Meghan Markle: Coat of Arms Discussion

[Gawin]

Tom Senior is not a British citizen. Why would he want a coat of arms?



Agree. It makes no sense for someone foreign, with no allegiance to the crown, being granted a coat of arms, not so?

If you read through some of the older posts (I have a hard time keeping up with them too) you'll see that much of the discussion has centered around whether Thomas Markle Sr. will receive a coat of arms or if it will be granted to Meghan alone.

British citizenship isn't required. U.S. citizens are eligible if they can prove descent from a subject of the British crown prior to American independence (Thomas Markle can). Refer to post #37.

 

[Lady Nimue]

If you read through some of the older posts (I have a hard time keeping up with them too) you'll see that much of the discussion has centered around whether Thomas Markle Sr. will receive a coat of arms or if it will be granted to Meghan alone.

British citizenship isn't required. U.S. citizens are eligible if they can prove descent from a subject of the British crown prior to American independence (Thomas Markle can). Refer to post #37.

Ah, okay, thank you, Gawin. I think it should be granted to Meghan alone. Makes more sense.

 

[Lady Reem]

I hope so! I think it made much more sense for Michael Middleton to receive his own CoA than Thomas Markle because the Middletons are on site (so to speak), are very involved in William & Catherine's lives (before the couple even married), and are even invited to Sandringham & Balmoral by the Queen. Meghan doesn't have that same relationship with her own family (father included) and in any case they live thousands of miles away. The Markle family's relationship with the BRF - or even the UK - will always remain tenuous.

I agree with all this, but from what I’ve seen particularly in photographs of her adult years she enjoys a very close relationship with her mother, other than that your post makes complete sense.

 

[Curryong]

Ah, so the precedent is there. Do you if that was because the Duchess of Gloucester's father wasn't a British citizen and didn't live in the UK, just like Meghan Markle's father?

I think that was primarily the reason, though the Danes do not have the equivalent of the British College of Arms Crown Princess Mary's Scottish-Australian father was granted a Coat of Arms from Denmark, I believe, so under certain circumstances it can be given there.

However, Birgitte's parents were divorced in 1966 (he remarried) and she ceased using her father's surname as her own from that time. Instead she used her mother's name Van Deurs. So that may have had something to do with the College of Arms granting Birgitte her own Arms on her marriage, I don't know. I read something years ago about her not being very close to her father. That is different to the Markle situation I must admit, but the precedent is there.

 

[burbankstorylady]

One place we're going to see a lot of coat of arms is when Harry and Meghan marry in St. George's chapel. Each Knight of the Garter has their coat of arms hanging there.



https://www.royal.uk/order-garter

But harry isn’t a KG yet.

 

[Curryong]

No he hasn't, but neither have others who've married there. The banners etc lend colour and a fabulous sort of medieval quality to the Chapel. It's gorgeous.

 

[Osipi]

Yeps. The banners (along with together with a helmet, crest, sword and an enamelled stallplate of present Knights) are a permanent fixture of St. George's Chapel. Its amazing to think that the Order of the Garter has been in existence since the 1340s.

The patron saint of the Order of the Garter is St George and as he is the patron saint of soldiers and also of England, the spiritual home of the order has therefore always been St George's Chapel in Windsor. Windsor Castle, itself, was first opened by William the Conqueror in 1070.

Loads of British history is surrounding the venue where this couple is marrying. I don't think you can get more "royal" than that.

 

[Madame Verseau]

According to Express Meghan will get a royal coat of arms says a KP spokesman:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...-family-crest-coat-of-arms-Kate-Middleton/amp

No mention that Tom Sr will get one for the family.

It would be amazing if Meghan incorporated her African-American heritage in her CoA. What about Meghan's maternal family? Is Meghan's uncle Joffrey Ragland the head of that side of the family? Could he get one?

 

[Gawin]

According to Express Meghan will get a royal coat of arms says a KP spokesman:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/roya...-family-crest-coat-of-arms-Kate-Middleton/amp

No mention that Tom Sr will get one for the family.

It would be amazing if Meghan incorporated her African-American heritage in her CoA. What about Meghan's maternal family? Is Meghan's uncle Joffrey Ragland the head of that side of the family? Could he get one?

In order to qualify for a coat of arms, Meghan's uncle Joffrey Ragland would need to prove his descent from a subject of the British crown. But the Ragland side of the family has only been traced to 19th century Georgia & Alabama.

 

[Somebody]

In order to qualify for a coat of arms, Meghan's uncle Joffrey Ragland would need to prove his descent from a subject of the British crown. But the Ragland side of the family has only been traced to 19th century Georgia & Alabama.

And Meghan would not be able to inherit it, so no point in giving her maternal uncle a Coat of Arms because his niece is marrying into the BRF.

 

[Madame Verseau]

So Meghan will automatically get a C of A because of her marriage. Tom Sr will have to apply to get one? Besides ancestry what else is needed? I reread the article and if Tom Sr is getting one KP would have announced.

 

[Gawin]

So Meghan will automatically get a C of A because of her marriage. Tom Sr will have to apply to get one? Besides ancestry what else is needed? I reread the article and if Tom Sr is getting one KP would have announced.

Yes, you are correct. Meghan gets one because she'll became a member of the British Royal Family. Her father would have to apply for one but as an American citizen he would need to prove he is a descendant of a subject of the British crown (which he is, as he has English ancestry).

 

[Pranter]

Of course in this day an age having a C&A in the U.S. won't even buy you a cup of coffee!


LaRae

 

[Madame Verseau]

I pulled up the College of Arms from Wikipedia and may be some sticking points for Tom Sr to get the coat of arms:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Arms

First the money. To apply it costs £8575 (over 12000 USD). No one knows if Tom Sr has that kind of money lying around. The other is one factor to be taken into account before getting it: be in "good standing in national and public life". It reads like a morals clause, like no scandals. The phrase is too broad; and I think reports on the family and what has been written about them in biographies about Meghan could be used as disqualifiers, for the sole Markle family crest goes down the male line.

 

[wyevale]

Why on EARTH would Mr Markle want one ? By all accounts he leads a secluded and retired life in Mexico, where such things mean even less than they do in America.

It is his daughter whose life now requires one, not him or the rest of his offspring..

 

[Osipi]

I agree that most likely Tom, Sr. would think paying all that money to apply for a British coat of arms would be silly. He has no want or need for one or most likely he would have done so for himself by now.

The importance of Meghan having her own is that its incorporated into her and Harry's conjugal coat of arms which is what their children would use (denoting son or daughter) until they came of age and perhaps got one of their own. We have to remember that most likely once Charles becomes King, H&M's children will be princes and princesses of the UK (unless otherwise requested).

 

[Somebody]

So Meghan will automatically get a C of A because of her marriage. Tom Sr will have to apply to get one? Besides ancestry what else is needed? I reread the article and if Tom Sr is getting one KP would have announced.

Depends on how you interpret 'automatic'. Meghan will need one, so they will have looked into the way to best take care of that. In Catherine's case it was done by awarding one to her father, so she could use his. In Meghan's case that is less likely, so most people assume that one will be awarded to her personally (which I would not consider 'automatic' but again that depends on what you mean by 'automatic').

 

[ACO]

Why on EARTH would Mr Markle want one ? By all accounts he leads a secluded and retired life in Mexico, where such things mean even less than they do in America.

It is his daughter whose life now requires one, not him or the rest of his offspring..

I don't think he would care but I can see his attention seeking family especially his kids pushing him to "claim it" and so forth. I wouldn't put anything pass these folks. Samantha was already whining about the CoAs.

 

[Countessmeout]

I don't think he would care but I can see his attention seeking family especially his kids pushing him to "claim it" and so forth. I wouldn't put anything pass these folks. Samantha was already whining about the CoAs.

Likely all the more reason he wouldn't apply for one. He wont want to do anything to help his kids latch on to Meghan's new role, any more then they have.

 

[cepe]

There is a parallel in the BRF

Birgitte Van Deurs was born in Denmark and her parents were divorced (Van Deurs is her mothers name)

A Coat of Arms was created by the Royal College of Arms specifically for her.

She is now the Duchess of Gloucester.

 

[ACO]

I have little doubt it will just go to Meghan and then it combine with Harry's to make theirs. That makes the most sense. We shall see. I suspect that is the next announcement.

 

[Spheno]

I agree that most likely Tom, Sr. would think paying all that money to apply for a British coat of arms would be silly. He has no want or need for one or most likely he would have done so for himself by now.

