Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Why do people make such a big deal out of Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg marrying a countess when his own mother didn't come from a thousand year old family.

Stephanie doesn't appear to me at least she will make a 'better' Grand Duchess than Maria Teresa
 
Outside of the historical and traditional connections there really isn't any need for a monarchy anymore. Most of them are pretty much down to being goodwill ambassadors for their countries.


LaRae

Which underlines my point: when after the invasion of all these commoners "royals" hardly relate more to any royalty or aristocracy than you or me, the only "justification" for still having a royal family (their direct links to the nation's past, their many inter-relationships with other (former) royal families and with Europe's aristocracy. If all this is of no importance anymore, if Princess Catharina-Amalia marries a Mr Jansen from Utrecht and he becomes the father of a new fleet of "royal" offspring, it will become very hard, even for die-hard monarchists, to find any justification for funding around 100 million Euro per year to let her play "royal".
 
In Britain marriage only requires the approval of the Sovereign. Whether royal, noble or commoner, if the Sovereign agrees to the marriage it goes ahead. There has never been a rule that British royals must marry other royals.


Nevertheless,


Henry VII married Elizabeth of York.

Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon.

Mary I married Philip II of Spain .

James I married Anne of Denmark .

Charles I married Henrietta Maria of France.

Charles II married Catherine of Portugal.

James II married Mary of Modena .

Mary II married William of Orange.

Queen Anne married George of Denmark.

George II married Caroline of Ansbach.

George III married Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

George IV married Caroline of Brunswick.

William IV married Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen.

Victoria married Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha .

Edward VII married Alexandra of Denmark.

George V married Mary of Teck.

Elizabeth II married Philip of Greece and Denmark.


All consorts above, as far as I can tell, qualify as members or descendants of sovereign families, hence "royals" in the broad sense. George VI married a British noble woman who was not royal, but he wasn't the heir to throne when that happened.
 
My only point is some royal houses have laws requiring marriage to other royals. Never the case in Britain.
 
When Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg, Prince of Nassau, engaged with the daughter of the Count de Lannoy et du Saint-Empire, he married a lady whose ancestor, Françoise de Lannoy became mother-in-law to William I of Nassau, Prince of Orange. We are talking about 1551 then. The family De Lannoy has 16 (!) Knights of the Golden Fleece in its centuries long history. The present Hereditary Grand-Duchess was raised on the Château d'Anvaing, deep in green and pastoral Hainaut (Belgium). Forget all the politcal correctness, deep inside everyone understands the point I want to make and that ladies as Stéphanie de Lannnoy at least connects with the social, politcial, economical and noble history of all three Benelux-countries. And that is all what they have got. That is the only "justification" for still having a royal family: their direct and visible link with the nation's past and Europe's illustrious families. Even when this is no longer the case, than there is no any ground for a monarchy anymore. It is as simple as that.
Stephanie is a bad example IMO because she might be a nice person but she doesn't have what it needs to become a great representative of her country. No personality, no elegance, no ability to really connect with people. I don't see her adding much to the popularity of the LRF (but on the other hand she probably will never be a disgrace either). Her m-i-l, the commoner Maria Teresa, was a much better choice.

IMO Mathilde of Belgium isn't so popular because of her noble family but because of her personality. In this case everything fitted together perfectly. She has what it needs, and the family is just a bonus.

The institution can only survive as long as they are not the same as you or me.
I think that this thought is outdated.
In Spain we saw the people demanding that a born princess (the offspring of a union between 2 royal families actually) should be treated the same like everybody else. And in order to survive the institution had to go along with it.
 
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Why do people make such a big deal out of Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg marrying a countess when his own mother didn't come from a thousand year old family.

Stephanie doesn't appear to me at least she will make a 'better' Grand Duchess than Maria Teresa

If Prince Guillaume can simply marry the daughter from the local butcher in Differdange and their son on his turn will marry a mama from from Echternach, whom has a child from a former relationship with a Portuguese wallpaper-hanger, and all this does NOT matter at all, if there are no any standards anymore and the doors of the palace are wide open: the Luxembourgians will scratch under their chin and think: "Wait a minute, what are we doing here, why have we a Palais Grand-Ducal here and a Château there and bow to Monseigneur here and Son Altesse Royale there? She is just the butcher's daughter next door. Come on...! End this travesty!

When Nicholas Medforth-Mills, later Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth-Mills and now also known as Prince Nicolae of Romania marries a lady "of standing" he will automatically climb in standing too and his "claim" will only become stronger. What is it that it is allowed to jump in the air when your son or daughter comes home with a nice young man or lady studying on Harvard, with parents who have a great social standing? But when we desire standards for royal families, oh nooooooo, how dare we to insinuate that royals are more than commoners????

:ermm:
 
My only point is some royal houses have laws requiring marriage to other royals. Never the case in Britain.

Sweden had that law until not so long ago and it applied to all princes of the royal house who wanted to stay in the line of succession. The two most recent generations have now made a complete U-turn and married the Munich interpreter, the personal trainer, the glamour model, the American banker, etc. Has the Swedish monarch suffered because of that ? It's early to tell, but it doesn't seem to.
 
