New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[wartenberg7]

I can't help wondering if HMQ wasn't at least partially influenced by the decision of Nikolai and Felix to bypass military training in favor of what Margrethe may consider frivolous careers such as modeling.

Even though the princes (particularly Nikolai) have the looks for it, Margrethe might disapprove this type of work as unworthy of a member of the Danish Royal House.

Just a thought. I still disagree with her decision.

I don´t think this was among the main reasons, but still you made a point here. Call me oldfashioned, conservative, whatever, but IMO Princes and Princesses of the blood royal, especially in a reigning monarchy, should not do modeling, acting, stuff like that! I even have sentiments against the things the older children of the former greek Crown Prince (especially his daughter, a grandniece to the Queen of Denmark) do...
When I watched Nikolai modeling I thought "well, this is a Highness, a Prince - and he is presenting silly clothes..." while his mother stated in every interview "how proud" she was of him. Yes, as a private citizen she is entiteled to be "proud" - and there is nothing wrong with modeling. But as the mother of the eldest grandchild of the danish Queen there is no point in stating over and over again how happy she was about the way he chose.
What really worries me is how the family deals with it. I was very much shocked to see Prince Joachim being obviously very upset about his mother´s decision and, with tears in his eyes, commenting in this brief interview in Paris about his and his entire family´s disappointment about the Queen´s decision...! Nikolai said something similar. They didn´t say something like you would expect "Oh, this decision was discussed in the family and we all came to the conclusion that, in the context of our modern times, and to widen the opportunities in life for future generations of members of the royal family not in the immediate line of succession, this was the best decision... blabla bla..."
Obviously their communication was foggy and full of misunderstanding and I do hope we don´t witness the beginning of a rift similar to the one in England... This could also damage the relationship between Joachim and the Crown Prince, the future King, whose children, only by accident of birth, are not affected.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I don´t think this was among the main reasons, but still you made a point here. Call me oldfashioned, conservative, whatever, but IMO Princes and Princesses of the blood royal, especially in a reigning monarchy, should not do modeling, acting, stuff like that! I even have sentiments against the things the older children of the former greek Crown Prince (especially his daughter, a grandniece to the Queen of Denmark) do...
When I watched Nikolai modeling I thought "well, this is a Highness, a Prince - and he is presenting silly clothes..." while his mother stated in every interview "how proud" she was of him. Yes, as a private citizen she is entiteled to be "proud" - and there is nothing wrong with modeling. But as the mother of the eldest grandchild of the danish Queen there is no point in stating over and over again how happy she was about the way he chose.
What really worries me is how the family deals with it. I was very much shocked to see Prince Joachim being obviously very upset about his mother´s decision and, with tears in his eyes, commenting in this brief interview in Paris about his and his entire family´s disappointment about the Queen´s decision...! Nikolai said something similar. They didn´t say something like you would expect "Oh, this decision was discussed in the family and we all came to the conclusion that, in the context of our modern times, and to widen the opportunities in life for future generations of members of the royal family not in the immediate line of succession, this was the best decision... blabla bla..."
Obviously their communication was foggy and full of misunderstanding and I do hope we don´t witness the beginning of a rift similar to the one in England... This could also damage the relationship between Joachim and the Crown Prince, the future King, whose children, only by accident of birth, are not affected.

Joachim is just every inch a De Laborde de Monpezat with his public sulking. He does the comital title De Monpezat 100% proud: très monpezat-esque alike his father!

 

[Bonastre]

And unlike her brothers, she will be demoted to a plain Mrs. if she marries a commoner. I hope that will be changed.

I don't think so. She will be Her Excellency Countess Athena of Monpezat, mrs. XXX.

 

[Blog Real]

There was a great lack of communication here when making this decision. I think that the best thing for all would have been a decision like that of Sweden, in which Prince Joachim's sons did not lose their titles, perhaps they ceased to be highnesses, and announced that in the next generation the nephews of the king or future king would not would have title. It would be a more sensible decision than withdrawing titles like this. It was a very drastic and unfair decision for those involved, some of whom are still children and the two eldest have grown up with the notion that they are princes.

