Press Reports about Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill: January 2011 - October 2012

[Artemisia]

When I became an American citizen my application paperwork said I would have to relinquish any titles I had.

That is in accordance with Section 1448 of the United States Constition which requires aliens applying for citizenship to renounce of titles of nobility:
"In case the person petitioning for naturalization has borne any hereditary title, or has been of any of the orders of nobility in any foreign state, the petitioner shall ... make ... an express renunciation of such title or order of nobility, and such renunciation shall be recorded in the court as part of the proceedings."

 

[NGalitzine]

Wouldn't Chris have to relinquish his U.S. citizenship to take a title? I know the American actress Jamie Lee Curtis' husband, Christopher Guest, is a British baron so she is a baroness by marriage but not in her own right. I know that the U.S. Constitution prevents members of the government from accepting titles, but I don't know what the law is regarding regular citizens.

But Chris wouldnt be getting a title of his own. By courtesy he would become duke of Madeleines duchy without the HRH, at least that is what what announced for Jonas. Chris would be in the same situation as Jamie Lee.

 

[NGalitzine]

According to Titles of Nobility Amendment proposed in 1810 (the so-called missing 13th Amendment), "If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain, any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them."
It should be noted, however, that the validity of this amendment's ratification is doubted and has not been upheld by any court within the United States.

A provision in Article 1, Section 9, Clause 8 of the US Constitution - Title of Nobility Clause - states: "No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state."

Presumably they exempt Papal titles from this since Rose Kenendy was created a Papal Countess and she certainly never gave up her citizenship.

 

[Artemisia]

Presumably they exempt Papal titles from this since Rose Kenendy was created a Papal Countess and she certainly never gave up her citizenship.

Well, as I said the Titles of Nobility Amendment was never fully ratified. As for the Title of Nobility Clause, it only deals with people holding elective office. In addition, a permission of the Congress might have been obtained.

In essence, I don't see any law in the United States Constitution that would prohibit Chris from becoming a Prince of Sweden, if the King should feel the need to grant him that title. Besides, I would imagine a permission from the Congress would have been extremely easy to obtain.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well, as I said the Titles of Nobility Amendment was never fully ratified. As for the Title of Nobility Clause, it only deals with people holding elective office. In addition, a permission of the Congress might have been obtained.

In essence, I don't see any law in the United States Constitution that would prohibit Chris from becoming a Prince of Sweden, if the King should feel the need to grant him that title. Besides, I would imagine a permission from the Congress would have been extremely easy to obtain.

I think the King would do with Chris exactly what he announced would be done with Jonas which was to follow the Spanish example. Chris becomes duke of her duchy but does not become a prince or an HRH.

 

[Artemisia]

I think the King would do with Chris exactly what he announced would be done with Jonas which was to follow the Spanish example. Chris becomes duke of her duchy but does not become a prince or an HRH.

That is the most likely course of action.
However, should he wish to honour Madeleine's husband in such way, there doesn't appear to be a legal obstacle for that (at least, in the US constitution).

 

[Winnie]

Presumably they exempt Papal titles from this since Rose Kenendy was created a Papal Countess and she certainly never gave up her citizenship.

That was never recognized by the United States Government.

 

[Meraude]

I think the King would do with Chris exactly what he announced would be done with Jonas which was to follow the Spanish example. Chris becomes duke of her duchy but does not become a prince or an HRH.

Or if Chris prefers it, not giving him a title at all, while Madeleine keeps hers, as it has been the case with the husbands of Anne, Princess Royal.

 

[Baroness of Books]

That's probably the most likely scenario such as you mentioned with Princess Anne's husbands, as well as Ari Behn with Princess Marthe Louise of Norway, among others. That's if indeed they're headed to the altar!

 

[CrownPrincess5]

I don't understand why Chris or whomever Madeleine marries, should be given a title. Husbands of princesses usually don't receive one. I must say, it seems to me that Chris could care less if he receives a title or not.

 

[Meraude]

as well as Ari Behn with Princess Marthe Louise of Norway, among others.

As there are no other titles in Norway except royal ones, a title were no option for him.

