Non-British Styles and Titles

[Super Baroness]

I learned early on through this forum that Diana, Princess of Wales was incorrectly called “Princess Diana” during and after her marriage, as she never was a princess in her own right. (But was The Princess of Wales)



But now I have a question about the correct titles of princesses today.
Letizia of Spain is The Princess of Asturias, so isn’t it incorrect to call her “Princess Letizia,” like I have seen often? I know different countries have varying ways of titling, but still, I am curious. I guess in the same way, Felipe is The Prince of Asturias, so is it wrong to call him “Prince Felipe”? I read somewhere that the Spanish heir to the throne is the only one to be titled “Prince” before their name (rather than Infante), but I’m not sure how accurate that is.


Similarly, what about the princess consorts of Monaco? They become “The Princess of Monaco”, but I’ve always heard “Princess Grace” and soon-to-be “Princess Charlene.” Do these women really become princesses in their own right, or is it just habit to put the word “princess” in front of someone’s name if it is in their official title?

 

[Furienna]

A Duke in Britain is a noble but only the Duke is noble in his family - not his wife or children - so the Duke of Hogwarts is noble but the Duchess of Hogwarts is not noble (but is an aristocrat).

That's funny, because I always thought, that "noble" and "aristocrat" was the same thing.

But now I have a question about the correct titles of princesses today...

It sure is different in different countries. Here in Sweden, a prince's wife is correctly titled "princess", even if she didn't have a title in her own right. For example, our king's mother was known as Princess Sibylla.

 

[AnaC]

But now I have a question about the correct titles of princesses today...

The ways of titling in the UK have nothing to do with the titles in Spain. Felipe as you said is the only named Prince Felipe in the SRF, her sisters are Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina, if he had had any brothers they would have been Infantes. Felipe's main title is the Prince of Asturias but it's correct to call him Prince Felipe. Letizia shares her husband's titles by law and the Spanish Royal Household allowed last year to name a center "Princess Letizia". Traditionally, the women marrying Spanish Infantes(the last three monarchs before Juan Carlos married already being Queen/King ) were called Infanta First Name, nothing like Princess Michael of Kent in Spain, so I guess princess Letizia is correct.

Since 1978, in Spain an infante(male or female) can't share his or her titles with his/her spouse(unlike a British prince, a princess wouldn't share her title). The Prince or Princess of Asturias has always shared his/her title with his/her spouse regardless of their genre. As you can see completely different from the UK

I don't know about Monaco but my theory is that as they are the Sovereign's wives they are called Princess First Name like the Queens consorts are called Queen First Name.

 

[Super Baroness]

Thanks for your replies! What you said is basically what I believed. The UK just does things more formally I guess (you have a title and that's what you are called) - other countries like Spain seem to have more "wiggle room"

That's interesting though that a Princess of Asturias (in their own right, like Leonor potentially in the future) will share their title with their husband. I think that's how things should be done - partners (at least the heirs) should be able to share their titles no matter the gender. Or else do like the Netherlands with The Prince of Orange and Princess Maxima.

 

[branchg]

Similarly, what about the princess consorts of Monaco? They become “The Princess of Monaco”, but I’ve always heard “Princess Grace” and soon-to-be “Princess Charlene.” Do these women really become princesses in their own right, or is it just habit to put the word “princess” in front of someone’s name if it is in their official title?

In Monaco, the wife of a reigning Prince is "Princesse de Monaco", not "Princess X". In Grace's case, she was "Grace, Princesse de Monaco" upon marriage to Rainier. After the birth of Prince Albert, Rainier issued a decree stating Grace was elevated to a Princesse de Monaco in her own right. At that point, she was officially "HSH Princess Grace de Monaco".

 

[Snowball]

Royal Titles

Hello fellow royal watchers!

Greetings from Los Angeles~

I am new to the forum and need to ask a some question about titles~

I have Googled and Googled this and just can find the answers~

What is the difference between a duke/ess, count/ess, earl and down the line~

Why is Price Charles now a duke?

Why are Prince Edward and Princess Sophie a count/ess and not a duke/ess?

Thank you~

Snowball

 

[Iluvbertie]

The difference between a Duke and an Earl is one of degree.

Charles has been a Duke since the early hours of the 6th February, 1952 when he automatically became the Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay as the eldest son and heir apparent of the monarch.

William has recently be made a Duke - by Letters Patent - the official way that people get titles - because that is the traditional thing that happens to males in close line to the throne on or before their wedding days. In time it is expected that Harry will also be made a Duke.

