[Skippyboo]

If the other monarchies, don't follow suit. It would be the same problem of the wife of the King is a Princess Consort. No other European monarchy has the husband of a Queen Regent as a King Consort. Henrik is in the same position as Philip.


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[Winnie]

Many years ago we were always taught that the title of KING is the highest of all in the land. Queen second. The reason Prince Philip was not made King was because he would have had a higher position in the country over his wife, a queen. That was taught back in the 50s when Queen Elizabeth II took the crown. Men always took top billing and Philip definitely was not top in country so he could not be king. It was the way things were and taught.


Now, times have changed along with titles, etc. and people want everything to change with it. I see nothing wrong with a complimentary title of king if in fact his wife is still recognized as head of country. She would still have all the rights and responsibilities of queen while he just had his wanted courtesy title. But, it would have to be made clear that if the queen died, he would not be head of country and not reigning king. That honor would be passed on to the heir. Really I don't see the fuss as long as guidelines were set in stone, so to speak.

 

[Princess of Durham]

Except I think that would open a can of worms. Sometime in the future a country could have a "power" hungry king and it could become a problem. NOW, the problem seems to be just PH, and honestly, he needs to get over it. He knew the rules of the game when he married QM. Maybe down deep he expected he could change things. If he truly is that old school he may have thought he could wield enough influence as a husband to change things. He just seems like an angry, foolish old man.

 

[hernameispekka]

Except I think that would open a can of worms. Sometime in the future a country could have a "power" hungry king and it could become a problem. NOW, the problem seems to be just PH, and honestly, he needs to get over it. He knew the rules of the game when he married QM. Maybe down deep he expected he could change things. If he truly is that old school he may have thought he could wield enough influence as a husband to change things. He just seems like an angry, foolish old man.

Exactly. The thing is that in some documents it says "the king" and not the monarch. Which doesn't matter much right now. But if there was a King Consort that wanted to take of advantage of that it could get really nasty. So they would have to change documents (which usually is a rather long process). So it's just easier to keep it as it is for the moment.

 

[Winnie]

NOW, the problem seems to be just PH, and honestly, he needs to get over it. He knew the rules of the game when he married QM. Maybe down deep he expected he could change things. If he truly is that old school he may have thought he could wield enough influence as a husband to change things. He just seems like an angry, foolish old man.

I don't know about foolish, just an old man that might be going through a bit of on-set dementia. Sometimes this is a slow process that takes a good twenty years to form, starting when the person is in their 40/50s. It happens more than we realize but doesn't manifest until later in life. Whatever the reason, his family will protect him and his loving grandchildren will make sure he is happy.

Sure he knew when he married he wouldn't be "king" and that his wife would always hold a higher station in life. Maybe he was tired of playing second fiddle after all these years and wanted to stir a bit of trouble and see what happens. You never know, some people might have seen his side of things. Strange thing happen all the time. I just don't believe he looks all that well anymore.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] So they would have to change documents (which usually is a rather long process). So it's just easier to keep it as it is for the moment.

Well it is not that difficult to change all documents in one go. When in 1890, after only Kings, suddenly a Queen became head of the state (in the Netherlands), a simple Act was published:

"As long as the Crown is worn by a Queen, in all legal documents, all titles of offices and all offical namings, the word King must be read as Queen, with respect for all necessary linguïstic changes connected to this."

This means that -for an example- a verdict with the rubber stamp "In The Name Of The King!" still is lawful, even when there is a Queen, thanks to this ultra-short Act. So it will all by all not that difficult in today's monarchies to adapt linguïstic changes in formal documents.

 

[hernameispekka]

Well it is not that difficult to change all documents in one go. When in 1890, after only Kings, suddenly a Queen became head of the state (in the Netherlands), a simple Act was published:

"As long as the Crown is worn by a Queen, in all legal documents, all titles of offices and all offical namings, the word King must be read as Queen, with respect for all necessary linguïstic changes connected to this."

This means that -for an example- a verdict with the rubber stamp "In The Name Of The King!" still is lawful, even when there is a Queen, thanks to this ultra-short Act. So it will all by all not that difficult in today's monarchies to adapt linguïstic changes in formal documents.

True. I don't mean that the actually rewriting is hard. But here in Sweden for example we need 2 votes by the government to get the same result, separated by an election to change is the Succession law (which is were these things are). So I doubt the government would want to put money and time towards a sematics issue.