Non-British Styles and Titles

[Artemisia]

Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.
...

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

And another question:

*I'm quite confused about the titles of the German Princes of Reuss. The XIII Prince of Reuss has a son called Heinrich, and I do believe that he is titled as the XLII Prince of Reuss. If the title is hereditary, then wouldn't he be the XIV Prince of Reuss? Could someone who knows the answer explain? Thanks!

P.S- I hope I don't sound annoying by asking these questions! This topic has always confused me and I'm always willing to learn new facts and information.

 

[Meraude]

I'm quite confused about the titles of the German Princes of Reuss. The XIII Prince of Reuss has a son called Heinrich, and I do believe that he is titled as the XLII Prince of Reuss. If the title is hereditary, then wouldn't he be the XIV Prince of Reuss? Could someone who knows the answer explain? Thanks!

There are several branches of the Prince of Reuss family, and I found this explanation of the numbering of the princes Heinrich:

The members of these branches of this line shared a numbering sequence which began and ended roughly as centuries began and ended. From: Reuss

So it seems to depend on in which century a prince Heinrich was born in, the father was born early in the century and there were only 12 Heinrich's before him, while his son was born later on in the century and by then there were already 41 Heinrich's in the family tree, so he became number XLII.

 

[Princess Robijn]

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

It's called the principle of proximity of blood. In this case it means that only those within three degrees of kinship can succeed and that only those within two degrees of kinship are members of the Royal House. (Of course this also includes his or her spouse.)

Technically, the Queen can make them Princesses and Prince now (Article 9.2*), or King Willem-Alexander can make them Princesses and Prince within 3 months after becoming King. Of course it won't be an issue, because if the Queen wanted them to be Prince or Princess, she would have arranged it before the wedding of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien.

If the Queen would choose to create them Princesses and Prince, IMO it would have to be confirmed by King Willem-Alexander as they will no longer be part of the Royal House after the abdication of Queen Beatrix. But I could be wrong about the need for confirmation. It's from the same law I mentioned HERE.** Within 3 months after loosing the right to be part of the Royal House, it has to be decided if the person it's about will have the personal title of Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The law does not specify as to why a member of the Royal family loses his or her membership of the Royal House. (Article 9.3*)

The title Count of Orange-Nassau (& Jonkheer van Amsberg) is hereditary for the male line though.

* wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation
** Google Translation lists those eligible for the personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau as members of the Royal family. This is incorrect. The correct translation of the Dutch "Koninklijk Huis" is Royal House.

 

[Artemisia]

Thank you for the excellent explanation, Princess Robijn!
I was aware of three degrees of kinship in regards to the succession but not two degrees of kinship in regards to membership in the Royal House.

To be honest though I still don't see why Constantijn's children won't be members of the House though. Aren't they within two degrees of kinship to Willem-Alexander? And if they aren't, how is Princess Margriet eligible to remain a member of the Royal House?

Willem-Alexander -> Prince Constantijn -> Constantijn's children
Willem-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix -> Princess Margriet

 

[Stefan]

As far as i know there was an exception made for Princess Margriet.
But if Constantijn's children will not be members of the Royal House why are Prince Maurits and Prince Bernhard now? They are related in the same way to Queen Beatrix then Constatijn's children to Willem-Alexander.

 

[Artemisia]

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The Monarch and his/her spouse
- The former Monarch (who abdicated) and his/her spouse
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

Maurits and Bernhard are currently in the Line of Succession and members of the Royal House. They will cease to be in the succession line upon Willem-Alexander's accession and will also automatically lose membership of the Royal House. Princess Margriet is and will remain both in the Line of Succession and member of the Royal House. So far everything is clear. But then Prince Constantijn's children will lose their membership in the Royal House upon Willem-Alexander's accession, even though they will remain in the Line of Succession. I just don't see the logic behind that.


Just for the record, I take the information Constantijn's children will cease to be members of the Royal House directly from the official website:

From that moment on, under the Membership of the Royal House Act, the children of Princess Margriet and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven and the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien will cease to be members of the Royal House

 

[Princess Robijn]

It's 2 different issues.

