New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[ACO]

Haven't seen him rant or cry. Simply calmly, but with visible emotion, explain he was not kept in the loop. And then when it did happen, he was notified by the Lord Chamberlain and not his mother. Margrethe or her advisers come out badly here. Not so much him.

I agree. I think the decision to slim down and strip is not a bad one. I actually understand the logic in it overall. But this was so badly handled.

From what we have been told their was zero communication lately. Why? This was never going to be a small news item. Removing titles is a major deal, so do it correctly.

Right now her grandchildren feel targeted and hurt. That is the opposite of what should be happening. They are old enough to understand. Why not sit down and talk to them. Why is it being leaked that they have not heard from her at all?

Why is HMQ sounding spooked by questions of decisions she made?

It is just so messy.

 

[Erin9]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

I don't see how this actually helped her though. Seems to me it has caused more drama than needed. If I were King Charles I would actually be looking at this and taking a moment to see what NOT to do in going about stripping titles.



In the past few years who have seen two families slim down publicly. I think King Carl Gustaf, so far has did it the best way. Publicly his family were all on board and it looked like a smooth thing. Whatever they felt behind the scenes did not matter.

Agreed. I hope Charles is taking notes. Sweden handled this well. Denmark- utter debacle.

It would appear she didn’t bother to speak to her son personally or her grandchildren regarding at least the final decision. I would think something like this warranted and deserved that. Maybe there wouldn’t be so much hurt now. On something that is obviously important to them- they got “staffed out” in the end. Seriously?

 

[sm1939]

I think in the long run its a good thing, but you are all right how they handled it wasn't great , However they still will get there modeling contracts and everything else as Counts and Countess.

 

[Prinsara]

I think in the long run its a good thing, but you are all right how they handled it wasn't great , However they still will get there modeling contracts and everything else as Counts and Countess.

But their relationships with his mother and their grandmother and maybe the rest of the family are now damaged. Does that mean everything's fine and it was worth it?

 

[tihkon2]

I think in the long run its a good thing, but you are all right how they handled it wasn't great , However they still will get there modeling contracts and everything else as Counts and Countess.

Sure. But the real concern is their relationship with their grandmother.

 

[Somebody]

or how about the good old fashioned no comment.

Imho that works really well if it is about tabloid rumors but less so if your mother the queen just made an announcement that impacts your family directly. No comment will most likely be interpreted as we are vehemently against it - otherwise you could have shared some words of support/understanding/acceptance.

 

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...k-STRIPS-four-grandchildren-royal-titles.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...elixs-mother-shock-decision-strip-titles.html

Prince Joachim speaks to the press.
I'm assuming they only want titles for working royals now.

I wonder if this will influence other Royal families?

 

[Winnie]

As an American, the first thought that came to my mind was "will this title change affect everyone and their way of life?" It won't the older model grandsons. They will still have lucrative jobs and still be grandchildren of a Queen. None of them seem to be "working" for the Queen but are still part of the Royal Family. So, I guess it is just the titles that is upsetting them. Would it have made it any easier if the Queen had a sit- down family dinner to announce to them what was happening? Who knows! She probably didn't want the fuss or any arguments over her decision. Guaranteed she ran these changes secretly by her sisters and her advisors for a long time. Why she didn't advise them privately months ago instead of only 5 days prior to the announcement in the media is something that only she can answer. She thought it ok, so she did it. The outcome was still the same. Titles redone for all but next in line's children. It seems to me that all the Royal Families want to define the difference between immediate personal family and the Royal "government" family, for lack of a better definition. The Queen's wanted change had to start somewhere, and she said now. Should she have secretly told them all but not announced it publicly until January 1st when it takes effect, maybe, but she didn't. Only the Queen is going to know if she made the correct decision, and she will have to live with it. I have always admired this woman for her different ways on many levels so I hope this way of accomplishing her goal will not affect her in the long run. JMO

 

[Somebody]

Joachim was advised of the titles being removed 5 months ago, not 5 days ago. He was advised which specific decision had been made and would be made public 5 days before the announcement.

Apparently, in those 5 months he didn't think of discussing this with his children - he probably thought he could still change his mother's mind about it.

 

[muriel]

But their relationships with his mother and their grandmother and maybe the rest of the family are now damaged. Does that mean everything's fine and it was worth it?