 

[tommy100]

I can certainly see the boys using their titles for their modelling work might have brought into focus the idea "what are we going to do with them long term" but if it really was all down to that I would hope the family aren't so dysfunctional (though starting to think they certainly are) that Margrethe would have left it all this time and has taken drastic action now vs speaking to Joachim or the boys and asking them not to use the titles in their work. It would also seem hugely unfair on the younger two to take titles away for what the eldest two have done especially as there is no saying Marie agrees with it and would allow her two to do the same.

Thinking it through more I wonder if they should have done what I've suggested before the Brits should do - created a "Royal House" like the Dutch system to signify who is a "working member of the Royal Family" vs members of the Queen's family. The Swedish RF have done this also. It is IMO a good stop gap measure that would allow a clear distinction between "official" royals and titled members of the Queen's family. As I see it Margrethe could have announced:

-the creation of a royal house to signify members of the Royal Family who represent Denmark officially and support the sovereign in undertaking their duties and are the only ones permitted to any appanages or public funding
-for now it consists of HM, The Crown Prince and Crown Princess, Christian (by birth right), Benedikte, Joachim & Marie
-all others are members of the Royal Family or the Queen's family who do not undertake official duties are are free to pursue their own careers and lives outside the Royal Court and Royal House
-the Sovereign retains the right to add or remove people from the Royal House as situations demand
-the Crown Prince / Princess' children may be added to the Royal House when they become adults or stay as part of the Royal Family only, with their titles as personal to them only
-going forward the titles held by Joachim's children will be personal titles held only by them for their lifetime and not passed to children or spouses (I think she could possibly even have got away with taking the HH style as well)
-in future only the children of the sovereign and Crown Prince will have HRH / Prince / Princess titles all others will be (insert made up French title here)

Ended by saying how this is to ensure a monarchy fit for the future and to alleviate the burden from the other members of the Queen's family who all, of course, remain dearly loved family to the Queen.

They could have announced it during her Jubilee with statements from Fred and Joachim agreeing how they support it. Now let's all go stand on a balcony and show a united front, aren't we amazing and all that.

Like the way the Swedish dealt with it, this possibility shows they could have got to Margrethe's aim in different, more upbeat and less cruel seeming ways. One of the biggest issue with what Margrethe has done IMO is she has tried to keep it all a "business" decision, hence I suspect getting the Lord Chamberlain to tell Joachim, in an attempt to make clear this is the CEO of Royal Family Inc acting not mother/grandmother Daisy. The problem is what she has announced is purely personal as there is no mention of it being the same in the future. Had it been worded along the lines as above or even just that all younger children's children would have no titles going forward it would seem less personal IMO

 

[Kataryn]

I don't think we actually are a minority.

Certainly not off this board.

I'm still waiting for confirmation that according to comments on the official social media announcements, most Danish sympathy (those who care at all, at least) is with Joachim and his family, mostly because this was carried out in an atrocious fashion.

As royalwatchers here, we know all about slimming down monarchies. And this is literally what not to do.

Even people who don't follow royals this closely get it.

It truly has the effect of a revolution from above. The whole idea behind the "bicycle-monarchies" of Scandinavia is that Royals are approachable. So I believe the majority of Danes who are comfortable with their political system and enjoy getting their order of the Dannebrog for their services to their nation don't mind their queen having so many palaces, ballgowns, tiaras and simply Royal fun beside her duties. They are rather delighted to meet one of the Royal family in private in a restaurant, as was reported about F&M often. Having the oldest dynasty on their throne makes them not only proud but secure, IMHO, especially as Denmark is one of the richest nations in this world. Danes pay a lot of taxes to keep this system floating and them secure in it.

Now their queen appears to be ruthless and uncaring towards her own family, going against innocents with strict measures that noone has wanted before. "Hygge" is a Danish word of Germanic origin, related to German "Hege" (English: to care for, to harbour, to cherish, to look after) which means "taking care" of all that surrounds you, but especially of your family, friends and all those you are responsible for. There is a strong sense of responsibility in that very Danish word.