2 degrees of Kinships means the following in the case of Prince Constantijn's children:
Eloise, Claus-Casimir & Leonore -> Constantijn (1 degree) -> Beatrix (2 degrees) -> Willem-Alexander (3 degrees)

This means they will still be in line of succession to the throne (3 degrees of Kinship), but won't be members of the Royal House. (2 degrees)

As for Margriet and her oldest two sons. Article 3.1 from the Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis (link above) states that everyone who was an adult at the effective date of the Act (as well as their respective spouses) would remain a part of the Royal House as long as they were in line of succession. Therefor, Princess Margriet and her sons kept their membership of the Royal House with the Act of 2002. (With Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris losing their memberships later on, because they didn't ask permission for their respective marriages.) Princess Margriet will remain in line of succession and therefor will also remain a member of the Royal House and Princes Maurits and Bernhard, no longer in line to the throne, will loose their membership of the Royal House.

I do agree with you (Artemisia) though. I see no logic in someone being in line of succession, but not a member of the Royal House. It's not like it's the line of succession to the British throne.

However, membership of the Royal House CAN be given by Royal Degree, providing he or she is in line of succession. (Membership can also be given to spouses) Article 4. This does need to be approved by the Raad van State (= Council of State)

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

This is incorrect, it states:
Those who are in line of succession [and spouses], provided that they are not further then 2 degrees Kinship [apart from the King*]

* is insinuated, but not actually stated in Article 1a.

 

[Artemisia]

That makes sense now. Once more, thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
I have to say though it would have been more logical to apply the same three degrees of kinship rule to inclusion in both the Line of Succession and the Royal House.

 

[Warren]

The British Forums has a lengthy thread titled Questions about British Styles and Titles.

The current thread on the topic of styles and titles in 'Royal Ceremony and Protocol' was intended for Continental and other non-British royalty. However, of late there has been significant duplication of British-related questions in both threads.

To avoid such duplication and to help clarify the situation, the Royal Ceremony & Protocol thread has been amended to read 'Questions about [non-British] Styles and Titles'.

A number of recent posts discussing British styles and titles have been moved over to the thread in the British Forums.
.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I understand that most, if not all royal/princely children in Europe bear their father's title and style.

My question is:

For example, if a Spanish Infante had a son named Carlos and he was titled His Royal Highness Infante Carlos of Spain without holding the title of Duke, Count or Marquis, would his children be Infantes/Infantas as well or "just" Dons/Doñas?

Any help/answers would be appreciated.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Can anyone help?

 

[Ish]

According to Wikipedia Infante/Infanta is a title and rank held by the children of the monarch who are not the heir to the throne, the male-line grandchildren of the reigning monarch, and the wives of the above.

Carlos, Duke of Calabria and his mother, Alice of Bouron-Parma have also been given the title of Infante/a of Spain, because they represent a historical link to the Spanish crown (Carlos' father, Alfonso, was heir presumptive to Alfonso XIII, who was the last Spanish monarch before Juan Carlos). Carlos is the first person in line to the Spanish throne after the legitimate descendants of Juan Carlos.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I understand that most, if not all royal/princely children in Europe bear their father's title and style.

My question is:

For example, if a Spanish Infante had a son named Carlos and he was titled His Royal Highness Infante Carlos of Spain without holding the title of Duke, Count or Marquis, would his children be Infantes/Infantas as well or "just" Dons/Doñas?

Any help/answers would be appreciated.

As per Wiki : The children of an Infante or Infanta have the rank of Grandees, and the style of or His or Her His or Her Excellency,examples HE Don Felipe de Marichalar de Borbón or HE Doña Victoria de Marichalar de Borbón (children of Infanta Elena). Hope this helps you.

Spanish Royal Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

According to Wikipedia Infante/Infanta is a title and rank held by the children of the monarch who are not the heir to the throne, the male-line grandchildren of the reigning monarch, and the wives of the above.

Carlos, Duke of Calabria and his mother, Alice of Bouron-Parma have also been given the title of Infante/a of Spain, because they represent a historical link to the Spanish crown (Carlos' father, Alfonso, was heir presumptive to Alfonso XIII, who was the last Spanish monarch before Juan Carlos). Carlos is the first person in line to the Spanish throne after the legitimate descendants of Juan Carlos.

Thanks for replying Ish, I understand now.

From your explaination, I imagine that the children of the Infante would be Dons/Doñas.

As per Wiki : The children of an Infante or Infanta have the rank of Grandees, and the style of or His or Her His or Her Excellency,examples HE Don Felipe de Marichalar de Borbón or HE Doña Victoria de Marichalar de Borbón (children of Infanta Elena). Hope this helps you.