Why Edward is an Earl - simple - that was what he and the Queen decided to do in 1999 - with the understanding that when the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh have both died and assuming that Charles becomes King then the Duke of Edinburgh title will be recreated for Edward.

 

[Nice Nofret]

The Prince Charles is The Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cornwall etc...

The wife of the Prince Edward, the Earl of Wessex, is Sophie, the Countess of Wessex - she ist NOT a Princess

Prince William is since his Weddingday The Duke of Cambridge (gift of the Queen).

"THE" is the actual Titelholer : "THE" befor "Prince" = this Person is a son / daughter of a Queen/King

Thats why its only "Prince William" but "the Prince Edward"

 

[Iluvbertie]

Sophie - as the wife of a Prince is a Princess but she isn't Princess Sophie because in Britain only the princesses born as such are Princess 'own name'. The others are Princess husband's name - like Princess Michael of Kent. As Edward has another title Sophie uses the feminine form of that title but if Edward hadn't been given a title on his wedding day she would known as The Princess Edward - as the wife of The Prince Edward (not to be confused with that other Prince Edward aka The Duke of Kent.

 

[Nice Nofret]

Well yes, that's what I meant -- not Princess in her own right

 

[pgm1952]

There must be a great difference between a Grand Duke/Duchess in Luxemburg and the grand dukes and grand duchesses from Russia (in the Imperial past and present times), right?

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

There must be a great difference between a Grand Duke/Duchess in Luxemburg and the grand dukes and grand duchesses from Russia (in the Imperial past and present times), right?

Warren will probably move this, but yes there is a difference between a reigning Grand Duke (i.e. of Luxembourg) and a Grand Duke of Russia, which is basically no more than a princely courtesy title.

The actual title in Russian is Velikiy Knjaz, and it is usually translated to "Grand Duke" in English.. but more accurately should be translated as "Grand Prince".

 

[Kataryn]

There must be a great difference between a Grand Duke/Duchess in Luxemburg and the grand dukes and grand duchesses from Russia (in the Imperial past and present times), right?

The German language makes that difference: the Grand Duke of Luxembourg is the "Großherzog", while the Russian princes were "Großfürsten" - Grand Princes. The German language has two different terms for "prince" - one is "Fürst" which signals the position of head of the family or souverain of his country (as in the Fürst von Monaco) and "Prinz" which is the title for younger brothers or the sons of the Head of the family. Not all formerly reigning Houses use a special title for the Head of the House. Bavaria does it, the Head is The Duke of Bavaria while all other males are either Prince of Bavaria (Royal Branch) or Duke in Bavaria (younger Branch). The Prussians only use "Prince", the Austrians "Archduke", the Wuerttembergs all use "duke" instead of "prince" so it's up to the family in a way. But then German modern name law is quite accommodating in that respect.

 

[xolfxo]

marry into royalty

what are some of the guidelines regarding marrying into royalty in countries like Luxembourg Lichtenstein, Sweden, Denmark etc.
if one marries a princess what would his title be does he really get to pass it down or is it just honorary
one example would be princess Alexandra of Luxembourg
or possibly princess Madeline of Sweden
Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg - Photos | Facebook!
/album.php?id=185077481506874&aid=6259…
Any examples of this

 

[yvr girl]

I don' t think anyone automatically gains a title by marrying a princess. Some are granted titles - ie Crown Princess Victoria's husband. Nowadays, most don't get a title. Princess Anne's first husband was offered a title, but it was declined. I think the last such title granted was to Tony Armstrong-Jones. This title wasn't granted upon marriage, but before their first child was born.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Whether or not a man receives a title by marrying into a Royal House, depends upon the custom of the family and the country they represent.

In the case of Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden, her husband Daniel was made a prince of the Royal House.. and together they were made Duke and Duchess of Västergötland. Prince Daniel was granted his princely title because he will one day be the father of the heir to the throne.

In Norway, men do not receive a title upon marriage to a princess.. and the princesses themselves are HH and not HRH. In their family, only the immediate line of succession is granted HRH status.. which includes the sovereign and his spouse, the heir and his spouse, and the second in line (currently HRH Princess Ingrid Alexandra). Ingrid's younger brother is HH Prince Sverre Magnus - and the daughter and sisters of the king are HH Princesses, but their husbands and children do not have titles.

In the UK and the House of Windsor, it has been a tradition to at least ask whether a title is wanted for the daughters of the sovereign.. as was done with Princess Anne's first marriage, and was done with Princess Margaret's marriage. Whether it is accepted is up to the couple.