I wouldn't wonder if the younger kids (who have French nationality along with their Danish, AFAIK) will stay in Paris not only for school but for university and then: life. Returning to Denmark would mean to look out for pity in the eye of every Dane they newly meet. I don't know if the kids are shy, but they appear that way and when you are shy, such thoughts can be a big hindrance. Especially as they have to go through a truly rough patch from January, as other children are mostly cruel - something CP Mary's mother-in-law should know!

I personally think HMQ did not act responsibly towards her family and now there is no more hygge there. She decided it and they suffer. Somehow life can be very unfair.


(I'M not talking about the kid's still enormous prestige which is still more than the average Dane has. And how high are Danes compared with so many other people on Earth! I know all that, but I know how "hygge"and happy my family and my own life is. I'd wish that for them as well.

 

[wartenberg7]

I always had the impression the Royals of the younger generation consider their titles more of a burden rather than as a privilege and honour...
You can never generalise, but in this case, as well as when it comes to Harry, Duke of Sussexe´s (a man who, like his late mother, obviously has an "open invoice" with the institution which, from his point of view, put so much distress on him) children, it shows how titles and the status that goes along with it, is still taken very seriously by the protagonists and their reaction turn out to be very thin-skinned - also today!

 

[Michiru-Kaiou]

Well, when it comes to using the title outside the Royal business Dronning Margrethe II actually set the example:
Screenshot of the 2009 movie De vilde svaner
And, quite honestly, I cannot see the difference between modeling and scenography/costume design, both are entertainment. And I bet the producers of that movie were just as glad to get to use the Queen as advertizing material as that Hotel was to get the Prince. I am already curious what the credits of Ehrengard will show.

best wishes Michiru

 

[wartenberg7]

Well, when it comes to using the title outside the Royal business Dronning Margrethe II actually set the example:
Screenshot of the 2009 movie De vilde svaner
And, quite honestly, I cannot see the difference between modeling and scenography/costume design, both are entertainment. And I bet the producers of that movie were just as glad to get to use the Queen as advertizing material as that Hotel was to get the Prince. I am already curious what the credits of Ehrengard will show.

best wishes Michiru

Well, there is a huge difference between presenting another one´s clothes (helping another one selling clothes and getting paid for that is a very commercial thing, don´t you think?) and creating costumes for storys of the country´s most prestigious and worldwide known author, who still is a national icon, to be presented to a purely danish audience. But yes, Her Majesty, let me put it this way, has some "colourful" hobbies as well...

 

[Toledo]

8:12 AM Here in Upstate NY USA

If this could not get any worse, this morning my MSN browser had this from USA's Entertainment Tonight (ET) about the situation. So now it royally made the big news in the USA, I guess for lack of stories about the Windsors?

If you listen to the wording you notice is bait click from start to finish:

Royal Titles REMOVED! Denmark Prince Reacts to Family Drama

 

[Silverpot]

Phew! Finally caught up with this thread


First off; I think QM made the right decision. I don't see the necessity of having lots of princes and princesses running around, monetizing their status. It devalues the titles.


Could Margrethe have handled it in a smarter way? Possibly, but we don't know how the discussions have been going behind the scenes. Maybe the Queen finally felt that this wasn't going anywhere and decided enough is enough and just dealt with it, come hell and high water.
Joachim's decision to kick up a stink is unworthy, undignified and

does not become his status.



I've understod that the majority of posters on this board have a different opinion than me, but I've also noticed that the vast majority of that majority does not live in a monarchy. Interesting. Can it be that those living in a republic and take an interest in royalty are more nostalgic about it? I get that impression from a lot of posts here.

 

[xenobia]

Several posters have mentioned that prince Joachims children will never be working royals and are not close to the throne (although they will remain in the line of succession). But I think that it's relevant to look back at the situation when Nikolai and Felix were born. In 1999, Frederick hadn't even met Mary yet. But Joachim was married to Alexandra, and they had their two boys in 1999 and 2002. By the time Felix was born, Mary was indeed in the picture. But M&F were not engaged, and even if marriage was probably discussed, it's never 100% sure that any couple can have children.

Nikolai was third in line at the time of his birth, Felix was fourth. If Frederick didn't have kids, Nikolai would inherit the throne after his father. We know now that both brothers ended up having four children each, so Joachims children are not the main line anymore. But for a while there, they certainly were.