The problem is that a lot of people here do not separate the institution from the persons. The institution can only survive as long as they are not the same as you or me. Quote shortened

An impressive pedigree does not make you more suitable for the role as royal. History is packed with stories about royals and nobles having the most impressive pedigree but who were walking disasters. Some of them brought about the end of their dynasty.
Most of them did their very best but were never more than mediocre rulers.

A couple of hundred years ago there was good sense in what you say, because nobles and royals were better educated than the vast majority of the population, they were used to be in command from early childhood and they were familiar with the peculiar "social rituals" at a court. And they were internationally oriented.
So naturally for practical reasons spouses were found among nobles and other royals. - And I haven't even touched the economic and political reasons for marrying.

That no longer applies. The modern (European) monarchies are now a part of democracies and the standard is way different than it was just a little more than 100 years ago.
Nowadays, royals are living and life-long role models. That's a tricky balance, because if they become too aloof they lose their relevance for the public. If they become too common in their behavior they also lose their relevance.
That's why so much depends on the current royal spouses, those who are or will become consorts.

Speaking for myself, I cannot see how a royal family who is so elitist that they can only marry select families based on specific genes, can be of relevance to me in this day and age. Even going so far as to marry and spend say 50 years with a partner who they don't love, but only for the purpose of breeding genetically pure heirs!
Such people have their dynasty as their primary interest, not their country and such people cannot expect my loyalty.

The royals serve their country and they owe their position, titles, respect and privileges to the people, because they devote their entire lives to the service of their country.


Outside of the historical and traditional connections there really isn't any need for a monarchy anymore. Most of them are pretty much down to being goodwill ambassadors for their countries.


LaRae

In that you just listed one of the absolute most important roles of royals.
Joe and Jolene Average don't really care that much about the pedigree of the royals.
They like to have the monarchy because it provides an historical, cultural and national anchor, not least when the world is changing, is confusing or scary.
It's good to feel comfort in something that has always been there. Persons who are around for decades. Traditions that were enacted when you were children.
It's entertaining to follow a life-long royal soap opera.
It feels good that your royals are doing better than other royal families when they screw up.
You feel pride when your royals are doing a good job and you feel pride when your royals are more tolerant/progressive/traditional/modern/etc. than other royals.
It feels good to stand with other members of your tribe and defend your royals against members from other tribes. - Even if you deep down have to admit your own royals screwed up big time!

To look at royalty with objective eyes is to not understand what it really is about, and what it really means, nationally, historically, culturally and personally.
 
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Stephanie is a bad example IMO because she might be a nice person but she doesn't have what it needs to become a great representative of her country. No personality, no elegance, no ability to really connect with people. I don't see her adding much to the popularity of the LRF (but on the other Hand she probably will never be a disgrace either). Her m-i-l, the commoner Maria Teresa, was a much better choice.

Heu... the Tageblatt or the Luxemburger Wort describe Erbgroßherzogin Stéphanie as the Beliebtesten Mitglied, Le Quotidien writes that le Prince Guillaume et la Princesse Stéphanie jouissent d'une grande popularité but apparently "she does not have what it needs to become a great representative for her country. No personality, no elegance, no ability to really connect with people...." Wow, wow, slash! Slash! Slash! And one more stab in the back...

:eek:
 
You mean you are allowed to stab all commoners in the back, especially Sofia, Letizia...., but I am not allowed to have a critical opinion of Stephanie? Will the 16 knights of her family now haunt me?
 
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[...]
The royals serve their country and they owe their position, titles, respect and privileges to the people, because they devote their entire lives to the service of their country.
[...]

Why not make one of Denmark's war heroes King of Jutland or something? Hasn't he shown the utmost dedication to Denmark? Really, from the left and from the right things are dragged to prove that it does not matter at all. Note that all monarchical systems are delivering the head of state by hereditary succession. Usually that was ultimately and only the most important, most powerful, most illustrious family, the royal family. But I understand now it can be the butcher's daughter, a real life soap star or even the lady who reads the news every night. There is no better advert for ending all this and campaign for republicanism. It has nothing to do with elitism. If you want a monarchy anno 2015, if you want people to go down their knees and bow their head to mumble "Your Royal Highness" please... can we still expect some standing, some decorum, some dignity without all the talk about being elitist? I am willing to play the game. As long as the royals themselves stick to the rule of their very own game too.
 
What?!?

I don't know about you. But I prefer a system where people bow because they want to, because they genuinely respect the people who has a position within an institution that means something to them.

You, in contrast, apparently want people to bow to a pedigree. Their other qualifications are, I must presume, secondary to their family line?
That will be the death of the monarchies.

In my eyes, you salute the rank, not the man. The man however has to earn your respect. The same thing with monarchies.

Impressive pedigrees have not protected monarchs in the past. Monarchs have been toppled, killed, executed, blinded, imprisoned, replaced, exiled countless times in the past.
Royalty has always been a balancing act. Royals have always had to adapt to the changing times - or else...! Nothing has changed in that respect, only the conditions.