The importance of Meghan having her own is that its incorporated into her and Harry's conjugal coat of arms which is what their children would use (denoting son or daughter) until they came of age and perhaps got one of their own. We have to remember that most likely once Charles becomes King, H&M's children will be princes and princesses of the UK (unless otherwise requested).

Children inherit only their father's coat of arms. Mother's coat is only for her use.

 

[Osipi]

Children inherit only their father's coat of arms. Mother's coat is only for her use.

The children would use Harry and Meghan's conjugal coat of arms. If we really look, both Harry and William's coat of arms have the Spencer heraldry in them. Harry was granted his own coat of arms in 2002 at his 18th birthday.

The coat of arms is passed down through the male line but can also include the heraldry of the mother's side of the family. So with this in mind, Meghan's heraldry from her coat of arms will be incorporated into her and Harry's children's.

https://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2002/10/11/harry-crest/

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=83215&page=1

Maybe I'm a bit mixed up about this but hey.... I'm willing to learn.

 

[Spheno]

The children would use Harry and Meghan's conjugal coat of arms. If we really look, both Harry and William's coat of arms have the Spencer heraldry in them. Harry was granted his own coat of arms in 2002 at his 18th birthday.

The coat of arms is passed down through the male line but also include the heraldry of the mother's side of the family. So with this in mind, Meghan's heraldry from her coat of arms will be incorporated into her and Harry's children's.

https://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2002/10/11/harry-crest/

first, Harry has his own coat of arm and will have it without any Meghan's elements on it
second, Harry's children may have or may not have one element from their mother's coat of arm
third, Meghan's coat of arm will be use only by Meghan, not Harry or their children

 

[Osipi]

first, Harry has his own coat of arm and will have it without any Meghan's elements on it
second, Harry's children may have or may not have one element from their mother's coat of arm
third, Meghan's coat of arm will be use only by Meghan, not Harry or their children

OK. Gotcha on that and thanks for the clarification. The more I read, the more I realize where you were coming from and it all makes more sense to me now.

I really seriously doubt that any coat of arms that Meghan receives will be applicable for use by any other member of the "family" and that's how it should be. Samantha may be bleating and braying that she's as much of a 15th cousin to Harry as Meghan is through their father but then again someone should inform Samantha that the number of 15th cousins that Harry has today probably run into the thousands if not more.

 

[Humbugged]

I watched the CBS special which featured her Kappa sisters .Maybe there might be elements of their coat of arms included in hers

Gamma Fraternity Symbol # 690778

 

[Madame Verseau]

I think Meghan will solely get a coat of arms. The Markles have disgraced themselves so publicly there may be a loophole in the rules that the College of Arms says no. Since the college's authority is delegated by the queen, could she intervene and say no?

 

[Osipi]

Actually, I think for Tom Sr. to receive a coat of ams, he actually has to apply for one. Somehow, I seriously doubt that is something that he would want to do. Its not rocket science that Tom Sr. would know that applying and receiving a coat of arms stands a good chance of being abused by members of his family that would be most likely to abuse it.

I do think we'll see a specific coat of arms created just for Meghan, herself, so that she does have one to combine with Harry's after marriage. It will be interesting to see what it looks like.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

first, Harry has his own coat of arm and will have it without any Meghan's elements on it
second, Harry's children may have or may not have one element from their mother's coat of arm
third, Meghan's coat of arm will be use only by Meghan, not Harry or their children

In general, that is true, however, the UK laws of arms allow men and women alike the options of combining their coat of arms with their spouses' arms or bearing their own arms alone.

The text of a ruling by the Kings of Arms dated 29 March 2014

We, Garter, Clarenceux and Norroy & Ulster King of Arms, do rule, ordain and decree as follows:

[…]

(3) A married man will continue to have the option of bearing his own arms alone. A ruling of the Kings of Arms made on 6 November 1997 allows a married woman to bear her own arms alone differenced by a small escutcheon. That will continue to be the case but the addition of the mark of difference will forthwith be optional.

Same-sex marriages - College of Arms

 

[Madame Verseau]

With the meet and greet of the families, do you think Meghan's coat of arms will be revealed? I don't think the Markles will get a C of A because I think Tom Sr is going to turn it down. Only Meghan will get one.

Sam is trying to bigfoot into the Windsor homeless situation?