Naming Customs of British Royalty, Favourite Name, Regnal Name and Numeration

[emmalisa]

Beatrice Elizabeth Mary
Michael George Charles Franklin

 

[Remini]

This topic has been most interesting to read, thanks for all the contributions Are there any books that deal with naming customs/traditions of the royal family in depth? After reading through the posts i started thinking of making it the topic of my bachelor thesis on onomastics. It is all very interesting but I haven't been able to find any books/documents that deal with this.

 

[yoyo1987]

I love these names:
Elizabeth Alexandra Mary
Andrew Albert Christian Edward
Beatrice Elizabeth Mary

 

[ajmacbagpipe]

Names and numbers

It is true that numbering of monarchs began anew with William the Conqueror. I have wondered why the same did not happen in 1603 with the accession of James VI of Scotland uniting of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland under one monarchy. Scottish coins drop the number and at least one historian has claimed that James believed the numbering would start all over again. It was not until the accession of William and Mary 86 years later that the numbers would have been noticeably different. William of Orange was William III of England, William II of Scotland and William I of Great Britain. Mary was the second of that name of both England and Scotland, but the first of Great Britain.
It seems to me that the numbering should have re-started with James VI and I.

 

[Mirabel]

I don't understand this whole name-change thing. Prince Charles has been Charles for 60 years. Why would anyone want to change their name after using it for so long? It's part of their identity. Can you imagine the confusion it would cause in the media not to mention boards like this if he started going by a different name all of a sudden? I hope he keeps his name. It's a nice regal sounding name and he's the only one amongst the current monarchies using that name. So it's distinctive.
Lilibet and Bertie were nicknames mostly used within the family so that was different.

I expect he'll keep Charles.
Albert wasn't really a "King" name, just Victoria's husband. Perhaps Edward VI thought it wasn't really English?

As for John, I understand that William was Diana's choice for her son; Charles favored Arthur. She won.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

I read somewhere that he doesn't really like his regnal name to be Charles because of the not so pleasant destinies of CharlesI & II.
Charles I was executed and Charles II had no legitimate children, but acknowledged a dozen by seven mistresses. He also lived in exile..

 

[Mirabel]

I read somewhere that he doesn't really like his regnal name to be Charles because of the not so pleasant destinies of CharlesI & II.
Charles I was executed and Charles II had no legitimate children, but acknowledged a dozen by seven mistresses. He also lived in exile..

But just about every king's name has negative aspects!
George III went mad, for example.
Henry IV had a horrible skin disease, possibly even leprosy.
Edward II was imprisoned and possibly murdered.
So was Richard II.
William II was killed by an arrow (possibly murdered).

If you rule out every name as unlucky, what's left?

 

[MRSJ]

But just about every king's name has negative aspects!

True but wasn't Charles I the one who was beheaded by his people because of the English people threw him off the throne? Maybe Charles doesn't want to be associated in any way

 

[KPWillie]

True but wasn't Charles I the one who was beheaded by his people because of the English people threw him off the throne? Maybe Charles doesn't want to be associated in any way

Yes I have read that Charles does not like the title King Charles because that ... but Heaven knows he has plenty of other names to choose from, like Phillip, Arthur, and George to name a few.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

But just about every king's name has negative aspects!
George III went mad, for example.
Henry IV had a horrible skin disease, possibly even leprosy.
Edward II was imprisoned and possibly murdered.
So was Richard II.
William II was killed by an arrow (possibly murdered).

If you rule out every name as unlucky, what's left?

King Algernon?

 

[abcdxyz]

Albert wasn't really a "King" name, just Victoria's husband. Perhaps Edward VI thought it wasn't really English?

I suspect that Victoria expected EVERY British prince to carry the name Albert from her children forward into infinity (all her sons had Albert as one of their given names), and I am certain that she expected Bertie to reign as Albert I.

I believe that he chose to reign as Edward partly to thwart her ambitions in that direction, and because, frankly, he hadn't had a really great relationship with his father.

 

[Zonk]

I suspect that Victoria expected EVERY British prince to carry the name Albert from her children forward into infinity (all her sons had Albert as one of their given names), and I am certain that she expected Bertie to reign as Albert I.