I don't understand why Chris or whomever Madeleine marries, should be given a title. Husbands of princesses usually don't receive one.

It probably depends on if the princess is in line in the succession or not, Madeleine is and so are the Spanish princesses Elena and Christina and their husband's got courtesy titles from king Juan Carlos, as well as the husband's of British princesses before Anne who married untitled men, for example Margaret.

 

[tihkon2]

I don't understand why Chris or whomever Madeleine marries, should be given a title. Husbands of princesses usually don't receive one. I must say, it seems to me that Chris could care less if he receives a title or not.

The basic reason nowdays is because Sweden has equal primogeniture (succession to throne is by birth order regardless of sex) and if for example, Prince Carl Philip's future wife automatically gets a title by marrying him, then Maddy's future husband darn well better get one too. You see how absolutely unfair that would be if one got a title and the other didn't? Back in the old days that kind of unequal thing was normal, in particular because in the past a Princess would almost always marry a man with his own equal or even better title. So no one needed to think about giving a title to her husband.

I think that if Madde gets married it'll be the Duke title for her husband most likely.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I don't understand why Chris or whomever Madeleine marries, should be given a title. Husbands of princesses usually don't receive one. I must say, it seems to me that Chris could care less if he receives a title or not.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Me too. Moreover, I dont see Chris wanting to do any duties for Sweden on his own (eg like the husbands of the Spanish Infantas) but to continue with his life abroad.

I could have easily seen Jonas doing engagements of his own in case he would have married Madeleine.

I still dont think that he is a good choice for Madeleine but I have to say I warmed to his attitude at the wedding in comparison to his female walker at the event.

 

[Meraude]

That's what I was thinking.

Why should it bring more prestige for the spouse to marry a male royal than marrying a female royal if both the male and the female royal have the same rights when it comes to be in line for the succession? If a male royal can elevate his spouse to the same rank as he has, then it shouldn't matter if the spouse was male or female, thus if prince X marries mr Y, then mr Y would become prince Y after the marriage.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

royal and same rights does not go together. daniel will not be king consort but remain a prince once victoria reigns while his mother in law is queen consort.

i think it depends on country & character of the individual what happens. the trend is towards less titles and concentration of core royal family, of which eg Madeleine is not part anymore.


JUST TO CLARIFY MY POST
The second part is only about a possible consort, not about Madeleine herself. Of course she'll remain who she is.

 

[LadyFinn]

Johan T Lindwall of Expressen
Then comes the next engagement
That's why Madeleine makes it before her brother
http://www.expressen.se/ImageHandle...umn&guid=33470b53-dc79-4df5-a835-a74c8cada91a

And MTV3 quotes the article, nothing so special in it:
The king and the queen have had difficulties to accept Sofia because of her past, but Chris got their acceptance rather quickly, when the king and the queen saw how happy Madeleine is with him.
Sten Hedman thinks that both couples will get engaged in a year. He thinks also, that their weddings aren't as big as Victoria's (well, even I know that...). Hedman claims that they get married in some small country church, like in Öland.
Lindwall thinks that Madeleine will get engaged before Carl Philip.
Madeleinella ja Sofialla kamppailu kihlajaispäivästä? - MTV3.fi

 

[Baroness of Books]

As there are no other titles in Norway except royal ones, a title were no option for him.

I didn't realize that; thank you for the clarification, but I'm sure there are spouses of royal females who do not carry the male form of the title in other countries. I think if Madeleine and Chris do marry, there's no necessity for him to carry a title especially if he and Madeleine do relocate to America and they continue with their respective careers. Whether that's a good decision for Madeleine is her choice because I don't how it would affect her own title. Marrying a fellow Swede would have been a different situation if she remained in Sweden and he was granted a title by marriage as opposed to moving permanently to another country away from her own and her family and duties. Just my perspective.

 

[Boris]

There seems to be a general misconception of sorts that it would affect Princess Madeleine's title if she married a foreign commoner.
It wouldn't.
It doesn't matter either if a future husband would decide against getting titled by marriage himself.
Princess Madeleine is a Princess of Sweden by birth and that's what she remains, unless she herself decides to renounce her titles.