Its a pity if the relationship between Joachim (or his kids) and the Queen is damaged because of this. I can understand some near term irritation of the decision not been communicated clearly and well in advance but that is as far as it should go. Joachim needs to recognise that the decision is not a personal slight, it is merely HM, as CEO of The Firm, doing what is best for the firm.

 

[Alison H]

It does seem that most monarchies are slimming down, but surely it’s better to discuss any changes with those affected, and to try to reach an agreement which is OK with everyone.

 

[kalnel]

The more I read of this story, the more overblown I think it is. These are very privileged, loved, entitled princes with all the advantages in the world, who will soon be very privileged, loved, entitled counts with all the advantages in the world. It's not like they're being released into the woods and told to forage for nuts and berries.

Sure, change is hard, especially if it seems personal. And, while "recollections may vary" on the background, the announcement was clumsy. Still, this is hardly the end of the world for anyone.

 

[ACO]

Joachim was advised of the titles being removed 5 months ago, not 5 days ago. He was advised which specific decision had been made and would be made public 5 days before the announcement.

Apparently, in those 5 months he didn't think of discussing this with his children - he probably thought he could still change his mother's mind about it.

That is not how I took it. It seems the discussion was about the titles being removed years from now and it was still an ongoing conversation. It seems something on changed 5 days ago and that is why things are a mess now.

That said in those 5 months, why didn't their grandmother also not sit down and have a conversation? So much of this could have been avoided.

In the end the decision was a wise one but the execution was horrible.

 

[Muhler]

So Joachim went out in support of Alexandra.

That makes it official, there is a serious rift within the DRF.
Whether that rift is between Joachim and QMII, or also between Joachim and Frederik is open for debate and remains to be seen.

For whatever reason QMII decided that issue had to be decided now.

As to why a few ideas springs to mind:

A) QMII is more media savvy than we think.
She realized this would cause a public debate (it really didn't had to, but that's another matter) and chose yesterday knowing that the DRF only needs to hold the line for a few days, because come Tuesday next week the headlines in DK will be dominated by politics.

B) QMII was advised or urged to act and act now. - As there is no current public debate let alone public demand for resolving the status of Joachim's children right now, the only ones the finger could point at is M&F.

C) The issue was indeed raised in May and a draft for a solution put on the table for Joachim and his family to contemplate. They haven't responded or been dragging their feet or something similar and QMII's patience ran out and she cut through and said: That's how it's going to be!

D) There are pressing reasons for resolving that issue now, perhaps so that Frederik will be spared that task later.
That's the I'm going to abdicate soon/I could die any moment/I expect to die any moment scenario.

E) The ability of QMII to foresee the consequences of her actions is slipping.
That's the dementia scenario.
And it might not have been caught by her staff. After all if your boss is going to make a decision that involves his family, your are hardly asking: Are you quite sure this is rational?
- Yes, I know, some here find that distasteful. But everything that is not a verifiable fact or completely implausible is open for discussion and speculation. That's after all the purpose of forum like this.

F) There has been a major rift within the DRF for an extended period by now.
J&M suggested that when they went to France - some would say: Were exiled to France. They sure weren't happy about it!
And that issue (perhaps among others) has widened the rift within the family and now QMII can't be bothered and made a dynastic decision on her own. And (quite astonishingly) left it to her Chamberlain to convey the news.
- If that be the case, I think Joachim is going to be fired. In the sense that he will "resign" as a working member of the DRF at an appropriate point in the future. No doubt losing his apanage as well.

G) There are issues between Joachim and Frederik and for the sake of the DRF, the dynasty, the monarchy and the country she is taking the heat for Frederik by making the unpleasant decision and basically sacking Joachim and his family now - so Frederik won't have to do that later.
As the Monarch, QMII is hardly likely to side against the Heir.

H) Nikolai or Felix have done something, that has been hushed up, but is pretty serious and would reflect badly on the DRF. So better cut them off now.
- That something would have had to have come to the attention of QMII withing the past week or so, for her to make such a drastic decision. As such I think this scenario is unlikely but not completely implausible.

I) QMII has been monumentally thoughtless. And being in "Aunt Queen" mode has been completely blind for the emotional reaction of this to her necessary dynastic decision.
She does have a history of doing just that. She has admitted to being blind to PH's feelings about feeling left out and feeling inferior and disrespected during the first decade of two of their marriage.

J) QMII has studied the BRF. She has been watching King Charles, she has been looking at the family dynamics within the BRF and the issues there and she may even have had a confidential chat about what to do with QEII on occasion. - And she has been thinking and reached a conclusion.
- I don't personally believe in this scenario, but it's not implausible.

