Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Tatiana Maria said:
Possibly for the same reason that so many people claim that Gustav's grandfather wrote a racist inheritance clause about Aryan blood into his will, even though the full text of the will is available to read on public websites and it obviously includes no such thing. :ermm: If you or anyone should ever find out what that reason is, please tell me.


It is technically true that Gustav was an heir (though not the first or only heir) to his grandfather. According to the system of reversionary succession employed by Gustav Albrecht in his last testament, each heir who is appointed through the will is an heir to the testator, not an heir to the prior heir. From the legal point of view, Richard inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht and then, after Richard's death, Gustav inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht (instead of the "normal" course of Richard inheriting from Gustav Albrecht and Gustav inheriting from Richard).

The difference in practice is that under this arrangement, Gustav's inheritance was regulated by the laws at the time of Gustav Albrecht's legal death in 1945, rather than the laws at the time of Richard's death in 2017. This was beneficial to Gustav in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim.
Click to expand...
Thank you for taking the time to respond that makes sense to me now. So Gustav was inheriting via the will of his grandfather and therefore not the will of his own father.
 
:previous: You're very welcome; it was a good question. :)

Kataryn said:
It's easy to say now we have the final judgment what could be done back then, but I believe the losing of his inheritance was so abhorrend, simply impossible for Gustav, probably enforced mentally, at least inbred in him by his parents, that he wouldn't marry Carina, no matter how big the love. And it truely was love, for all his maternal relations acted as if they were already married even though they weren't.
Click to expand...

To be clear, my only opinions on what Gustav should have done are that

1) he should not have allowed his grandfather to be smeared by false allegations of being a racist Nazi testator from royal watchers and journalists,

2) he should not have insinuated that his cousin Ludwig-Ferdinand supported Nazi ideas in his press release about their dispute, and

3) he should not have hypocritically invoked the Civil Code's public morality clause in Section 138(1) when it suited his purposes and then circumvented that clause when it became inconvenient to him.


But as to your point about the loss of his inheritance being an impossible thought for Gustav, he did appear to be prepared to lose it in order to marry Elvire de Rochefort, with whom he announced a wedding date before the couple separated over financial issues (there is a thread on this forum about their engagement). She and her father belonged to an untitled French family, so it seems likely that she was not noble.
 
Last edited:
Tatiana Maria said:
The difference in practice is that under this arrangement, Gustav's inheritance was regulated by the laws at the time of Gustav Albrecht's legal death in 1945, rather than the laws at the time of Richard's death in 2017. This was beneficial to Gustav in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim.
Click to expand...
What was exactly beneficial in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim? Wouldn't L-F had no claim at all if Richard had been the one to inherit from instead of Gustav Albrecht? Maybe Gustav's sisters would have been co-claimants in that case but I don't fully understand how L-F would still have a claim over the inheritance if Gustav was to inherit directly from his father...
 
Archduchess Zelia said:
But you're arguing Gustav Albrecht and his sister would not have been affected by being born out of wedlock? That Gustav Albrecht could one day have inherited the headship of the house of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and the Berleburg estate even if he had been born out of wedlock? I'd like to hear how you make that work!
Click to expand...
Of course they would have been affected. But he could have inherited, If he was borm illegitimely as child of Gustav and Carina, he could be adopted by them, thus make him their "real" child according to German law, he would be his father's firstborn and inherit all. Remember: we are talking private German citizens here, the name Prinz" is just a different name from "Herr" because of history, but the legal value is the same. The estate is private, too and Gustav can do with it as he wants. As for the Headship? In most families, the power is where the money is. And everyone wpuld know that he is Gustav's real child. It would be easy for them to accept him. Not really but when did a family really accept a head.

It could have been done, but clarly the risk was deemed to high and thus it didn't happen. I'm so glad they could come up with a way that was legal in the US and the children were accepted in Germany.
 
Kataryn said:
Of course they would have been affected. But he could have inherited, If he was borm illegitimely as child of Gustav and Carina, he could be adopted by them, thus make him their "real" child according to German law, he would be his father's firstborn and inherit all. Remember: we are talking private German citizens here, the name Prinz" is just a different name from "Herr" because of history, but the legal value is the same. The estate is private, too and Gustav can do with it as he wants. As for the Headship? In most families, the power is where the money is. And everyone wpuld know that he is Gustav's real child. It would be easy for them to accept him. Not really but when did a family really accept a head.