The butcher's daughter you suggest somewhat contemptuously. Why not? If she is qualified, if she is respectable, if she is made of the right stuff.
A dynasty has to start somewhere.
Being a butcher is an honest trade, many a noble family started from a much less honorable beginning.
I'll turn it around: Why should I bow to someone who earns his position due to an ancestor being a successful robber baron? While my ancestors were say honest hardworking peasants.

No, it's not the pedigree that matters, it's the institution you represent and the person you are.
 
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What has Margrethe actually done then when she became Queen of Denmark in 1972? On what any other qualification other than purely her descendance as daughter of King Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid born Princess of Sweden, as granddaughter of King Cristian X and Queen Alexandrine born Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, as great-granddaughter of King Frederik VIII and Queen Louise born Princess of Sweden, etc. etc. did she became Denmark's Queen?

When the Queen and her son suddenly die. What has Prince Christian, a young boy, done "to earn respect" to become King Christian X of Denmark? Nothing. It is purely because of who he is by his descendance. And when all this goes on and his grandparents would have been "just the Nielsens-, the Hansens-, the Pedersens- and the Jensens-next-door" then it becomes just laughable that he takes a ride in a gilded carriage to the New Year's Cour, his equal commoner spouse loaden with stunning royal jewels form Rosenborg Castle and see a Countess Wedell-Wedellsborg going down her cracking knees... come on... I am willing to go along a long way, but there are limits. Make Prime Minister Mrs Helle Thorning-Schmidt Queen of Denmark. She is as stylish as Crown Princess Mary if that is an argment...
 
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Sweden had that law until not so long ago and it applied to all princes of the royal house who wanted to stay in the line of succession. The two most recent generations have now made a complete U-turn and married the Munich interpreter, the personal trainer, the glamour model, the American banker, etc. Has the Swedish monarch suffered because of that ? It's early to tell, but it doesn't seem to.

Eh... despite all the many "happy tidings" (weddings, births, baptisms) and despite the royal family having young and glamorous Princesses and Princes and despite Sweden being "a modern monarchy" the approval rating is nothing compared with an "oldfashioned monarchy" as Britain. So we can not conclude either that the Munich interpreter, the personal trainer, the underwear model, etc. have rocketed the popularity of the Swedish monarchy. On the contrary I would say.

Monarchy is all about dignity, history ánd -of course- having a relevance to the nation. Even the most blueblooded monarchy will loose it when they have no relevance anymore. But I think you can upheld standards in a modern monarchy. Who claims that a Doña María Cristina Osorio y Malcampo, daughter of the 18th Duque de Alburquerque, Grande de España would not be more popular than Letizia Ortiz? There is no any proof for that. But the Spanish royal family would still be firmly rooted and connected with the most illustrious families, via her becoming connected with figures of great historical importance as Beltrán de la Cueva or Ambrosio Spinola. In the longer term, in modern society, this link as a living embodiment of the glorious past, is the only "justification" for maintaining a monarchy.
 
What has Margrethe actually done then when she became Queen of Denmark in 1972? On what any other qualification other than purely her descendance as daughter of King Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid born Princess of Sweden, as granddaughter of King Cristian X and Queen Alexandrine born Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, as great-granddaughter of King Frederik VIII and Queen Louise born Princess of Sweden, etc. etc. did she became Denmark's Queen?

When the Queen and her son suddenly die. What has Prince Christian, a young boy, done "to earn respect" to become King Christian X of Denmark? Nothing. It is purely because of who he is by his descendance. And when all this goes on and his grandparents would have been "just the Nielsens-, the Hansens-, the Pedersens- and the Jensens-next-door" then it becomes just laughable that he takes a ride in a gilded carriage to the New Year's Cour, his equal commoner spouse loaden with stunning royal jewels form Rosenborg Castle and see a Countess Wedell-Wedellsborg going down her cracking knees... come on... I am willing to go along a long way, but there are limits. Make Prime Minister Mrs Helle Thorning-Schmidt Queen of Denmark. She is as stylish as Crown Princess Mary if that is an argment...


Ah, I'm glad you are beginning to understand my point. :)

Well, QMII has her position because she was the firstborn and because the Constitution was changed in 1953.
But the tremendous respect people have for her, also from republicans, that is something she has earned and she has worked hard to earn that respect.
Back in 1971 only 50-60 % was in favor of the monarchy. It was a bit old fashioned, a bit irrelevant to most people. Now 75-85 % are in favor of the monarchy. The monarchy genuinely means something to people, myself included.
That change didn't come with the title. That came because QMII is so very qualified for her role and because she has dedicated her entire life to her role. - And not least because she brought up her sons well and not least because our Crown Prince found the right woman as his wife.
There have been setbacks, they have sometimes screwed up, they have sometimes made less than fortunate choices but first and foremost they are humans.
Human beings people, we the rest of the tribe, can relate to. People we respect and show respect, because we want to. Because they have earned our respect.
Each and every New Years Eve almost half the entire population watch QMII give her speech. Not because of her position, not because she can trace her lineage back more than a thousand years, but because we genuinely respect her, because we wish to learn what she has to say, because what she has to say is relevant to us and because it's part of the things that brings the tribe together.

If QMII did not possess these personal qualities backed by her lifelong dedication, she would not year after year have viewer ratings politicians can only dream about.

QMII pedigree is something we may bragg about to members of other tribes, but what really matters is what we feel about her. That she and the institution she represents is relevant to us.

Christian has not yet earned respect. That may come, or he may throw it all on the floor. Time will tell.
His father Crown Prince Frederik has earned his respect the hard way! Despite misgivings about his qualifications, despite him not being comfortable in his job and despite flaws. But he has worked for it and he is sincere, of that few are in doubt and that earns respect.
 
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Which underlines my point: when after the invasion of all these commoners "royals" hardly relate more to any royalty or aristocracy than you or me, the only "justification" for still having a royal family (their direct links to the nation's past, their many inter-relationships with other (former) royal families and with Europe's aristocracy. If all this is of no importance anymore, if Princess Catharina-Amalia marries a Mr Jansen from Utrecht and he becomes the father of a new fleet of "royal" offspring, it will become very hard, even for die-hard monarchists, to find any justification for funding around 100 million Euro per year to let her play "royal".

I wouldn't. If they want to play royal they can do so on their own money with a much smaller stipend when the government requires their presence. If the government doesn't have the money well...you can see where that will end up.


LaRae
 
While I think that most of the married-in, former commoner members of royal families are doing a great job, I do take Duc_et_Pair's point. In order to be successful long term a monarchy must have a function that can't easily be replicated by either elected government officials or celebrities. It has to be seen as unique. One of the ways royal families have done this in the past is by maintaining a sense of separation from their non-royal subjects, (including in who they were able to marry). Once the sense of exclusivity and mystery is gone it becomes easier for people to think about monarchy logically, and that's the beginning of the end, IMO, because monarchy actually doesn't make much sense in modern life.
 
You mean you are allowed to stab all commoners in the back, especially Sofia, Letizia...., but I am not allowed to have a critical opinion of Stephanie? Will the 16 knights of her family now haunt me?

Stéphanie has made an entrance in Luxembourg, according newspapers I referred to she is the most popular member of the famille grand-ducale but you slash her, not once, not two, not three but four times:

- wham! - "no suitable representative for her country"
- wham! - "no personality"
- wham! - "no elegance"
- wham! - "no ability to really connect with people"

Wow... the lady has done nothing and you already have backstabbed, crucified, beheaded and buried her as a sort of hopeless failure...

:ermm:

But my point is clear. If all this does not matter at all, the erosion of the monarchy from within is already crumbling its foundations. Why would Prince Henry of Wales marry a Lady Montagu-Douglas-Scott? Come on... pffff.... wouldn't it be spectacular to see him engaging with Her Royal Highness Princess Conchita? I believe Frau (Herr) Würst has "personality", "elegance" and possibly has "ability to really connect with people". What you want has nothing to do with centuries old monarchy. It is just celebby-dom. Take your mobile and vote for 1, for 2 or for 3 (and make chance to win a week holiday on Tenerife!).

:ermm:
 
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Muhler, thanks for explaining but I still don't get your point.

If monarchy and a royal family is what defines a country, does that mean that the countrymen don't have anything in common more than having the same monarch as head of state? What is the point being a country if the only thing that stands the country united is its royal family? Surely Danes have more in common - an history, a culture, a language - than being all Margrethe II's subjects.

You also wrote : "An impressive pedigree does not make you more suitable for the role as royal. "
Indeed, but royal are made royals by their pedigree or a wedding with someone who has a pedigree. I agree that a head of state has to earn respect and he/she can't allow himself/herself to be lazy and dictatorial. But then, a royal who has deserved the respect he earned is a royal only for he or his/her spouse has been born into a special family and has a pedigree, an history, more notorious ancestors. I don't deny at all the danish people do highly respect queen Margrethe II, but her and all her royal fellows wouldn't have even been in position to have to earn respect as a crown princess first and a queen then had she not been into a family with a special position and a special lineage. That she, as every modern royal, has to work hard to keep her position, will never obliterate that they are who they are for something they did nothing, i.e. being born in a special family.

A Margrethe Andersen, born 16th april 1940 in Copenhagen, may be a nice lady, worth knowing, dedicated to her work, her family and the poors asking her parish for help, she may have all the qualities queen Margrethe does have, she still differs from queen Margrethe II by being born into a commoner family and not having ever been in position to access the danish throne. A Margrethe Andersen may have deserved respect from her fellow countrymen as much as queen Margrethe II, she will never be watched by a whole country each and every New Year Eve, and all the difference is made by her or her spouse's lineage. That is why royals are special. It does not mean they can slack and enjoy taking advantage on the taxpayer's money. But that is the reality : their birth or the birth of their spouse has given them a special position. That goes with hereditary monarchy.
 