I believe that he chose to reign as Edward partly to thwart her ambitions in that direction, and because, frankly, he hadn't had a really great relationship with his father.

Victoria and Albert definitely had the plan to have the name Albert and Victoria in the name of all their direct descendants. I have never seen any mention, however, that either one of them thoughy Edward would rule as Albert when King. And from what I understand, Edward didn't have a great relationship with his father because they had two different schools of thought (one carefree and the other serious) in how they lived. I have never heard that they disliked each other or that Albert was a bad father.

In fact, when Elizabeth Alexandra Mary (the present Queen) was born, I believe that the Duke and Duches of York made note (in a letter to the King asking/telling of the name) that the name Victoria wasn't present in the list of names. Apparently they were conscious of the fact that the name had been present in the past. The King replied that it didn't matter. So either 1) at the time of her birth didn't think that Elizabeth would be Queen (i.e. Edward, Prince of Wales still had time to marry and produce a heir) or 2) that it was no longer necessary to include the name Victoria in the families "name" list.

 

[Mirabel]

I think it was Victoria who (I won't say disliked, but) disapproved of Edward VII.
She blamed him for Albert's death.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Victoria and Albert definitely had the plan to have the name Albert and Victoria in the name of all their direct descendants. I have never seen any mention, however, that either one of them thoughy Edward would rule as Albert when King. And from what I understand, Edward didn't have a great relationship with his father because they had two different schools of thought (one carefree and the other serious) in how they lived. I have never heard that they disliked each other or that Albert was a bad father.

I think the problem arose because Bertie wasn't interested in the type of education that Albert favoured and because the older child, Vicky was far more in tuned to Albert's education philosophy.

That being said, I also think, if Albert had lived he would have come to see the strengths that Bertie had for the role ahead and encouraged him to develop them and to work with his parents. Albert's death was sad for all concerned.

 

[melissaadrian]

George is the most popular name among British princes. 21 one prince was christened as George. Other popular names include Frederick (20 princes, though there has never been King Frederick), William (19 princes) and Albert (15 princes, all named after Queen Victoria's husband).

Mary is the most popular name among British princesses by birth. Other popular names include Louise and Victoria.

Someone said that the name John is regarded as unfortunate and that Diana's request to name her son John was rejected because of this superstition. Could anyone explain why?

Also, how do they determine how many names a royal child should have? I noticed that Queen Victoria was not very extravagant when she christened her eldest son. He was christened simply "Albert Edward". Most children of George III had only one name (though it was always strange to me that one of his daughters was Princess Augusta Sophia, while the other one was Princess Sophia). Others have (had) up to four names.
____________________________________________________________

The monarch's regnal name is his or her royal prerrogative. The first monarch on British Isles who chose to reign under a name that was not his first name was King Robert III of Scotland. In fact, he was baptized as John, but chose to reign as Robert III due to the unpopularity of the name John (he wished to avoid being called John II, as recognition of John de Balliol's kingship would weaken the Bruce claim to the throne).



The prerrogative was used again four centuries later, when Princess Alexandrina Victoria ascended as Queen Victoria. Only 3 monarchs have used a baptismal name other than their first given name as their regnal name, and they all used their last given name, coincidentally:

• Alexandrina Victoria > Victoria
• Albert Edward > Edward VII
• Albert Frederick Arthur George > George VI

Does anyone know why Queen Victoria chose to reign as Victoria and not as Alexandrina Victoria? Did she use only the name Victoria during her childhood or did she drop the name Alexandrina upon accession? Since she had no monarchical ordinal, "Queen Alexandrina Victoria" would've sounded much more glorius than simply "Queen Victoria".

Well we have King John who signed the magna carta
Prince Henry son of George V died from seizures at 14
George V's brother Prince Alexander, better known as John, died a day after birth
Diana's brother John died within hours of birth

There are other John's like John of Gaunt who lived a long life, but the recent royal history for John is a little doom and gloom.

 

[melissaadrian]

Peter is unusual name for the British Royal Family as well.

Here is a brief summary of the first holders of several names (usually first names) in the English/British Royal Family. If I’ve added “need to re-check this” next to the names, it means I am not entirely sure they were actually the very first Royals with the name and will have to make further research to verify it.


Eleanor - the first English Royal with the name was Eleanor of Aquitaine, the wife of Henry II

Arthur - The first English "Prince Arthur" was the son of Prince Geoffrey (middle son of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine). He was supposed to succeed Richard I, however Richard was instead succeeded by John I

Berengaria - the first English Princess (Queen) with the name of Richard I's wife (need to re-check this)

Elizabeth - The first Princess with this name was the youngest daughter of Edward I of England

Geoffrey - the name of Empress Matilda's husband was Geoffrey. Their son, Henry, would become King of England following King Stephen's death. Geoffrey's nickname would become the name of the new dynasty - Plantagenet

Margaret - The first Princess with that name was Margaret of France, the second wife of Edward I (need to re-check this)

Matilda - The first English Royal with the name was Matilda of Flanders, the wife of William the Conqueror.

Richard - I believe the first English Royal with this name was Richard I. It is rumoured that Eleanor of Aquitaine named him after her first love and that was the reason she favoured him above all her other children.

Robert - William the Conqueror's eldest son was the first English Royal with that name

Stephen - the first member of the English Royal Family with the name was Stephen, Count of Blois, the husband of Adela of England (William the Conqueror's daughter) and father of King Stephen.

Adela - the name of William the Conqueror's daughter

Blanche - the first member of the English Royal Family with the name was Blanche of Lancaster, the first wife of John of Gaunt and mother of Henry IV of England

Anne - although several Princesses bore Anne among their names, the first English Royal with Anne as her first name Anne Boleyn (I will need to re-check this though), Henry VIII's second wife and mother of Elizabeth I

Jane - The first English Royal with the name was Jane Seymour, Henry VIII's third wife and mother of Edward VI

Lionel - the first British Prince with the name was the third son of Edward III

Philippa - the first English Royal with the name was Edward III's wife, Philippa of Hainault (need to re-check this)

Gytha - the first English Royal with the name was Gytha of Wessex, King Harold II Godwinson's daughter, who married Vladimir II Monomakh

Some of those names were foreigners who married into the family, not born and named as British monarchs like Berengaria. But if we include people who married into it, or more distant relations like grandchildren of a monarch by their younger children:

Anne: Anne of Bohemia, wife of Richard II
Anne Mortimer: mother of Richard Duke of York who with his wife Cecily Neville was father of Edward IV and Richard III, so grandmother to 2 kings, great gradmother of the Tudor line
Anne of York, grandaughter of Anne Mortimer, younger sister of Richard and Edward
Anne Neville wife of Richard III
Anne of York (the second) daughter of Edward IV countess of Surrey

All come before Anne Bolyn in the British royal family

Richard:
Richard Duke of Bernay, second son of William the conqueror
Richard son of Henry I, died as a small child

Other common names for royal princesses:
Sybilla: the first would be married to William I's son Robert
Adeliza: first was William I's daughter
Cecilia: another of William I's daughters
Joan: first was daughter of Henry II
Isabel/Isabella: both wives of King John
Katherine: daughter of Henry III
Beatrice: daughter of Henry III
Agatha:daughrer of william I


and princes:
Edmund, son of Henry III
Edgar: son of King Edmund
Thomas: son of Edward III

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Names

If I'm not mistaken, Queen Victoria was the first time "Victoria" was used in England.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Do you mean as a given name or as a regal name?

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Victoria was the Roman goddess of Victoria and (according to both my index of names books, and Wikipedia), appears in 17 Indo-European languages. Wikipedia's list of famous Victorias doesn't have any in Britain before Queen Victoria.

But, knowing the extensive knowledge of people on this board, perhaps someone knows of a British Victoria (as a non-royal name) before Queen Victoria?

There have been so many Victorias since the Queen, it's hard to imagine that the name was new to Britain when she was given it; but it could very well be the case.

Any experts on naming in the 18th century?

 

[Royal Fan]

Question on this thread Hes Prince Harry on the one for him finding a wife Prince Henry why cant we call the man by his Birth name

 

[MRSJ]

Question on this thread Hes Prince Harry on the one for him finding a wife Prince Henry why cant we call the man by his Birth name

Well someone please correct me if I am wrong but his mother, father, brother, family call(ed) him Harry too, right? So I think it's ok if we call him either.... Much like Kate/Catherine....The BBC above called him Prince Harry

 

[Lumutqueen]

It's true that most people call him Harry, however Royal Fan is right the forums are named differently. Maybe the MODS could pick one or the other. Like before Kate became Catherine, her threads were all Kate. Now they are all Catherine.

 

[MRSJ]

It's true that most people call him Harry, however Royal Fan is right the forums are named differently. Maybe the MODS could pick one or the other. Like before Kate became Catherine, her threads were all Kate. Now they are all Catherine.

True, but from what I can see only the future wife one calls him Prince Henry of Wales, all the rest Prince Harry.... Makes no difference to me either way

 

[PrincessKaimi]

The forums seem to take an affectionate and respectful view towards Royals, and, well, Prince Harry seems to be called Prince Harry by just about everyone. It seems both affectionate and respectful. It's good to remember he has the other title, though.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Victoria was the Roman goddess of Victoria and (according to both my index of names books, and Wikipedia), appears in 17 Indo-European languages. Wikipedia's list of famous Victorias doesn't have any in Britain before Queen Victoria.

But, knowing the extensive knowledge of people on this board, perhaps someone knows of a British Victoria (as a non-royal name) before Queen Victoria?

There have been so many Victorias since the Queen, it's hard to imagine that the name was new to Britain when she was given it; but it could very well be the case.

Any experts on naming in the 18th century?

Wasn't Victoria named for her mother? She was a royal princess of German blood and maybe Victoria was the first British princess to be given that name but there might have been other Continental royals who were named Victoria.

According to Woodham-Smith who wrote on Victoria, the drafts of official documents prepared on her first day as Queen referred to her as Queen Alexandrina Victoria but the first name was withdrawn at her request and never used again.

 

[MARG]

Question on this thread Hes Prince Harry on the one for him finding a wife Prince Henry why cant we call the man by his Birth name

Well, we know that William's family used to call him "Wills" but never in public. When he was born he was presented to us as "Prince William", and William he has stayed.

Conversely when Harry was born he was presented to us as "Prince Harry" and both his parents and wider family refer to him publicly, as Harry. I have never heard him referred to as "Henry" except at his baptism.

The royal family have a tradition of "weird" when it comes to the males of the family hence David for King Edward and Albert for King George.

But back to Harry. "Harry" he was called and "Harry" he remains. To be honest whenever I think "Henry" I get ghastly visions of an extremely corpulent Henry the VIII!

 

[Mirabel]

Wasn't Victoria named for her mother? She was a royal princess of German blood and maybe Victoria was the first British princess to be given that name but there might have been other Continental royals who were named Victoria.

Yes, I think so.
I read that her father, the Duke of Kent, was keen for his little girl to be named Elizabeth, but his brother (George IV) wouldn't hear of it, and said the baby should be named for her mother.

 

[Mermaid1962]

When Prince Harry's name was announced, HRH Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales, it was made clear that he would be "known as" Harry.

 

[Mirabel]

When Prince Harry's name was announced, HRH Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales, it was made clear that he would be "known as" Harry.

See, I don't get that.
Speaking as a person who loathes nicknames, I never see the point of giving someone a name and then calling that person something else!

If the BRF wanted to call him Harry, then why not just name him Harry? Why name him Henry at all?

 

[MARG]

See, I don't get that.
Speaking as a person who loathes nicknames, I never see the point of giving someone a name and then calling that person something else!

I have to admit that generally it gives me the screaming irrits but, in this case, it happened over 25 years ago so why get bent out of shape about it?

If the BRF wanted to call him Harry, then why not just name him Harry? Why name him Henry at all?

You actually want the BRF to do something boringly normal? Are you NUTS? What would we have to talk about on the forums? Get with the programme . . . . . David/Edward, Albert/George!