It could have been done, but clarly the risk was deemed to high and thus it didn't happen. I'm so glad they could come up with a way that was legal in the US and the children were accepted in Germany.
Click to expand...
Why did Gustav break up with his fiancee Elvire?
 
Somebody said:
What was exactly beneficial in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim? Wouldn't L-F had no claim at all if Richard had been the one to inherit from instead of Gustav Albrecht? Maybe Gustav's sisters would have been co-claimants in that case but I don't fully understand how L-F would still have a claim over the inheritance if Gustav was to inherit directly from his father...
Click to expand...
That's an excellent point. It has been reported time and time again that Gustav Albrecht skipped Richard in the line of inheritance to save on taxes.
 
kalnel said:
That's an excellent point. It has been reported time and time again that Gustav Albrecht skipped Richard in the line of inheritance to save on taxes.
Click to expand...

Those ''reports" have been thoroughly debunked. The court judgments (which are free for anyone to read and have been posted here "time and time again") set out, in extensive detail, both the text of Gustav Albrecht's will and the sequence and dates of ownership of the estate: first Richard, then Gustav. (If Richard had been skipped for Gustav as you claim, why would Gustav have needed to fight to inherit the estate after his father's death in 2017?)

As you have reposted the claim, I will repost the credible sources which disprove it.


Here is the quotation from the ruling of the OLG Hamm (Higher Regional Court of Hamm) regarding Richard's certification as the first heir of his father's estate:

Am 31. 12. 1970 erteilte das AG Bad Berleburg dem ältesten Sohn des Erblassers, [...] (künftig: Vorerbe), einen Erbschein, der diesen als Vorerben des Erblassers auswies. Dieser Erbschein wurde in der Folge wegen einer unvollständigen Bezeichnung der potentiellen Nacherben berichtigt und dem Vorerben am 10. 8. 1971 ein berichtigter Erbschein erteilt. Aus der Ehe des Vorerben mit [...] Prinzessin zu Dänemark, sind insgesamt drei Kinder hervorgegangen, der am 12. 1. 1969 geborene Beteiligte zu 1), die 1975 geborene Beteiligte zu 7) sowie eine weitere im Jahr 1970 geborene Tochter.

Translation

On December 31, 1970, the District Court of Bad Berleburg issued the eldest son of the deceased, [name redacted] (hereafter "the prior heir") a certificate of inheritance which identified him as the prior heir to the testator. This certificate of inheritance was subsequently corrected due to an incomplete description of the potential subsequent heirs, and the prior heir was issued a corrected certificate of inheritance on August 10, 1971. From the marriage of the prior heir to [name redacted] Princess to Denmark issued a total of three children, Party 1 born on January 12, 1969, Party 7 born in 1975 and another daughter born in 1970.​

Link to the ruling.


Below is the quotation from Gustav Albrecht's will (quoted in the same judgment), stipulating that his eldest son (Richard) was his heir:

„Im Falle meines Todes soll mein ältester Sohn Alleinerbe sein, jedoch nur Vorerbe auf Lebenszeit. Zu Nacherben berufe ich den von meinem Vater, dem Fürsten [...] ausgehenden Mannesstamm nach den Grundsätzen der Primogeniturordnung des Preußischen Allgemeinen Landrechts.

Translation

In the event of my death, my eldest son shall be my sole heir, but only as prior heir for his lifetime. I appoint as my subsequent heirs the male line descending from my father Prince [name redacted], following the principles of primogeniture in the Prussian General Land Law. I stipulate as many occurrences of reversionary succession as are permitted by law.​
 
Last edited:
Kataryn said:
Of course they would have been affected. But he could have inherited, If he was borm illegitimely as child of Gustav and Carina, he could be adopted by them, thus make him their "real" child according to German law, he would be his father's firstborn and inherit all.
Click to expand...

Under the Civil Code, children have equal inheritance rights unless there is a legal instrument, such as a will, which provides for a different arrangement. It does not matter if the child is male or female, firstborn or secondborn, born to a married or unmarried mother, or adopted (because surrogacy is illegal in Germany, the intended mother of a child born from a surrogacy arrangement overseas usually must adopt the child, though in some cases courts have recognized foreign surrogacy agreements; see the sources posted earlier in the thread).