 

[Stefan]

Several posters have mentioned that prince Joachims children will never be working royals and are not close to the throne (although they will remain in the line of succession). But I think that it's relevant to look back at the situation when Nikolai and Felix were born. In 1999, Frederick hadn't even met Mary yet. But Joachim was married to Alexandra, and they had their two boys in 1999 and 2002. By the time Felix was born, Mary was indeed in the picture. But M&F were not engaged, and even if marriage was probably discussed, it's never 100% sure that any couple can have children.

Nikolai was third in line at the time of his birth, Felix was fourth. If Frederick didn't have kids, Nikolai would inherit the throne after his father. We know now that both brothers ended up having four children each, so Joachims children are not the main line anymore. But for a while there, they certainly were.

The situationwe as the same in Spain. when Forilan was born he was also third in the kline iof succession and Felipe was never engaged nor married. But still he was not made an Infante. If needed Nikolai could still have been upgraded to Prince of Denmark if Frederike did not have children of it's own.

 

[Prinsara]

I've understod that the majority of posters on this board have a different opinion than me, but I've also noticed that the vast majority of that majority does not live in a monarchy. Interesting. Can it be that those living in a republic and take an interest in royalty are more nostalgic about it? I get that impression from a lot of posts here.

Aside from the fact that not every poster is necessarily revealing their actual location on a message board, I don't live in a republic. I'm nostalgic for when the Danish monarchy made sense and Daisy's zany quirks were confined to her personal style.

It might also be noted that you live in a country where the situation was already handled sensibly and with tact.

 

[Mbruno]

I can't help wondering if HMQ wasn't at least partially influenced by the decision of Nikolai and Felix to bypass military training in favor of what Margrethe may consider frivolous careers such as modeling.

Even though the princes (particularly Nikolai) have the looks for it, Margrethe might disapprove this type of work as unworthy of a member of the Danish Royal House.

Just a thought. I still disagree with her decision.

I don't think it is just a matter of modeling being considered a frivilous career. In my opinion, Nikolai was clearly monetizing his title and there were indications Felix was about to do the same. Frankly, their mother, who (informally at least) seems to manage their careers, was pushing it. The boys won't be models forever either. At some point, they will probably transition to a career in business, which is their university degree after all, and may take advantage of their royal connections too, which would be even more delicate, especially if they worked for Danish companies.


Of course they can still take advantage of their Count of Monpezat titles and of the fact that they will always be grandsons of the Queen or nephews of the future King, but, without the princely title, at least they will not be directly linked to the Royal House anymore.


I don't necessarily agree that relatives of the monarch who are not full-time working royals cannot be princes/princesses, but, if they are, they must refrain from using their titles professionally. The York girls don't use "Princess" in their jobs for example, unlike Nikolai.

 

[Toledo]

The situation we as the same in Spain. when Froilan was born he was also third in the line of succession and Felipe was never engaged nor married. But still he was not made an Infante. If needed Nikolai could still have been upgraded to Prince of Denmark if Frederike did not have children of its own.

I assume the reason Froilan was not made an Infante was he was not the son of a Borbon prince, but a princess married to a male aristocrat whose surname preceded the Borbon surname. And I have a gut feeling King Juan Carlos's animosity toward his daughter in law had a lot to do with not getting pregnant over and over until a male child was produced. He bypassed with no remorse Froilan's mother, the oldest in the family, to his male child.

But, if it helps, all grandchildren of King Juan Carlos are considered Grandes, the highest distinction in aristocracy not just in Spain but in Europe since the Middle Ages. I think Grandes/Grand for example makes the Duke of Alba status higher than any non-royal family Duke in Europe. Is interesting it never gets mentioned but then, there's a pattern in the English-speaking media to put down any form of government, or in this case nobility, that is not UK/USA.

And to compare the Denmark situation to a similar one in Monaco, Caroline was the heir to Albert until he married and produced heir(s). Had she become the head of state her children would have modified their surname to Grimaldi and become Serene Highness Prince(ss) on Monaco.

 

[Stefan]

I assume the reason Froilan was not made an Infante was he was not the son of a Borbon prince, but a princess married to a male aristocrat whose surname preceded the Borbon surname. And I have a gut feeling King Juan Carlos's animosity toward his daughter in law had a lot to do with not getting pregnant over and over until a male child was produced. He bypassed with no remorse Froilan's mother, the oldest in the family, to his male child.

But, if it helps, all grandchildren of King Juan Carlos are considered Grandes, the highest distinction in aristocracy not just in Spain but in Europe since the Middle Ages. I think Grandes/Grand for example makes the Duke of Alba status higher than any non-royal family Duke in Europe. Is interesting it never gets mentioned but then, there's a pattern in the English-speaking media to put down any form of government, or in this case nobility, that is not UK/USA.

And to compare the Denmark situation to a similar one in Monaco, Caroline was the heir to Albert until he married and produced heir(s). Had she become the head of state her children would have modified their surname to Grimaldi and become Serene Highness Prince(ss) on Monaco.

Spain was only an example to say that i mean that the spare doesn't need to be titlted from birth only because the first in line isn't married and has children. If needed it can still be done later and i think that would be the better thing to do then to remove Titles later because now tere are many more inline beore him and he isn'Ät needed any longer as spare.

 

[Mbruno]

Spain was only an example to say that i mean that the spare doesn't need to be titlted from birth only because the first in line isn't married and has children. If needed it can still be done later and i think that would be the better thing to do then to remove Titles later because now tere are many more inline beore him and he isn'Ät needed any longer as spare.

I didn't follow your previous post, but the spare in Spain is titled. All children of the King who do not hold the dignity of Prince or Princess of Asturias are Infantes or Infantas of Spain with the style of HRH. And the children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias are also Infantes or Infantas with the same HRH style. That is independent of being a working royal or not.


The changes in 1987 in Spain were two-fold:


1. Children of Infantes or Infantas ceased to be HRH Infante or Infanta , and were given only the consideration of Grandees with the style of Excellency. As mentioned before, Grandee is the highest rank in the Spanish nobility and ranks immediately below Infante.



2. Consorts of Infantes and Infantas became untitled. To compensate for that, the King was allowed to give members of the his family the right to use for life a title of nobility belonging to the Royal Family, which their consorts can now carry by courtesy (like Duke of Lugo and Duke of Palma de Mallorca for example).



Note that the consort of the Prince or Princess of Asturias remains the Princess or Prince of Asturias and an HRH.

 

[Stefan]

I didn't follow your previous post, but the spare in Spain is titled. All children of the King who do not hold the dignity of Prince or Princess of Asturias are Infantes or Infantas of Spain with the style of HRH. And the children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias are also Infantes or Infantas with the same HRH style. That is independent of being a working royal or not.


The changes in 1987 in Spain were two-fold:


1. Children of Infantes or Infantas ceased to be HRH Infante or Infanta , and were given only the consideration of Grandees with the style of Excellency. As mentioned before, Grandee is the highest rank in the Spanish nobility and ranks immediately below Infante.



2. Consorts of Infantes and Infantas became untitled. To compensate for that, the King was allowed to give members of the his family the right to use for life a title of nobility belonging to the Royal Family, which their consorts can now carry by courtesy (like Duke of Lugo and Duke of Palma de Mallorca for example).



Note that the consort of the Prince or Princess of Asturias remains the Princess or Prince of Asturias and an HRH.

In 1998 when Forilan was born in Spain he was the spare like Nikolai in Denmark as Felipe wasn#ät married at that time and he didn't recieve a Title other than that he is a Grandee

 

[Kataryn]

The situationwe as the same in Spain. when Forilan was born he was also third in the kline iof succession and Felipe was never engaged nor married. But still he was not made an Infante. If needed Nikolai could still have been upgraded to Prince of Denmark if Frederike did not have children of it's own.

But Froilan was already a noble from his father's side and the place in the line of succession only came through his mother's side, so there was no need to make him an infante. But Joachim was a male-line heir, it was custom for his sons to be princes. Especially as the situation in Belgium was visible, where Baudoin's queen did not have chilren, so his brother Albert and then his nephew Philippe were the next in line.

 

[Mirabel]

I don't necessarily agree that relatives of the monarch who are not full-time working royals cannot be princes/princesses, but, if they are, they must refrain from using their titles professionally. The York girls don't use "Princess" in their jobs for example, unlike Nikolai.

Maybe not, but everyone knows who they are.
Would they truly have gotten their jobs otherwise?
They just aren't overt about using their titles.

I have been wondering if perhaps the Queen made her decision to spare Frederik?
She is in her 80's, and may not reign much longer. If she makes the hard decisions now, Frederik will have an easier time when he succeeds.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

But in this twitter video, he is referred to as HRH Prince Nikolai of Denmark, a title he clearly does not hold. And without it, he might not have gotten the job (MO of Greece being HRH is ridiculous but this is another matter).
Maybe this is just the kind of publicity that Margrethe wanted to prevent in the long run.
I think most agree that the step was right but the execution terrible.

To clarify my own statements, limiting HRH Prince/Princess titles in a modern monarchy is absolutely the way to go. My objection is
retroactive stripping which is almost always going to appear punitive, which it does in this case. Margrethe didn't even bother to soften the blow by referring to her son and his children as "beloved" ...anything really...to avoid sounding like a hard ass CEO looking at the bottom line and making difficult but necessary decisions by acting strategically. I admired her before. This has changed things.


Completely 100% agree about MO of Greece and her siblings. Too ridiculous.

 

[Alison H]

But, if it helps, all grandchildren of King Juan Carlos are considered Grandes, the highest distinction in aristocracy not just in Spain but in Europe since the Middle Ages. I think Grandes/Grand for example makes the Duke of Alba status higher than any non-royal family Duke in Europe. Is interesting it never gets mentioned but then, there's a pattern in the English-speaking media to put down any form of government, or in this case nobility, that is not UK/USA.
.

Is it? I have never seen the Anglophone media “put down” any form of nobility. Spanish aristocrats frequently feature in Hello magazine. And the USA doesn’t even have nobility, other than titles held from other countries.

 

[Sister Morphine]

8:12 AM Here in Upstate NY USA

If this could not get any worse, this morning my MSN browser had this from USA's Entertainment Tonight (ET) about the situation. So now it royally made the big news in the USA, I guess for lack of stories about the Windsors?

If you listen to the wording you notice is bait click from start to finish:

Royal Titles REMOVED! Denmark Prince Reacts to Family Drama

A tabloid news program in the United States is not "big news". When there are CNN roundtable discussions about it, we'll call it big news. Entertainment Tonight is a crap program watched by people who want to know what Kim Kardashian is doing right now. Outside of Americans who post on this message board, I'd guarantee no one here knows who the heck the Danish Royal Family consists of.

But Froilan was already a noble from his father's side and the place in the line of succession only came through his mother's side, so there was no need to make him an infante. But Joachim was a male-line heir, it was custom for his sons to be princes. Especially as the situation in Belgium was visible, where Baudoin's queen did not have children, so his brother Albert and then his nephew Philippe were the next in line.

If that's the case, Joachim's children should have ceased to be princes once Frederik had an heir and a spare. At that point, the line of succession was secured for another generation, and Joachim's line could be quietly demoted, for lack of a better word. Assuming he and Alexandra still divorced, and he remarried and had Henrik and Athena, they'd have been born a Count/Countess, and we wouldn't have the melodrama we have now.

 

[Erin9]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

Maybe not, but everyone knows who they are.

Would they truly have gotten their jobs otherwise?

They just aren't overt about using their titles.



I have been wondering if perhaps the Queen made her decision to spare Frederik?

She is in her 80's, and may not reign much longer. If she makes the hard decisions now, Frederik will have an easier time when he succeeds.

Connections can get you in the door- which is true royal or not. And, people everywhere use what they have. But if you can’t do the job- you’ll be out anyway.

Somehow I doubt it matters that- for instance- Eugenie uses HRH and Louise does not. They’re still granddaughters of the now late Queen. And Eugenie (and Bea) were not overt about using the titles professionally. I don’t remember what they did (does?) career wise- because they weren’t public careers.

This literally circles back to- if you’re not using HRH in a way that is a problem for the monarch- example to make money a la Harry and Meghan which was for TQ, and you don’t personally see it as a career hindrance, this need to to just strip titles completely and retroactively makes little practical sense to me.

I get the optics issue. I do. But can the public not be trusted to understand the difference between who is and isn’t a taxpayer issue?

TQ may have come across as sparing her son if she’d actually said she sees this as a path going forward. Explicitly. In the press release. We can say- that’s probably what she meant. But she absolutely did not say it. It looks punitive when- as things stand- she only applied it to 4 people. Particularly when she apparently didn’t bother to talk to them- or their father in the end- herself. She kept something impersonal that is personal to them.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I assume the reason Froilan was not made an Infante was he was not the son of a Borbon prince, but a princess married to a male aristocrat whose surname preceded the Borbon surname.

But Froilan was already a noble from his father's side and the place in the line of succession only came through his mother's side, so there was no need to make him an infante. But Joachim was a male-line heir, it was custom for his sons to be princes.

No, that's not the case.

In Spain under the Bourbon dynasty (until 1987), it was the custom to title both female-line grandchildren and male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign as HRH Infanta/Infante of Spain, provided that they were born from a marriage wherein

1) the spouse was of "equal" birth, and
2) the spouse married into the Spanish royal family and not the other way around.

If the spouse was of "unequal" rank, or the monarch's grandchildren were being brought up outside of Spain as members of a foreign royal family, then the children were not given royal titles, regardless of whether their parent was a Bourbon prince or a Bourbon princess.


Thus:

- the female-line grandchildren of King Alfonso XII by his daughters Princess María de las Mercedes and Infanta María Teresa,
- the female-line grandchildren of Queen Isabel II by her daughter Infanta María Eugenia,
- the female-line grandchildren of King Fernando VII by his daughter Infanta María Luisa Fernanda,
- and the female-line grandchildren of King Carlos IV by his daughter Infanta María Luisa,

were all HRH Infantas and Infantes of Spain.

The royal decrees creating them (as well as the royal decrees creating male-line grandchildren) Infantas and Infantes can be read here:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/infantes.htm#decrees


The custom was breached by King Juan Carlos I's Royal Decree of November 12, 1987, which ruled that going forward, both male-line and female-line grandchildren of the King or Queen of Spain (other than the children of the heir) will be "only" Excellencies.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

Again, there is still no inequality between male-line and female-line grandchildren.

 

[Erin9]

If that's the case, Joachim's children should have ceased to be princes once Frederik had an heir and a spare. At that point, the line of succession was secured for another generation, and Joachim's line could be quietly demoted, for lack of a better word. Assuming he and Alexandra still divorced, and he remarried and had Henrik and Athena, they'd have been born a Count/Countess, and we wouldn't have the melodrama we have now.

Seeing as there are never guarantees regarding heirs having children- is this supposed to be a habit going forward - giving titles and then taking them away when they don’t “need” them anymore because the succession is secured? That doesn’t sit well with me.

 

[Mbruno]

In 1998 when Forilan was born in Spain he was the spare like Nikolai in Denmark as Felipe wasn#ät married at that time and he didn't recieve a Title other than that he is a Grandee

Maybe we have different definitions of spare, but, when Froilan was born, Prince Felipe was the heir and Infanta Elena, who is titled, was the spare.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Seeing as there are never guarantees regarding heirs having children- is this supposed to be a habit going forward - giving titles and then taking them away when they don’t “need” them anymore because the succession is secured? That doesn’t sit well with me.

Why? Do you think someone going from "prince" to "count" or some other title means they're loved, valued, or respected less? If they're not being removed from the line of succession, if they're still fully-fledged members of the family, welcome at the same events and homes that princes and princesses are welcomed at...what's the issue here?

There's too much hang-up on the perceived value of one title over another. If QMII demoted Joachim's line AND removed them from the line of succession, meaning if something happened to Frederik and all his children, the crown would skip over all five of them entirely, then you could argue that it's an insult. That didn't happen, though.

 

[Blog Real]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie granted an interview to BT.

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie spoke about their relationship with the rest of the royal family and say they have yet to speak with Crown Prince Frederik and Princess Mary.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joachim-og-prinsesse-marie-til-bt-forholdet-til-kronprinsparret-er