The matter of apanage / state money is a different one than that of styling; Princess Madeleine herself has stated that she receives state money only to cover the expenses of her strictly royal duties in Sweden and abroad, but of course we have no (better) source to either confirm or question this statement.

 

[Baroness of Books]

Thanks, Boris. So it wouldn't be a case of Madeleine getting "demoted" to HH instead of HRH as what occurred with Marthe Louise in Norway? I realize that monarchies do differ among the countries with their policies and procedures.

 

[DukeOfAster]

I don't understand why Chris or whomever Madeleine marries, should be given a title. Husbands of princesses usually don't receive one. I must say, it seems to me that Chris could care less if he receives a title or not.

Not sure if this is stated later or not but you can never have more than one post of a good thing. In Sweden the royal child is given a title at birth. It is announced with a day or two of the child's birth. So when he or she marries their spouse gets that title as well. Something neat I find is that the tile can not be put back into use until the main holder and the holder spouse are deceased. So when the Duchess of ostergaland becomes Queen she will still be a Duchess and it will not go back into use until her husband had passed as well. I like that way of doing it. Each child gets their on title at birth so the do not go to the child the child will get their own. I hope I helped.

 

[Boris]

Thanks, Boris. So it wouldn't be a case of Madeleine getting "demoted" to HH instead of HRH as what occurred with Marthe Louise in Norway? I realize that monarchies do differ among the countries with their policies and procedures.

In Norway, a complete process of 'downsizing' the royal family has begun - HRH Princess Ingrid's brother was also only styled HH.
Of course it remains to be seen if the same will apply to other children of the Swedish CP couple, but my assessment is that King Carl Gustaf is not as inclined to make these steps as King Harald, and certainly not retro-actively, unless Princess Madeleine asks for it herself, which I don't see happening.

 

[Meraude]

royal and same rights does not go together.

i think it depends on country & character of the individual what happens. the trend is towards less titles and concentration of core royal family, of which eg Madeleine is not part anymore.

For me it doesn't really matter whether the spouse of Madeleine gets a title or not, the important thing for me is that the spouse of Madeleine and the spouse of Carl Philip is treated in the same manner regarding titles, as the Swedish parliament have decided that Sweden have equal primogeniture. If the king choses to handle the matter with spousal titles differently for the spouse of a male vs the spouse of a female child, it can be interpreted that he doesn't like the idea of equal primogeniture and that he consideres a male child is worth more when it comes to royalty.

Regardless if people think that royals and equal rights don't go together, the royals are a part of the country they live in, and are affected by political decisions that are made by the parliament in their country. Equal rights matter in Sweden, and the same rules should apply to the status of a royal spouse whether they are marrying a male or a female royal.

 

[Boris]

For me it doesn't really matter whether the spouse of Madeleine gets a title or not, the important thing for me is that the spouse of Madeleine and the spouse of Carl Philip is treated in the same manner regarding titles, as the Swedish parliament have decided that Sweden have equal primogeniture. If the king choses to handle the matter with spousal titles differently for the spouse of a male vs the spouse of a female child, it can be interpreted that he doesn't like the idea of equal primogeniture and that he consideres a male child is worth more when it comes to royalty.

Regardless if people think that royals and equal rights don't go together, the royals are a part of the country they live in, and are affected by political decisions that are made by the parliament in their country. Equal rights matter in Sweden, and the same rules should apply to the status of a royal spouse whether they are marrying a male or a female royal.

I absolutely agree.
It would be painful to watch - as well as out of touch with his own country - if the King treated his son and his youngest daughter (as well as their partners) in any way less than equal when it comes to their status and titles.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I absolutely agree.
It would be painful to watch - as well as out of touch with his own country - if the King treated his son and his youngest daughter (as well as their partners) in any way less than equal when it comes to their status and titles.

It doesnt only depend on what the King offers but on what is taken. I guess its safe to assume that Sofia wants the title and if she does get it, people would expect her to work for Sweden.

I could imagine that Chris would say "no thank you" and be able to get on with his normal life since he is not a prince hence not expected to represent or work for Sweden, especially a good solution should they decided to stay in the US.

Sorry if this has been asked before but what titles would any children produced by CP or Madeleine get? I'd find it ridiculous if they became HRHs.

 

[JessRulz]

One would assume that Carl Philip's children, if born into an approved marriage, would be HRH Prince/ss of Sweden. Just following past precedence, and the fact that titles descend through the male line. (I would also assume that CP's wife would become HRH Princess XX of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland upon marriage).

Madeleine's children I would expect not to be titled at all, similar to other children born to princesses who married commoners. I would also expect that the King would offer Madeleine's husband the title of Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland, in accordance with the announcement made during her engagement to Jonas. It would then be up to said husband (ie. Chris O'Neill) to accept or decline.

 

[tihkon2]

Madeleine's children I would expect not to be titled at all, similar to other children born to princesses who married commoners.

One might expect that to be the case in the past or in other countries, but somehow I don't know if it will in fact be the case there. I think we're going to see a lot of questions arise in Sweden if the spouses and children of both CP and Madde are not treated equally if they do in fact end up living in Sweden, since gender does not determine the place in the order of succession any longer.

I can only see a justification being made for Madde's husband not being treated equally to CP's wife if Madde and family decide to live abroad or to be "private citizens".

 

[Boris]

JessRulz, what you describe above is exactly the worst case scenario if same rules do NOT apply to the status of a royal spouse whether they are marrying a male or a female royal, but are treated differently, with the male and his partner given all the privileges and the female and her partner being deprived of them.
As you correctly say, this is a past preference, as well as titles descending through the male line is a thing of the past in Sweden. It would inevitably and justifiably be seen as a step back and as a very unpopular kind of sexism.

If things turned out to be handled the unfair way you describe instead of treating the younger siblings of the Crown Princess equally, it would be a very bad move indeed.

 

[Meraude]

One would assume that Carl Philip's children, if born into an approved marriage, would be HRH Prince/ss of Sweden.

Madeleine's children I would expect not to be titled at all, similar to other children born to princesses who married commoners.

If the children of Carl Philip and Madeleine would be treated differently when it comes to titles it could very well be the first step towards an abolishment of the monarchy in Sweden, as the monarchy is at its lowest popularity level at the moment, regardless of the popularity of Victoria and her family. The future children of Madeleine and the future children of Carl Philip will have the same rights when it comes to being in line to the throne.

As for the children born to princesses who married commoners to be untitled, I prefer that the SRF would follow the example of the Netherlands rather than Spain, as the children of princess Margriet have the title prince X of Orange-Nassau. Make the children of both Carl Philip and Madeleine prince/ss X (of) Bernadotte instead of prince/ss X of Sweden, and perhaps a dukal title too. The title prince X Bernadotte have already been used in the SRF, prince Oscar Bernadotte, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Oscar_Bernadotte , was the father of two of king Carl Gustaf's godparents.

 

[JessRulz]

Do you know if there was any specifications regarding titles with the 1980 changes Boris?

I agree that the situation I posted would be unfair, but somehow, that is how I see it occurring in Sweden (what with Carl Gustaf having previously stated that he wished the succession changes not to be retroactive and all). Unless the King undergoes a large change of mind/heart before CP and Madeleine get married.

Perhaps he will only make CP's wife Duchess of Värmland, in a similar manner to Madeleine's husband. Then the spouses would be equal, but then there would be a question of their children - titled or untitled? What is the likelihood that the King would simply give his grandchild Duchies of their own, instead of them being Prince and Princess? Then Madeleine's children could be included as well, as the titles would be distributed at the King's discretion.

As for the children born to princesses who married commoners to be untitled, I prefer that the SRF follows the example of the Netherlands rather than Spain, as the children of princess Margriet have the title prince X of Orange-Nassau. Make the children of both Carl Philip and Madeleine prince/ss X (of) Bernadotte instead of prince/ss X of Sweden.

That's actually an interesting idea Meraude. Is the King able to give titles apart from Duchies? I know that the Counts of Wisborg were given the title by the Grand Duke/Duchess of Luxembourg.