See the laws of succession here:
 
Tatiana Maria said:
It is technically true that Gustav was an heir (though not the first or only heir) to his grandfather. According to the system of reversionary succession employed by Gustav Albrecht in his last testament, each heir who is appointed through the will is an heir to the testator, not an heir to the prior heir. From the legal point of view, Richard inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht and then, after Richard's death, Gustav inherited the estate from Gustav Albrecht (instead of the "normal" course of Richard inheriting from Gustav Albrecht and Gustav inheriting from Richard).

The difference in practice is that under this arrangement, Gustav's inheritance was regulated by the laws at the time of Gustav Albrecht's legal death in 1945, rather than the laws at the time of Richard's death in 2017. This was beneficial to Gustav in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim.
Click to expand...

Somebody said:
What was exactly beneficial in defeating Ludwig-Ferdinand's claim? Wouldn't L-F had no claim at all if Richard had been the one to inherit from instead of Gustav Albrecht? Maybe Gustav's sisters would have been co-claimants in that case but I don't fully understand how L-F would still have a claim over the inheritance if Gustav was to inherit directly from his father...
Click to expand...

Ludwig-Ferdinand also attempted to disqualify Gustav on the basis of a law of 1947 (the HöfeOrdnung) which mandates that adult heirs to farms (the Berleburg estate has been registered as a farm since 1948) must be qualified to administer a farm (courts have interpreted this to mean they must have a university degree or work experience in the agricultural sector). Ludwig-Ferdinand claimed that Gustav, who had assisted his aging father with administering the estate, had mismanaged the estate and thus was unqualified to inherit it. Ludwig-Ferdinand's argument immediately failed because the 1947 law was irrelevant. Because it was a reversionary succession arrangement, only the laws of 1945 were applicable, and in there was no requirement in 1945 law that the heir must be qualified in agricultural management.

For details, see the judgment of the court.

I have wondered if there was any genuine evidence of the Berleburg estate being mismanaged by Richard and Gustav, or if it was an exaggeration by Ludwig-Ferdinand to attempt to win the estate for himself.

Incidentally, given that the 1943 will is no longer in force, the 1947 law will apply to the next succession to the Berleburg estate (unless of course the law is reformed once more). Even if Gustav intends to leave the Berleburg estate to his son, if his son is an adult at the time of Gustav's death and has no agricultural degree or experience, other family members who possess those qualifications could potentially contest his succession.
 
Tatiana Maria said:
Those ''reports" have been thoroughly debunked. The court judgments (which are free for anyone to read and have been posted here "time and time again") set out, in extensive detail, both the text of Gustav Albrecht's will and the sequence and dates of ownership of the estate: first Richard, then Gustav. (If Richard had been skipped for Gustav as you claim, why would Gustav have needed to fight to inherit the estate after his father's death in 2017?)

As you have reposted the claim, I will repost the credible sources which disprove it.


Here is the quotation from the ruling of the OLG Hamm (Higher Regional Court of Hamm) regarding Richard's certification as the first heir of his father's estate:

Am 31. 12. 1970 erteilte das AG Bad Berleburg dem ältesten Sohn des Erblassers, [...] (künftig: Vorerbe), einen Erbschein, der diesen als Vorerben des Erblassers auswies. Dieser Erbschein wurde in der Folge wegen einer unvollständigen Bezeichnung der potentiellen Nacherben berichtigt und dem Vorerben am 10. 8. 1971 ein berichtigter Erbschein erteilt. Aus der Ehe des Vorerben mit [...] Prinzessin zu Dänemark, sind insgesamt drei Kinder hervorgegangen, der am 12. 1. 1969 geborene Beteiligte zu 1), die 1975 geborene Beteiligte zu 7) sowie eine weitere im Jahr 1970 geborene Tochter.​
​
Translation​
​
On December 31, 1970, the District Court of Bad Berleburg issued the eldest son of the deceased, [name redacted] (hereafter "the prior heir") a certificate of inheritance which identified him as the prior heir to the testator. This certificate of inheritance was subsequently corrected due to an incomplete description of the potential subsequent heirs, and the prior heir was issued a corrected certificate of inheritance on August 10, 1971. From the marriage of the prior heir to [name redacted] Princess to Denmark issued a total of three children, Party 1 born on January 12, 1969, Party 7 born in 1975 and another daughter born in 1970.​

Link to the ruling.