- That's what I can come up with right now.
As said before: Your guesses are as good as mine.

----------------

Now, I happen to think that the proposal of stripping Joachim's children of their royal titles at age 25 is a good idea.
At some point in the future we may be in a situation where Christian has no children - or those he have are not in perfect working order - but Isabella has children. In that case it would be sound to groom Isabella's eldest child as the next heir. At 25, it should be clear whether it Christian will have a child or whether we should count on Isabella's child.
Alternatively Christian's only child might get killed. - So the 25 age limit does leave a door open, just in case.
Perhaps with the condition that is they marry before the age of 25 it will be up to the monarch whether they will be stripped of their royal titles upon getting married.

The concept of the children of a monarch keeping their titles for life would be maintained.
Benedikte is the child of a monarch. Joachim is the child of a monarch. M&F's children are children of a monarch. Christian's children will be children of a monarch.
- Everybody else will lose their titles. And that I think is a sensible approach.

I'm surprised at the strong reaction of Joachim! We are talking really hurt feelings there!
We can always debate whether these hurt feelings are justified or rational, that is actually beside the point. The main point is the Joachim, Alexandra, Marie and their children are feeling hurt, rejected, offended you name it.
Royals are human beings and sometimes they react like human beings.
I think those of us who are parents have been guilty of sometimes reacting very strongly, perhaps even to the point of being irrational, when it comes to our children.
It will take time to heal the rift within the DRF, if it will ever heal.
I will, I think, depend very much on whether Frederik was involved in this decision or not.
- I'm very sad to see this.

I think this has been handled in an unnecessary clumsy way. And this one we can't blame on the staff.
This one is a DRF blunder! An irreparable one, I fear.

ADDED: I think it was a poor call for Alexandra and then Joachim to come saying what they did.
It only reflects bad on them in the long run and it makes no difference, their children won't get their royal titles back.
And the public sympathy is limited. Most Danes I dare claim will at best feel sorry for the way the titles were stripped from Joachim's children, but still be in full agreement that the titles had to go.
So Alexandra and Joachim are fighting a lost battle.
It would have been more dignified for all parts had they just sucked it up.

 

[Sister Morphine]

None of Joachim's children will want for anything in this life. Not food, not shelter, not clothes on their backs, not an education. They won't have less money now than they did yesterday. If the four grandchildren are truly upset about losing their titles and the HRH, one should ask why they're so upset. Did they attach more value to those titles than they should have? Being a prince or a princess doesn't make them better than people who have no titles, and being styled as a count or countess now doesn't make them less than their cousins.

While I agree QMII didn't handle this well, I'm getting a strong whiff of entitlement coming off the other side, and it stinks to high heaven.

 

[tihkon2]

Thank Muhler. I've been waiting all day to hear your thoughts on the revelations from today.

None of Joachim's children will want for anything in this life. Not food, not shelter, not clothes on their backs, not an education. They won't have less money now than they did yesterday. If the four grandchildren are truly upset about losing their titles and the HRH, one should ask why they're so upset. Did they attach more value to those titles than they should have? Being a prince or a princess doesn't make them better than people who have no titles, and being styled as a count or countess now doesn't make them less than their cousins.

While I agree QMII didn't handle this well, I'm getting a strong whiff of entitlement coming off the other side, and it stinks to high heaven.

I'm getting a strong whiff of "my grandmother didn't have the decency to talk to me about this. Shows how much she cares...."

 

[Alisa]

I have long thought the decision for Joachim and Marie to be based in Paris was more or an " exile" and their reactions to the announcement just confirms it.

1. It is of course in QMII's power to create titles and to remove them as she pleases.

2. Joachim and Alexandra come off as spoilt brats.
2.1 Joachim as a family head very well knew for months that there were plans in motion to remove the titles. He should have given them a heads up that this was coming down the line.

2.2. I don't understand Joachim's statements about his children having an identity crisis. They never represented Denmark in an official capacity, they don't have offices, personnel..etc. Their identity is based on who they are (grandchildren of the Sovereign) not what titles they have. Joachim can learn a lesson or 2 from Princess Anne's children.

2.3 What harm could possibly come to the children? Will they now be at an increased risk for kidnapping because they are Count/Countess instead of Prince/Princess?

In my opinion, this was a very smart decision. I hope HM makes it clear that it is to be carried out and extended when Frederik becomes king.

 

[Erin9]

Imho that works really well if it is about tabloid rumors but less so if your mother the queen just made an announcement that impacts your family directly. No comment will most likely be interpreted as we are vehemently against it - otherwise you could have shared some words of support/understanding/acceptance.

Anything short of specifically saying: we support this would be (rightfully) interpreted as him saying he didn’t support it.

His silence yesterday spoke for itself. When pressed- he gave a response.

 

[Mbruno]

Thanks, Muhler. You have put forward many different hypotheses and I don’t have the time right now in the middle of a working day to consider each of them.

Let me just say that I hope it is not D , although, as you may recall, I thought Frederik’s speech at the Jubilee gala was strange.

I am probably in the minority here, that personally I think the major issues were a general trend in other monarchies to slim down plus dissatisfaction with Nikolai’s and Felix’s commercial use ( or potential use) of the Prince of Denmark title, encouraged by Alexandra.

 

[Somebody]

I do believe that Muhler's option I at least place into all of this. The queen is just not good at understanding how others would react to a decision like this one. She has contemplated it for a long time, it made sense to her, so she made the call (probably urged by the sense that just like Elizabeth her last day could come unexpected) and doesn't understand why Joachim and his family are confused or hurt by this very logical decision...

 

[Sister Morphine]

I'm getting a strong whiff of "my grandmother didn't have the decency to talk to me about this. Shows how much she cares...."

No, their parents didn't have the decency to talk to them about it. Apparently, this has been in the works for a while. The fact that they're reacting the way they are now says that Joachim, Alexandra, and Marie didn't say word one to any of those kids about the fact this was going to happen, so if their noses are out of joint, the majority of the blame for that lays at their parents' (and stepmother's) feet, not QMII.

Also, none of this means she doesn't care about them or love them, and if that's what they think, again, that's their parents' fault. Says a lot about how they're being raised if they think a "demotion" in title means they're no longer loved/valued/respected.

 

[crm2317]

I feel like the summary is ultimately this decision is wise and in keeping with many other royal families streamlining but it’s been poorly executed and handled by all the adults involved.

 

[Erin9]

I do believe that Muhler's option I at least place into all of this. The queen is just not good at understanding how others would react to a decision like this one. She has contemplated it for a long time, it made sense to her, so she made the call (probably urged by the sense that just like Elizabeth her last day could come unexpected) and doesn't understand why Joachim and his family are confused or hurt by this very logical decision...

It comes across that she was clueless that her son and grandchildren would take this personally. Emotional intelligence seems to be sorely lacking here. It doesn’t matter what I- as an American - think of titles.

Plenty of people from deposed monarchies walk around using some form of courtesy title. It seems to matter to a lot of people in this world.

She might have known their strong feelings on this if she’d actually communicated with them the final decision. That might have helped in what message she is actually trying to deliver and why. I don’t know why she thought it was a good idea for STAFF to deliver this with little warning.

If they are the only ones affected by this- I can sure see why it feels personal. Like I said- she could have explicitly stated this is for all spares- Isabella etc going forward. Changes can always be made. Only directed at 4 people….I get it.

 

[ACO]

No, their parents didn't have the decency to talk to them about it. Apparently, this has been in the works for a while. The fact that they're reacting the way they are now says that Joachim, Alexandra, and Marie didn't say word one to any of those kids about the fact this was going to happen, so if their noses are out of joint, the majority of the blame for that lays at their parents' (and stepmother's) feet, not QMII.

Also, none of this means she doesn't care about them or love them, and if that's what they think, again, that's their parents' fault. Says a lot about how they're being raised if they think a "demotion" in title means they're no longer loved/valued/respected.

I say it speaks a great about about of all of them including QMII. He should have spoke when them but she should have as well. The fact she didn't bother can come across she didn't think they were worthy of the time. I can totally see why her grandsons are upset at the situation. They were blindsided. And it is clear we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes because obvious there are some strong feelings going around.

 

[suztav]

Exactly! Suck it up. It's not as if any of these children will ever want for anything.

Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra only have to look to their cousins in Sweden for a "hint" of what was to come ... they only have to look at the mess in the BRF ....

I think Joachim has always suffered from S3 "second son syndrome" .... he needs to get over it! People are starving in this world and he's complaining about titles? Crazy!

 

[kalnel]

Let me just say that I hope it is not D , although, as you may recall, I thought Frederik’s speech at the Jubilee gala was strange.

I am probably in the minority here, that personally I think the major issues were a general trend in other monarchies to slim down plus dissatisfaction with Nikolai’s and Felix’s commercial use ( or potential use) of the Prince of Denmark title, encouraged by Alexandra.

I'm beginning to wonder about the possibility of something going on with the Queen's health, too. Five days ago, when Joachim says he heard of the final decision, she had just been diagnosed with COVID. Strange that she would act on this apparently non-urgent matter while she was sick. I wonder if she received some other diagnosis that prompted her to move the schedule ahead.

Or, maybe Joachim is the one who doesn't have a grip. Did he really think they were going to strip the titles one by one for the next 14 years until Athena turns 25? And, if his kids haven't been able to come to terms with this decision in five months, would waiting years really help? Did he truly understand the schedule for how this was going to happen?

I do disagree, though, that this can't be blamed on the staff. It was a bad, vague press release announcing the decision, and it sounds like the press team failed to spend enough time briefing everyone before it went out. Even little things, like mentioning Prince Christian by name when he isn't directly involved, show a failure to think things through.

Good staff work might not have appeased Joachim and family, but it would have put the Queen's decision in a better light.

 

[tihkon2]

No, their parents didn't have the decency to talk to them about it. Apparently, this has been in the works for a while. The fact that they're reacting the way they are now says that Joachim, Alexandra, and Marie didn't say word one to any of those kids about the fact this was going to happen, so if their noses are out of joint, the majority of the blame for that lays at their parents' (and stepmother's) feet, not QMII.

Also, none of this means she doesn't care about them or love them, and if that's what they think, again, that's their parents' fault. Says a lot about how they're being raised if they think a "demotion" in title means they're no longer loved/valued/respected.

Completely disagree with you. I think the queen acted callously and imperiously without regard to her son and her grandchildren. And I'm glad they're not letting her slide.

 

[akina21]

I think it would have been better to postpone any title issues to the next generation , meaning to the future children of Isabella, Josephine and Vincent . This just comes across as really really mean. I probably wouldn't talk to my mother or grandmother for a while.

 

[Countessmeout]

I find myself feeling bad for Joachim and his family. This seems poorly done.

Why strip them? They are private citizens. It is known they will have no role and no funding. Removing the title changes nothing.

Better IMO would have been to

1. Clarify the titles are theirs alone. Their spouses and children will not share any honors but count/countess

2. Make it from now on: meaning in the future only the heir's children will be prince/ss.

Sweden handled it much better simply removing the royal styles but not titles of the grandchildren. The kids still more private but they dont lose a title they have had since birth.

This was a choice that should have been made before Joachim had kids.

 

[Sunnystar]

Joachim was advised of the titles being removed 5 months ago, not 5 days ago. He was advised which specific decision had been made and would be made public 5 days before the announcement.

Apparently, in those 5 months he didn't think of discussing this with his children - he probably thought he could still change his mother's mind about it.

No, their parents didn't have the decency to talk to them about it. Apparently, this has been in the works for a while. The fact that they're reacting the way they are now says that Joachim, Alexandra, and Marie didn't say word one to any of those kids about the fact this was going to happen, so if their noses are out of joint, the majority of the blame for that lays at their parents' (and stepmother's) feet, not QMII.

Also, none of this means she doesn't care about them or love them, and if that's what they think, again, that's their parents' fault. Says a lot about how they're being raised if they think a "demotion" in title means they're no longer loved/valued/respected.

I don't think that anything Joachim or Alexandra have said indicates that he did NOT inform his children of what his mother was contemplating, or the original plan as presented to him in May. The grandkids might have been saddened or upset or not understood why their grandmother was moving in that direction with regard to their titles, but nothing has been said that indicates Joachim didn't tell them what was going down. I find it especially hard to believe that he wouldn't have said something to Nikolai and Felix as they are both adults already.

I do think that, to some degree, that the sudden death of QEII and the unresolved issue of the HRH Prince/Princess styles/titles facing Charles III, might have influenced Margarethe to move the timeline up and not wait until each child turns 25 as originally proposed. That might have also blindsided and upset Joachim, because it was different from what he was told in May. And since it's clear his mother didn't pick up the phone to talk to him personally about her change in thinking, I can't really fault him for letting his emotions hang out there on his face for the entire world to see. That's just sad and tragic.