No title is given to a man who marries into the German houses, that I know of.

And in Japan the Imperial Family law states that a princess born of their house must give up her title upon marriage, as well as relinquish her birth position, her membership in the Imperial Family and any allowance she was given. From the time of marriage, a former Imperial princess must take her husband's name - which is exactly what happened in 2005 when the Emperor's only daughter HIH The Princess Nori became plain Mrs. Kuroda Sayako.

These, of course, are just a few examples.. but it goes to show that it really depends on which family you marry into.

 

[Muhler]

what are some of the guidelines regarding marrying into royalty in countries like Luxembourg Lichtenstein, Sweden, Denmark etc.
if one marries a princess what would his title be does he really get to pass it down or is it just honorary
one example would be princess Alexandra of Luxembourg
or possibly princess Madeline of Sweden
Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg - Photos | Facebook!
/album.php?id=185077481506874&aid=6259…
Any examples of this

In Denmark, that's for the Monarch to decide.
As a very general and contemporary rule: If you marry a Danish Prince who is son or brother of the monach, you can expect to become Princess of Denmark.
However if the Monarch does not approve of you, your prince can risk being "demoted" and made a count instead, in which case you get the title of Countess of Something.
You can't be sure that the title of princess will be passed on to your children. That is also up to the Monarch.
And when it comes to your grandchildren it's much more likely they will be made counts instead. - Simply to avoid having too many princes and princesses around.
(There are at present six Princes in DK, not counting the Prince Consort and the Crown Prince, and four Princesses, not counting the Crown Princess. And that I think is about the tolerable limit).

Only if you marry the Crown Prince or the oldest child of the Crown Prince can you be sure of getting the title of Crown Princess/Princess of Denmark.

ADDED: Prince/ss of Denmark, means you are not in line of succession. Prince/ss to means you are in line of succession.
There is no such thing as being the 378th in line for the Danish throne. Unless you are an aknowledged heir, i.e. prince/ss to Denmark, you can claim your right for the throne until your head turns blue, it doesn't matter.

 

[American Dane]

Whether or not a man receives a title by marrying into a Royal House, depends upon the custom of the family and the country they represent.

In the case of Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden, her husband Daniel was made a prince of the Royal House.. and together they were made Duke and Duchess of Västergötland. Prince Daniel was granted his princely title because he will one day be the father of the heir to the throne.

In Norway, men do not receive a title upon marriage to a princess.. and the princesses themselves are HH and not HRH. In their family, only the immediate line of succession is granted HRH status.. which includes the sovereign and his spouse, the heir and his spouse, and the second in line (currently HRH Princess Ingrid Alexandra). Ingrid's younger brother is HH Prince Sverre Magnus - and the daughter and sisters of the king are HH Princesses, but their husbands and children do not have titles.

These, of course, are just a few examples.. but it goes to show that it really depends on which family you marry into.

Just a few notes:

Victoria was already Duchess of Västergötland at the time if her marriage. She was given the title when she was made heir to the throne in 1980.

Princess Marie-Louise of Norway was HRH until she gave it up, and then was given HH for use in certain countries, but is legally just Princess Marie-Louise of Norway with no style.

 

[Kataryn]

I have often wondered why I have no problem with a woman called Princess Michael of Kent or The Empress Frederick or even Lady Colin Campbell (to name some examples) but the idea that Prince Daniel would be named Prince Victoria of Sweden gives me giggles... Any ideas?

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

I have often wondered why I have no problem with a woman called Princess Michael of Kent or The Empress Frederick or even Lady Colin Campbell (to name some examples) but the idea that Prince Daniel would be named Prince Victoria of Sweden gives me giggles... Any ideas?

Almost in all of the countries with monarchy nowadays women get the equal rank of their husbang e.g. Crownprinncess Mette-Marit, Mary et cetera. Which is IMHO quiet normal, however only in Englang (nowadays) that is not the case.
About Daniel: I think it's the same reason why Prince Henrik or Prince Claus is/was not given the title of the King.

 

[Meraude]

what are some of the guidelines regarding marrying into royalty in countries like Luxembourg Lichtenstein, Sweden, Denmark etc.
if one marries a princess what would his title be does he really get to pass it down or is it just honorary
or possibly princess Madeline of Sweden
Any examples of this

The husband of princess Madeleine would get her ducal title, Mr. X X, Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. Madeleine got her title at birth, as she was heiress to the trone. I don't think that her title will be passed on to her children or if her children will get their own title or not, as it's not been a tradition in the SRF that children inherit the (honorary) ducal titles their fathers' have had. Every royal prince (and now also princess) have got their own title.