Spanish Royal Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's also helped, thanks An Ard Ri.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Thanks for replying Ish, I understand now.

From your explaination, I imagine that the children of the Infante would be Dons/Doñas.



That's also helped, thanks An Ard Ri.

Yes Don/Doña which I believe are the equivalent of the British Lord/Lady.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

If Caroline were to succeed Albert as the sovereign of Monaco would it become a royal house as the Luxembourg family did with Charlotte's marriage. Caroline is an HRH because of her marriage to the prince of Hanover. So then would all Monegasque sovereigns after her be HRHs too?

I'm assuming Albert will have an heir but in case Caroline does succeed.

 

[NGalitzine]

No because Carolines sons are not HRH. Only Alexandra is an HRH and she would not pass that on to her children. Carolines children, if she were to come to the throne would be HSH Prince/Princess of Monaco. Alexandra could also still continue to call herself HRH Princess of Hanover if she wished.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

No because Carolines sons are not HRH. Only Alexandra is an HRH and she would not pass that on to her children. Carolines children, if she were to come to the throne would be HSH Prince/Princess of Monaco. Alexandra could also still continue to call herself HRH Princess of Hanover if she wished.

If they are nothing now why would they be HSH if she came to the throne? If she is an HRH why could she not pass that to them? Either way they have nothing now so why should they even gain an HSH? I just thought Caroline coming to the throne would work the same as things did in Luxembourg (although I understand Charlotte didn't have children yet when she became HRH).

 

[Meraude]

If they are nothing now why would they be HSH if she came to the throne? If she is an HRH why could she not pass that to them? Either way they have nothing now so why should they even gain an HSH? I just thought Caroline coming to the throne would work the same as things did in Luxembourg (although I understand Charlotte didn't have children yet when she became HRH).

A parent can only pass on the titles she/he has had from birth, not titles she/he have got through marriage to children born in previous marriages. If Caroline becomes the sovereign princess of Monaco she will be able to grant whatever titles she wishes to her children, but only the HSH which was hers by birth, not the HRH she got by marriage. In the case of Charlotte of Luxembourg the children got their HRH from their father, who had the right of that title by birth, not from their mother.

 

[NGalitzine]

If they are nothing now why would they be HSH if she came to the throne? If she is an HRH why could she not pass that to them? Either way they have nothing now so why should they even gain an HSH? I just thought Caroline coming to the throne would work the same as things did in Luxembourg (although I understand Charlotte didn't have children yet when she became HRH).

Caroline's HRH comes only from her marriage to HRH The Prince of Hanover. He can pass along the HRH and Hanover titles to his children which includes his daughter Alexandra from his marriage to Caroline of Monaco but not to his Casiraghi step children. If Caroline were to become Sovereign Princess of Monaco her children would become HSH Prince/Princess of Monaco.
Charlotte of Luxembourgs children became HRH because they were all the result of her marriage to HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon Parma. He passed the HRH and the Bourbon Parma title onto his children from that marriage.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Some of the many titles held by Albert II of Monaco



Duke of Valentinois


Duke of Valentinois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duke of Mayenne


Duke of Mayenne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Marquis of Baux


Marquis of Baux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Count of Polignac,Ferrette, Belfort, Thann and Rosemont ect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Monaco

 

[Mbruno]

Well, taking advantage of this topic, I would like to ask something.

I heard that, at the time of the wedding, Princess Maxima was created Princess Maxima of the Netherlands, although she uses, by courtesy, the title of HRH Máxima, Princess of Orange. And, in the event of a divorce (God forbid), she would be styled "HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands".


I hope this is not too confusing....

Under Dutch law, a person loses the title of "Prince/Princess of the Netherlands" once he/she ceases to be a member of the royal house ( Wet lidmaastschap koninklijk huis, Artikel 8(3)). Hence, if princess Maxima had divorced prince Willem-Alexander before he became king, she would have ceased to be a princess of the Netherlands and an HRH. Under the law, however, as a former member of the royal house, she could have retained her other title of "princess of Orange-Nassau" and could have also been inducted following the divorce into the Dutch nobility, e.g. as a countess or a baroness, just as Queen Beatrix made prince Friso a count after he married Mabel and, as a result, lost his place in the line of succession and in the royal house.

Note also that the title of "Prince/Princess of Orange" is reserved by law to the heir apparent of the Dutch throne only. Princess Maxima was never styled "princess of Orange".

 

[Mbruno]

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

Members of the royal house are those who are in the line of the succession to the Dutch throne and are related to the current monarch no further than the second degree of kinship. People who can succeed to the throne are those who are legitimate descendants of King Willem I, related to the current monarch by no further than the third degree of kinship, and not disqualified by law (for example, for having married without parliamentary approval or for descending from someone who married without parliamentary approval).

Prince Constantijn's children were born as members of the royal house as grandchildren of the monarch (second degree of kinship). Once King Willem Alexander ascended the throne, they ceased to be members of the royal house, but remain in the line of succession as nephews of the current monarch (third degree of kinship).

While they were members of the royal house, prince Constantijn's children could have been created "prince/princesses of Orange-Nassau" by royal decree, but Queen Beatrix chose instead to elevate them to the Dutch nobility as "count/countesses of Orange-Nassau". King Willem-Alexander could have also made them prince/princesses of Orange-Nassau within 3 months of his accession, but again he chose not to do so.

The nobility title of "count/countess of Orange-Nassau" BTW is hereditary in male line with transmission to all male or female issue. In other words, Claus Casimir's children, if he has any, will all automatically become also counts/countesses. Eloise's and Leonore's children, however, will be untitled, unless they inherit some other title from their respective fathers.

 

[Mbruno]

There is a difference between how the children of English/British and Continental aristocracy are titled. In the U.K. only the oldest son have a title while all the children of Continental aristocracy have a title, I think it's true in most, if not all, European countries. There are usually no equivalent titles to the British Lord/Lady in other European languages.

As I understand it, both possibilities exist in Belgium/the Netherlands and in Sweden, i.e. either the title passes to all legitimate descendants (in male line) of the title holder, or the title is inherited by the first-born son only.


In the Netherlands or in Belgium, when only the first-born son inherits a title e.g. of count or baron, his other siblings are styled jonkheer/jonkvrouw instead. That was originally the case e.g. of Queen Mathilde's father, whose older brother was a baron, and of Mathilde herself, who was born a jonkvrouw, not a baroness. When she got married to prince Philippe though, King Albert II decided to raise her entire family to the rank of count/countess with transmission to all legitimate descendants in male line.

 

[Furienna]

The titles "junker" and "jungfru" existed in Sweden as well in Medieval times. The Virgin Mary is still called "Jungfru Maria". But in the 18th century, the title for aristocratic girls was changed to "fröken". And when the middle class girls started calling themselves "mamsell" (which was derived from the French title "Mademoiselle"), the "jungfru" title lost its status. It was eventually used for servant girls, just like the English title "maid" gradually changed from "aristocratic girl" to "servant girl". But in the 1860s, Swedish middle class girls started calling themselves "fröken" as well, and it would later become the default title for any unmarried woman from any social class. And we can still use it as a title for a female school teacher (whether she's married or not).

 

[An Ard Ri]

What is the English equivalent of "junker" is it Lady?

 

[Furienna]

"Junker" (the best translation to English would be "young lord" or "young master") is a male title, which was used for boys within the aristocracy. When they were old enough to have a career and get married, they would get a more "proper" title. It was commonly used by young men in Medieval times, who were training to become knights. And even later on, it was used by young aspirants within the military.

 

[Rudolph]

I have a question. Do former monarchies ever make formal complaints about their royals continuing to be granted courtesies in other countries. Like does the government of Greece ever say to Britain or Denmark stop treating Constantine as if he is still royal?

 

[Muhler]

I have a question. Do former monarchies ever make formal complaints about their royals continuing to be granted courtesies in other countries. Like does the government of Greece ever say to Britain or Denmark stop treating Constantine as if he is still royal?

Can't speak for Britain.
While Greece may complain about of how King Constantine is treated by Denmark, there is really not much they can do. - As long as DK does not officially recognice King Constantine as an official representative of Greece, let alone the head of state.
If a Greek citizen is treated like a royal in a foreign country, well, so be it.

The Danish view is: Once a majesty always a majesty, unless he/she abdicates or is no longer recogniced as royal by the DRF.

So there is little conflict in for example the Greek President being received by QMII as the Greek head of state, and later on recieving the ex-King of Greece as her personal guest.
It annoys the Danish Foreign Ministry though! - But they just have to live with it...