Below is the quotation from Gustav Albrecht's will (quoted in the same judgment), stipulating that his eldest son (Richard) was his heir:

„Im Falle meines Todes soll mein ältester Sohn Alleinerbe sein, jedoch nur Vorerbe auf Lebenszeit. Zu Nacherben berufe ich den von meinem Vater, dem Fürsten [...] ausgehenden Mannesstamm nach den Grundsätzen der Primogeniturordnung des Preußischen Allgemeinen Landrechts.​
​
Translation​
​
In the event of my death, my eldest son shall be my sole heir, but only as prior heir for his lifetime. I appoint as my subsequent heirs the male line descending from my father Prince [name redacted], following the principles of primogeniture in the Prussian General Land Law. I stipulate as many occurrences of reversionary succession as are permitted by law.​
Click to expand...
Gustav Albrecht made Richard a "prior heir," which effectively made him the trustee of the possessions, not the owner. Gustav (or whoever Richard's eldest son might have been) was the heir.
 
HRHHermione said:
I think the indisputable fact is that there were legal inheritance challenges that factored into why Gustav and Carina delayed their marriage and family much longer than they would have liked. That is agreed to by everyone, yes?

Therefore, I think we can simply be happy the issue resolved and they were able to have a family anyway. I hope we get to find out the name of their daughter soon.
Click to expand...
My goodness - yes!! Why such a happy announcement has devolved into the rehashing of events is beyond me. So the most important thing as they have created a beautiful family that maybe they never thought they would be able to have and now they have a new addition to celebrate! I, for one, am extremely happy for them. I am also looking forward to finding out their daughter's name. I am also wondering if since Crown Prince Christian was godfather to their son, if maybe Princess Isabella will be asked to be godmother to this new baby? I wish them all the love and blessings!!
 
kalnel said:
Gustav Albrecht made Richard a "prior heir," which effectively made him the trustee of the possessions, not the owner. Gustav (or whoever Richard's eldest son might have been) was the heir.
Click to expand...

If that is all you meant to convey in your prior comment, then I apologize for responding in the way I did.

I understand how you may have reached that conclusion, but I am afraid it is incorrect. The system of reversionary succession is described in the Civil Code (which has an English translation), but I will try to summarize.

Section 2100 of the Civil Code states: "The testator may appoint an heir in such a way that the person only becomes an heir after another heir has first been heir (provisional heir)." In effect, the writer of a will (in this case, Gustav Albrecht) is permitted to decree that multiple people (in this case, an infinite number of people) will inherit his estate, but only one heir at a time.

To reiterate, Gustav Albrecht's will stated in part:


Im Falle meines Todes soll mein ältester Sohn Alleinerbe sein, jedoch nur Vorerbe auf Lebenszeit. Zu Nacherben berufe ich den von meinem Vater, dem Fürsten [...] ausgehenden Mannesstamm nach den Grundsätzen der Primogeniturordnung des Preußischen Allgemeinen Landrechts. Ich bestimme so viel Nacherbfälle, als nach dem Gesetz jeweils möglich sind. Bei dem gegenwärtigen Familienstand würden daher zu Nacherben in folgender Reichenfolge berufen sein: die männlichen Nachkommen meines Sohnes pp, mein Sohn pp und seine männlichen Nachkommen; mein Bruder pp und seine männlichen Nachkommen; zuletzt mein Bruder pp und seine männlichen Nachkommen.

Translation

In the event of my death, my eldest son shall be my sole heir, but only as prior heir for his lifetime. I appoint as my subsequent heirs the male line descending from my father Prince [Richard], following the principles of primogeniture in the Prussian General Land Law. I stipulate as many occurrences of subsequent succession as are permitted by law. With the family in its present condition, those appointed as subsequent heirs in the following order of succession would therefore be: the male descendants of my son [Richard], my son [Robin] and his male descendants, my brother [Christian Heinrich] and his male descendants, and finally my brother [Ludwig Ferdinand] and his male descendants.​

The sentence in bold means that if the law had permitted Gustav Albrecht's will to remain in force for eternity, then:
Upon the death of Gustav Albrecht, his eldest son Richard would become the sole heir of Gustav Albrecht's estate for his lifetime. (This did occur in reality.)
Upon the death of Richard, Richard's eldest son Gustav would become the sole heir of Gustav Albrecht's estate for his lifetime.
Upon the death of Gustav, his hypothetical eldest son from a noble wife would become the sole heir of Gustav Albrecht's estate for his lifetime.
And so on and so forth.