... Prince Daniel would be named Prince Victoria of Sweden gives me giggles...

Sweden have never had the tradition that a female is titled with her husbands' name, neither commoner nor royal, so that the idea of a Prince Victoria, nor a Princess Carl Philip doesn't exist here. No matter what status the future wife of prince Carl Philip have before her marriage, she will become HRH princess (her own name) of Sweden.

 

[Keystone]

'Duke of York' et al a life peerage title?

A quick question....


In Spain, on their weddings the Infantas Dona Elena and Dona Cristina were created the Duchess of Lugo and Duchess of Parma de Mallorca respectively. From what I understand, these are titles 'in name', and are not transmitted to their heirs. (If I am wrong please corret me From what I understand this is more or less simular to England's life peerage title, such as the title 'Prince of Wales' is a title for the male heir appearent for England.

My question is then... when the Duke of York passes, would his eldest daughter Princess Beatrice become Duchess of York as her father's eldest? And if not, why not and what exactly governs this aspect. Is the title Duke of York more or less a "life peerage" title for the second son of the monarch?

Just curious is all.


D.

 

[Meraude]

Most British titles are only inherited by male heirs, if the Duke of York had a son his title would be inherited by his son, as is the case with the titles of the present royal Dukes of Kent and Gloucester. But Beatrice will not inherit the title as she is female.

 

[Diarist]

Yes, Meraude, as I understand it, the title of Duke of York will presumably revert to the Crown.

Meraude is quite right about most British titles only being inherited by male heirs; succession is regulated on the grant of the Peerage and for us 'Royal watchers'the most interesting example of where the title can descend through females is the case of the Earldom granted to Lord Mountbatten. Lord Mountbatten had no son, only two daughters, but having been granted an Earldom wished this to descend through his family. [Biographers in the past have always claimed that Lord Mountbatten was a hideous snob!!]

Lord Mountbatten was first created Viscount Mounbatten of Burma of Romsey on 23 August 1946 and subsequently Earl Mountbatten of Burma on 28 October 1947 ' with remainder [i.e. power to inherit the title] to the heirs male of his body and in default of such issue to his elder daughter and the heirs male of her body, and to every other daughter sucessively in order of seniority of age and priority of birth, and to the heirs male of their bodies'


Hope this is of interest

Alex

 

[Keystone]

It does help. I was exploring wiki more too and it seems that Scottish peeresses do inheirt their title in absence of male issue, whereas the English system there is something called abyence. I understand abyence, but wonder why that system developed. It is curious. Also, it seems in Spain the king there reformed succession for noble titles to absolute cognatic .. meaning firstborn regardless of gender... or successsion by distribution with the highest ranking title inherited by the eldest regardless of gender. I wonder if the English system would adopt something simular to the Spanish?

 

[cmkrcwi]

The Duke of Fife is another example. He inherited the title from his aunt HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught who became Duchess of Fife (although she did not use it after marriage) following the death of her father, the 1st Duke of Fife who was married to Louise (Princess Royal), the eldest daughter of Edward VII.

Like Lord Mountbatten, the Fifes had two daughters and no sons so an exception was made to allow them to succeed to the title.

 

[Meraude]

To allow daughters to inherit titles are something new, the traditional inheritence have always been through the male line, patrilineality. One reason for excluding daughters have been that when a woman marries, she gets/takes her husband's name and thus the family name is lost. For a long time when it came to royal titles there was the Salic Law, Salic law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Only males could inherit a throne, that was the case in for example France and in Russia after the death of Catherine the Great. That was why it was so important for the last Russian tsar to get a son, his daughters' could not inherit his throne.

Today several monarchies in Europe have absolute primogeniture, the firstborn inherits the thorne regardless of sex: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg.

 

[principessa]

I have one question about the titles of the House of Arenberg. The members have the tites Prince(ss) and Duke (Duchess) of Arenberg. Ist Prince(ss) meaning Fürst/in or Prinz/essin?

Thank you!

 

[Meraude]

I have one question about the titles of the House of Arenberg. The members have the tites Prince(ss) and Duke (Duchess) of Arenberg. Ist Prince(ss) meaning Fürst/in or Prinz/essin?

According to German Wikipedia: Fürsten von Arenberg Haus Arenberg

 

[Grandduchess24]

In royalty there are usually 3 letters that come before your royal stature but I was just wondering if one is higher than the other:
HRH
HH
HSH
HI&RH
HIH
HM
HIM