Many good and bad arguments. Those who decried Stephanie of Luxembourg, she is highly intelligent and her quiet personality, is who she is. It is no matter what some forbear did. Fear and money, with big swords won the day back then, which is how these regal lines came into being. Monarchies, today, are anachronistic, in Western society. Everyone (most) are literate, work, run businesses and can act as ambassadors for whatever. There are no peasants. The Royals who were left after WWI, have endeavored to be more open and many actually work. They have married "Commoners" , many more appealing than their families. They know they exist, because those they represent allow it. Although, the European monarchies are small and often delightful, you also see problems as they do in Spain and Carl Gustav's alleged philandering. But, I digress. In England you have a monarchy that has help, especially as the head is a very popular and an elderly woman, for whom all have great respect. I, believe, that will change when she is gone. You saw the people's anger at the monarchy during the Diana death. The monarchy did what the people wanted. Forget about mass hysteria or anything like that. Monarchs must follow their nation's leaders choices. They do not rule. They are window dressing. Sometimes very appealing window dressing. Many think I dislike royalty. I don't. I, too, am fascinated, by their lifestyles, and long histories. The new Princess Sophia, has taken all kinds of flack for her past. But the Bernadottes are parvenus, so to speak. Desiree Clary was a silk merchant's daughter. Jean Baptiste Bernadotte was a Marshall in Napoleon's army and a son of an lawyer from Pau, France. Their son Oscar, married the granddaughter of Josephine De Beauharnais, Napoleon's first wife. It all doesn't matter. Maxima and Matilde are now queens and are lovely and intelligent. Letizia is queen of Spain and seems to be doing a very nice job. Beatrix of Holland is a most charming woman and lives under the burden of the death of her son. They are all human. Sonja was a seamstress. Just enjoy their charm and don't let their "royal status", get in the way.
 
Eh... Monarchy is all about dignity, history ánd -of course- having a relevance to the nation.

Duc: excepting history, these can be earned. In fact, many of us quite enjoy watching the arc of a person learning dignity and earning relevance.

In general, you've been wonderfully persuasive here, let me say. You made me think.
 
They are only special in the position they hold...not their 'lineage'. Seriously no one thinks (outside of die hard monarchists, of which there are fewer as time goes on) that who their parents are make them any better than the next person. It's how they conduct their life that counts...that's what makes the difference.

People look askance when anyone who comes from a life of privilege and acts like an idiot or squanders it....doesn't matter if it's a child of a wealthy businessman or a royal family.

People will always follow the DoC because of how she connects with people and is doing her job. Not because she's able to trace her direct line back to any royal bloodline....and really some of the kings had so many bastards it's no wonder there are so many people who can actually do this....but because they like her and they like the image she projects.


LaRae
 
[....] But the Bernadottes are parvenus, so to speak. Desiree Clary was a silk merchant's daughter. Jean Baptiste Bernadotte was a Marshall in Napoleon's army and a son of an lawyer from Pau, France. [....].

But.... exactly because the Bernadottes were eh.... to use your words.... parvenus, they started with a shrewd marriage policy, everything to uplift the "nouveau riche" royal family to a most undisputed standing and great respect and dignity. Until the current King changed the strict marriage policy of the House of Bernadotte, everything was aimed to maintain the dynastical status of the Royal House. Anyone who did not wish to comply with these rules, could go. That was all in the game. You could be a Prince of Sweden, having royal privileges, great wealth but only the sun goes up for free: in return you had to submit to strict rules.

Now it seems the current royals are submitted to nothing. Prince Carl Philip does not see any harm at all in his tattoed former semi-nude photo model and former real life soap star. Isn't it all HIS life? No... it is not. In the old game he was requested to go and have a happy life with his beautiful model. But not as a Prince of Sweden. The King would simply not allow. Period. But now all Kings seems to give in. That Philippe of Belgium and Guillaume of Luxembourg have married a noble probably also has to do with their own view on who should stand next to them. Who knows?

Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg is compeletely free to marry his longtime companion Ms Carina Axelsson. Who will stop him from doing so? But hey.... there are consequences connected to that choice.... he is aware of that and it is up to him to accept these or follow his heart and bear eventual consequences. What I miss is that the Sweden's future Queen can marry the guy who helped her with her dumbells, the then future King of the Netherlands could marry the daughter of a collaborator in a war-criminal military junta, the future King of Spain simply wished to marry that beautiful lady whom told him and the Spaniards the news. There are no consequences anymore. Stamp on your feet, threat with a constitutional crisis and the parents will give in...

Now they have them. The Argentine lady. Hoppa! Buying villa's and speedboats, Gucci here, Prada there, seven vacations a year. Willem-Alexander has what he wants. His jet set lifestyle with his glamorous and so "un-Dutch" Queen. So diametrically different from his forebearers on the throne. Anwyway... we will see how the monarchies will develop. If Princess Catharina-Amalia marries Mr Jansen-from-next-door in Utrecht, the very real core and fundamental question will pop up what their child, a Jansen, eh... no, a Van Amsberg, eh... no, the name is "Van Oranje-Nassau" please... still has which defines her as a most royalborn person, for whom the National Anthem will be played, the regimental standards will bow down and Ladies-of-the-Court will go down their knees.... "Your Royal Highness...." Everyone feels in his/her bones that this is a very existential point. Period. But tja... political correctness.... Pffff....

:ermm:
 
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They are only special in the position they hold...not their 'lineage'. Seriously no one thinks (outside of die hard monarchists, of which there are fewer as time goes on) that who their parents are make them any better than the next person. It's how they conduct their life that counts...that's what makes the difference.

People look askance when anyone who comes from a life of privilege and acts like an idiot or squanders it....doesn't matter if it's a child of a wealthy businessman or a royal family.

People will always follow the DoC because of how she connects with people and is doing her job. Not because she's able to trace her direct line back to any royal bloodline....and really some of the kings had so many bastards it's no wonder there are so many people who can actually do this....but because they like her and they like the image she projects.


LaRae

It is not a matter of being a better person. I have met a few aristocrats in my life. Some of them are people I do not count as friends as they are everything I don't like in people and they actually think they are marvellous for their name begins with or includes one (or more) "de" and their parents and grands-parents had some money. Other are marvellous people I am glad to know and who have humans qualities I value, and what makes me being their friend is not special to them as my other friends have it.

But if it was only the way royals are conducting their lives that would make them special, why don't have monarchies a regular competition to allow every citizens with qualities to compete for becoming the next generation of royals? It would make very little difference with several republican countries with republican dynasties (and I count my own country in these ones).

Royal are not better persons than you and me. They are different with you and me for they are born in a different family. That does not make them better. That gives them better opportunities in life, for sure. That puts them into position to show their skills and inner gifts. That puts them into a difficult position if they don't feel relational. Being born a royal won't even led them straight in Paradise after their death whatever they may have done in their life. It gives privileges, advantages, a position, burdens, and happily royal can choose to lead a royal life or not. The difference between them and me is not bigger. It still is a difference.
Two people being different does not imply one is better than the other. But it looks as if our times fear at the utmost the main idea of people being different one from another.

(And if you ask me, I wouldn't like at all being a royal. It would be to much of a burden.)
 
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Duc ....Just goes to point out that not even the royals believe their own press.......so why shouldn't they marry anyone they like?



LaRae
 
It is not a matter of being a better person. I have met a few aristocrats in my life. Some of them are people I do not count as friends as they are everything I don't like in people and they actually think they are marvellous for their name begins with or includes one (or more) "de" and their parents and grands-parents had some money. Other are marvellous people I am glad to know and who have humans qualities I value, and what makes me being their friend is not special to them as my other friends have it.

But if it was only the way royals are conducting their lives that would make them special, why don't have monarchies a regular competition to allow every citizens with qualities to compete for becoming the next generation of royals? It would make very little difference with several republican countries with republican dynasties (and I count my own country in these ones).

Royal are not better persons than you and me. They are different with you and me for they are born in a different family. That does not make them better. That gives them better opportunities in life, for sure. That puts them into position to show their skills and inner gifts. That puts them into a difficult position if they don't feel relational. Being born a royal won't even led them straight in Paradise after their death whatever they may have done in their life. It gives privileges, advantages, a position, burdens, and happily royal can choose to lead a royal life or not. The difference between them and me is not bigger. It still is a difference. But it looks as if our times fear at utmost the main idea of people being different one from another.

(And if you ask me, I wouldn't like at all being a royal. It would be to much of a burden.)

Well in a sense they are having a contest...they bring in 'non-royals' via marriage. No one is fighting it out ala The Hunger Games ...but when the royals are picking their spouses amongst the masses there is some informal competition there.

No, in general I wouldn't want to be a royal either, in some families (some have a lot more interest than others) it would be a nightmare. Others it might not be too bad. Still...the more you are given the more is expected.


LaRae
 
While I think that most of the married-in, former commoner members of royal families are doing a great job, I do take Duc_et_Pair's point. In order to be successful long term a monarchy must have a function that can't easily be replicated by either elected government officials or celebrities. It has to be seen as unique. One of the ways royal families have done this in the past is by maintaining a sense of separation from their non-royal subjects, (including in who they were able to marry). Once the sense of exclusivity and mystery is gone it becomes easier for people to think about monarchy logically, and that's the beginning of the end, IMO, because monarchy actually doesn't make much sense in modern life.


A few coments are in order.

First, support for the monarchy in modern European countries does not come from a special reverence to the royal family or their "pedigree", nor does it come from a belief that the monarch is entitled to his/her position by divine right. Instead, people and especially politicians support the monarchy because the system works well. It provides a clear separation between the partisan government and the non-partisan ceremonial role of head of state, and it ensures stability by highlighting the continuity of the state above the transient nature of party politics. Changing to a republican form of government is clearly not worth the risk in countries like Denmark, Britain, Norway, Sweden or the Netherlands for example.

Second, in European monarchies at least, the law vests the royal succession in the legitimate descendants of a particular family or of a particular person. People who marry into those families are vetted, usually by the monarch together with the government or the parliament depending on the country. If the government and/or parliament do not consent to a royal marriage, the person who is getting married is excluded from the succession line along with all his/her descendants. If, on the other hand, the marriage is approved and is legal, the succession rights of any descendants of that union are ensured by law, irrespective of the background of the consort. There is no legal basis to say then that the "pedigree" of one's mother or father either boosts or lowers one's claim to the throne or place in the line of succession provided that the person in question was born in a valid royal marriage.


Third, most people don't really care nowadays if a royal consort is a commoner or a member of the nobility. What matters is that, after the marriage, he/she performs his/her official duties well and commit his/her life to public service, which is what is now expected from the royals. I can't possibly imagine that politicians will be" less inclined to fund the royal family" because royals are now marrying commoners, nor do I believe voters will be less inclined to support the monarchy for the same reason. There is actually no statistical or factual evidence that I know of which supports that claim.

Finally, foreign observers who do not live in countries that are monarchies, especially Americans, need to understand that, when one talks about state funding of royal families, most of it is actually state funding of the office of head of state (not unlike funding a president) , security, and support for official duties carried out by other members of the royal house such as the monarch's consort and the heir apparent (family members who do not carry out official duties are generally not funded). The "luxury" associated with monarchies is mostly either the royal family's private wealth (like private jewel collections) or state assets that are at the disposal of the RF to perform their duties of ceremonial representation of the state. Many of those state assets BTW, such as royal palaces, art, regalia, or certain pieces of jewelley, were actually transferred in the past from private ownership of the RF to the state in exchange for tax exemptions or other similar deals.
 
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Now they have them. The Argentine lady. Hoppa! Buying villa's and speedboats, Gucci here, Prada there, seven vacations a year. Willem-Alexander has what he wants. His jet set lifestyle with his glamorous and so "un-Dutch" Queen. So diametrically different from his forebearers on the throne. Anwyway... we will see how the monarchies will develop. If Princess Catharina-Amalia marries Mr Jansen-from-next-door in Utrecht, the very real core and fundamental question will pop up what their child, a Jansen, eh... no, a Van Amsberg, eh... no, the name is "Van Oranje-Nassau" please... still has which defines her as a most royalborn person, for whom the National Anthem will be played, the regimental standards will bow down and Ladies-of-the-Court will go down their knees.... "Your Royal Highness...." Everyone feels in his/her bones that this is a very existential point. Period. But tja... political correctness.... Pffff....

:ermm:

What utter nonsense. The royal WA bought these boats and villa's, the royal Bernhard zur Lippe bought a lot of flashy things that I am sure Juliana never had a hand in. The king of the Belgians bought a flashy helicopter -despite having a noble wife. And his wife does wear Armani. Numerous other royals and nobles are or were flashy. Likewise, there are many, many sophisticated untitled people who despite having the money do not spend it on luxery brands or flashy things. You are making a charicature out of the issue and out of people.

The logic that you are using is absurd and is offensive to anybody who is not noble or royal. You are basically calling all commoners -the vast, vast majority of the world population - vulgar, or potentially vulgar but lacking the funds to give in to their urges to buy speedboats and Gucci. I assume you are not noble or royal yourself? So would this (potential) vulgarity also count for you? Or just for the rest of us? Or just for those commoners who dare to marry a blue blood? Or just for Argentinians?

If Catharina-Amalia would marry a baron van Voorst tot Voorst, the same issue with the last name would occur as you described. Since passing the surname Orange-Nassau in the female line has been normal in The Netherlands since 1901, I am sure very few others will have problems in using the correct last name for the RF though.
 
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Muhler, thanks for explaining but I still don't get your point.

If monarchy and a royal family is what defines a country, does that mean that the countrymen don't have anything in common more than having the same monarch as head of state? What is the point being a country if the only thing that stands the country united is its royal family? Surely Danes have more in common - an history, a culture, a language - than being all Margrethe II's subjects.

You also wrote : "An impressive pedigree does not make you more suitable for the role as royal. "
Indeed, but royal are made royals by their pedigree or a wedding with someone who has a pedigree. I agree that a head of state has to earn respect and he/she can't allow himself/herself to be lazy and dictatorial. But then, a royal who has deserved the respect he earned is a royal only for he or his/her spouse has been born into a special family and has a pedigree, an history, more notorious ancestors. I don't deny at all the danish people do highly respect queen Margrethe II, but her and all her royal fellows wouldn't have even been in position to have to earn respect as a crown princess first and a queen then had she not been into a family with a special position and a special lineage. That she, as every modern royal, has to work hard to keep her position, will never obliterate that they are who they are for something they did nothing, i.e. being born in a special family.

A Margrethe Andersen, born 16th april 1940 in Copenhagen, may be a nice lady, worth knowing, dedicated to her work, her family and the poors asking her parish for help, she may have all the qualities queen Margrethe does have, she still differs from queen Margrethe II by being born into a commoner family and not having ever been in position to access the danish throne. A Margrethe Andersen may have deserved respect from her fellow countrymen as much as queen Margrethe II, she will never be watched by a whole country each and every New Year Eve, and all the difference is made by her or her spouse's lineage. That is why royals are special. It does not mean they can slack and enjoy taking advantage on the taxpayer's money. But that is the reality : their birth or the birth of their spouse has given them a special position. That goes with hereditary monarchy.


Great points. :flowers:

Of course we have more in common than merely the monarchy. However keep in mind that we Danes are a tribe, so the leading family of our tribe is important. That family has to be an integral part of the tribe.
It's not someone who live in a palace far away or who ride past once in a while. The royal family lives, so to speak, within our village. Physically interacting with us on a day to day basis. The distance between us and them is not far, because that's how it works within a tribe or a village.
That means we see them up close, and they see us up close. We know them, literally. And that means we respect them and show respect and close our eyes for some of the mistakes they sometimes make and close ranks around them when members of other tribes dare to criticize them.
But... But if they don't interact with the tribe, if they become aloof, if they become too elitist they sign themselves out. - I live in a village in the real world, you are either a part of the community, or you are not.

That's why personality matters before pedigree. Because we, the tribe, know perfectly well who you are, we know perfectly well about your background.

On top of that our royals have been wise (IMO) enough to almost always having chosen an outsider as consort. That means our new "daughter-in-law" is welcomed by the tribe. And we will get to know her, oh yes! If she assimilates and work for us and show her loyalty for the tribe, we will give her protection, acceptance, respect, loyalty and comfort in return. If she fails, she will remain an outsider. (Just see how PH did. he has only recently been tolerated rather than accepted by the tribe).
That means that it is the personality and the character that matters. No pedigree, however impressive it may be, will help her, if the tribe doesn't accept her.

This I believe is the best way to really understand how a monarchy works, at least in a small nation.

Then there is the institution of monarchy, the first family so to speak.
It works very much because the life of a royal belongs to the state from birth to death. That means life long dedication to your country, because there really isn't much else you can do. And you might just as well try and do your best, because it won't get better and you'll get a lot of heat if you don't. Also, most don't want to let their family (and tribe) down.
You look at the portraits of your predecessors, that must be pretty daunting! So you'd better do your very best not to fail them and the institution they represented.
It's an institution that has been around for a long time and that creates a lot of inertia and it leaves behind a large cultural and historical wake. Something that has become deeply rooted in the fabric of a nation.

What are the alternatives?
An elected head of state. Sitting for determined period and often defined by the person. To be replaced by someone and sometimes something completely new. Fine, but less deeply rooted.
Also as QMII obeserved, if she had been elected she would always be aware that there would be some who hadn't voted for her. She isn't elected, so that's it.
A celebrity or a celeb-family as a kind of pseudo-royals? Yeah, but will it work for generatio after generation? Not to mention that inevitable oblivion or unpopularity awaits practically all celebs.

But let's return to pedigree for a while.
If we were to maintain the monarchies on the condition that the pedigree is right, then we ought to abolish them IMO.
Firstly because pedigree is no guarantee for success. Look at Princess Diana. First class pedigree, marriage was a disaster. - For all sorts of reason of course, but one of them no doubt being that she did not want to accept that her marriage was primarily for dynastic reasons. That her job was to give birth to heirs, smile and turn a blind eye to the fact that her husband wasn't genuinely in love with her.
Forgive me if I sound naive, but I believe royals have the right to at least try and be happy as well. To marry for love and take their chances like the rest of us. Because marriage is hard work!

Secondly, are we to demand of a crownprince/ss that he/she cannot marry the one he loves? Not because she/he is not qualified, not because there is something wrong with her character, not because she has an unfortunate past - but because her pedigree simply isn't exclusive enough?!?

Well, we would see a multitude of otherwise prime royal material standing in line to opt out! Who would remain? Those who are lucky enough to fall in love with a noble person with just the right bloodline and the less suitable... Those we probably really wouldn't have as first choice anyway. :ermm: The snobs, the indifferent, the ambitious (I wanna be king regardless) and the less endowed.
Hurrah, eh? But they would all have an impressive pedigree...

We are of course all a result of our environment. Margrethe Andersen may never have appeard on TV, but she might have been happy as an archeologist and perhaps met an artistic Frenchman. Had two sons, one of whom married an Australian and settled in Sydney with their four children.
But QMII was born royal, so for her Destiny Oblige.
 
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What?!?

I don't know about you. But I prefer a system where people bow because they want to, because they genuinely respect the people who has a position within an institution that means something to them.

In my eyes, you salute the rank, not the man. The man however has to earn your respect. The same thing with monarchies.



The butcher's daughter you suggest somewhat contemptuously. Why not? If she is qualified, if she is respectable, if she is made of the right stuff.
A dynasty has to start somewhere.
Being a butcher is an honest trade, many a noble family started from a much less honorable beginning.
I'll turn it around: Why should I bow to someone who earns his position due to an ancestor being a successful robber baron? While my ancestors were say honest hardworking peasants.

No, it's not the pedigree that matters, it's the institution you represent and the person you are.
Clipped some of the quote. But, Bravo! And, Brava! Reading some posts, but not all, has made me so angry. This is one that has calmed me down some.

And, no, nothing I'm saying is being "politically correct". I'm speaking my own feelings, and I'm the only one who has the right to say what I truly feel.
 
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