In other words, according to the rules set out in Gustav Albrecht's will, Richard would possess the estate for his lifetime, but he could not dispose of it in his own will and would be obligated to preserve it for Gustav to inherit after him. But the same would apply to Gustav – Gustav would possess the estate for his lifetime, but he would not be permitted to dispose of it in his own will and would be obligated to preserve it for his eldest son to inherit after him.

If you prefer to label this arrangement as being a "trustee", then Gustav would also be a "trustee" under the terms of his grandfather's will.

The reason Gustav is now free to leave the estate to whomever he likes is not because his grandfather Gustav Albrecht wanted it that way – if it were up to Gustav Albrecht's will, every heir to his estate would have remained a mere "trustee" in your words. It is only because the Civil Code does not allow a will to remain in force for eternity.


Again, these laws and testamentary clauses and the process of applying them to the Berleburg estate are described at length in the court judgments, which also transcribe Gustav Albrecht's will.

The judgment of the Regional Court of Appeals in Hamm:
 
As the article points out she may have been named after Mafalda of Savoyen, who was daughter of Victor Emanuel III of Italy. She died in Buchenwald in 1944 after having been arrested. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Princess_Mafalda_of_Savoy.jpg
en.wikipedia.org

Princess Mafalda of Savoy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Before that she married and had four children with Philipp of Hessen-Kassel, who also ended up being arrested, despite being a Nazi.
One of their children, Moritz, married Tatiana of Berleburg, who was faster to Gustav.

Mafalda is also the name of a popular Argentinian cartoon figure. https://www.liberedivivere.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Mafalda1.jpg
 
What do you mean by 'who was faster to Gustav'? If I am not mistaken Princess Tatiana of Berleburg is Gustav's aunt. Her eldest daughter is also called Mafalda - which must have been after her paternal grandmother. So, as Mafalda's namesake, Gustav's cousin, princess Mafalda of Hesse, might become his daughter's godmother...
 
Somebody said:
If I am not mistaken Princess Tatiana of Berleburg is Gustav's aunt. Her eldest daughter is also called Mafalda - which must have been after her paternal grandmother. So, as Mafalda's namesake, Gustav's cousin, princess Mafalda of Hesse, might become his daughter's godmother...
Click to expand...

Though according to the couple's spokesman's "confirmation" to Billed-Bladet, it seems they chose the name simply because they liked it (in contrast to their son, who they announced was named after his grandfather). The spokesman apparently also stated that the girl had the title of princess (which is a given as it is incorporated into the family's surname).

As an aside, Tatjana of Hesse was also one of the many family members identified as parties in the Gustav v. Ludwig-Ferdinand succession dispute in the court rulings (the names are redacted from the rulings, but they include sufficient information to identify most of the family members).
 
Happy 1st birthday to little Prince Gustav Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg🌻
 
Happy 1st birthday to little Prince Gustav Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg!
 
I've completely missed that the name of the little Princess has been revealed.

I love the name Mafalda! Hadn't seen that coming at all (was a bit worried she'd get a bit of a clunky honour-name like her brother). I wish we knew if she and her brother had any other names that G&C just haven't announced.
 
I read on another Board that Mafalda will be baptized on Saturday? Can anyone confirm this? Any idea as to godparents?
 
Mafalda Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg will be baptized on August 31st 2024.
The ceremony will take place in the late morning. It will be private.
Afterwards there will be an official photoshooting. The godparents will be known (to us) at the photoshooting

www.siegener-zeitung.de

Feierlicher Anlass auf Schloss Berleburg: Prinzessin Mafalda wird getauft

Gustav Prinz und Carina Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg feiern mit geladenen Gästen die Taufe ihres zweiten Kindes. Die Bad Berleburger Familie ist Teil des dänischen Königshauses. Das ist bislang über die Veranstaltung bekannt.
www.siegener-zeitung.de www.siegener-zeitung.de
For the article you need a +subscription
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg Estate and Family Issues
Replies
2
Views
677
Tatiana Maria
T
Marengo
Princely Houses of Sayn-Wittgenstein 2: 2023 -
Replies
12
Views
4K
iceflower
iceflower
An Ard Ri
  • Sticky
King Felipe, Queen Letizia and Family, General News, Part 3
Replies
6
Views
2K
Blog Real
Blog Real
Marengo
  • Sticky
King Felipe's Current Events 6, June 2024-
2 3
Replies
84
Views
7K
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
  • Sticky
King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia's Current Events 5: June 2024 -
Replies
18
Views
4K
Toledo
Toledo

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom