Letters Patent Issued (Dec 31, 2012): All Cambridge Children to be Princes/Princesses

[Lumutqueen]

According to twitter The Queen issued new letters patent today granting the title Prince or Princess to the future sons or daughters of The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

I personally thought this deserved a new thread, but it can be moved to the pregnancy thread perhaps.

The patent reads

'all the children of the eldest son of the POW should have and enjoy the style, title and attribute of Royal Highness with the titular dignity of Prince and Princess prefixed to their Christian names'

https://twitter.com/RE_DailyMail

 

[Artemisia]

An expected move but pleasant birthday "surprise" for the Duchess nonetheless.
Edit: the Letters Patent are actually dated 31.12.2012 and were issued on the same day via the London Gazette.

 

[branchg]

Makes sense given the change to equal succession rights regardless of gender beginning with William and Catherine's descendants.

 

[principessa]

A nice birthday present for HRH The Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[TLLK]

I agree that a new Letters Patent would be required due to the upcoming changes in the succession laws. Prior to the new letter only the eldest grandson of the PoW would be given HRH Prince ____ status.

 

[Artemisia]

I think even if no changes had been planned, the Letters Patent would have still been issued.
It was always almost a certainty the children of the Duke of Cambridge - Heir Apparent to the Heir Apparent - would not be "mere" Lords and Ladies.

 

[Princess Luna]

...new letters patent today granting the title Prince or Princess to the future sons or daughters of The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. https://twitter.com/RE_DailyMail

...as they should be

 

[An Ard Ri]

An expected move but pleasant birthday "surprise" for the Duchess nonetheless.
Edit: the Letters Patent are actually dated 31.12.2012 and were issued on the same day via the London Gazette.

I agree Artemisia,its good news especially as its Kate's birthday!

 

[branchg]

I think even if no changes had been planned, the Letters Patent would have still been issued.
It was always almost a certainty the children of the Duke of Cambridge - Heir Apparent to the Heir Apparent - would not be "mere" Lords and Ladies.

It is consistent with prior practice. George VI issued Letters Patent in 1948 granting the style of HRH Prince/Princess to Elizabeth's future children since she was heiress presumptive. Victoria issued Letters Patent in 1898 elevating The Duke of York's children to HRH as children of the eldest son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales.

George V limited the 1898 Letters Patent grant to the eldest son only when he issued the 1917 Letters Patent, but now The Queen has restored the provision to all the children.

 

[Dman]

This is a beautiful gift to Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge on her Birthday. I bet it made William & Catherine smile even more on this day.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I looked but could not find it in the Royal Gazette. Does anyone know the category/subcategory under which this would be posted?

For Harry Potter fans though, on Jan 4 a notice was printed (under the "other: category) to search for Tom Riddle. I am not kidding.

Found it - Here it is in entirety:
Date: 8 January 2013 Issue Number: 60384 Page number: 213 Publication Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013
Notice Code: 1108
Crown Office
House of Lords, London SW1A 0PW
31 December 2012
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 31 December 2012 to declare that all the children of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales should have and enjoy the style, title and attribute of Royal Highness with the titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their Christian names or with such other titles of honour.

C I P Denyer

(1738680)

Read more: Search Results
​

 

[hkittybaby]

BBC News - Royal baby girl 'would be princess'

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Great news and entirely expected.
I wonder does the Queen know something we don't, although its not really much of a surprise.

 

[hkittybaby]

I wonder does the Queen know something we don't, although its not really much of a surprise.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Rebafan81]

I was happy to see this, but will the children outrank their mother who is a "mere" Duchess?
Also, I would love to see HM do this for Prince Harry when he marries, like it was for Andrews children.

 

[Kataryn]

What do you mean by that?

I guess we all realise that the Cambridges already know if it is going to be a child or twins. Not sure about the gender, though. That can be tricky and I can't remember from which week onwards you could tell of the "little difference" for sure. But they know and then surely HM and Prince Charles know if it's going to be one or two babies.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I was happy to see this, but will the children outrank their mother who is a "mere" Duchess?
Also, I would love to see HM do this for Prince Harry when he marries, like it was for Andrews children.

You do know that Catherine is not a mere Duchess, she is a Princess but as Prince William is now known as The Duke of Cambridge, his wife is now known as The Duchess of Cambridge.

Well if Henry has children while The Queen lives, then she probably will. However personally I think Henry will have children in the reign of his father so new LPs aren't necessary.

 

[Kataryn]

I was happy to see this, but will the children outrank their mother who is a "mere" Duchess?
Also, I would love to see HM do this for Prince Harry when he marries, like it was for Andrews children.

Their mother isn't a "mere duchess", she is a Royal duchess, meaning that her husband, the prince, was elevated to the rank of Royal duke before his wedding, thus she as his wife is both a princess and a Royal duchess, but only used the higher title of duchess. But of course Catherine is HRH Princess William of Wales in addition to being HRH The Duchess of Cambridge.

Prince/Princess is a courtesy title for relatives of the souverain in male-line while a Royal peerage is a "real" peerage, thus higher ranking than a mere courtesy title.

 

[Dman]

Very true, Catherine is a Princess by marriage.

 

[Artemisia]

I looked but could not find it in the Royal Gazette. Does anyone know the category/subcategory under which this would be posted?

For Harry Potter fans though, on Jan 4 a notice was printed (under the "other: category) to search for Tom Riddle. I am not kidding.

The PDF file and the announcement in the London Gazette.

 

[Dman]

Queen issues formal decree to guarantee princess title if Duchess of Cambridge has a girl - Telegraph

 

[Kit]

Wait a moment it says "all the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". Does this Letters Patent then only apply to Prince William's children or automatically also to future generations like his grandchildren?

 

[Artemisia]

...
George V limited the 1898 Letters Patent grant to the eldest son only when he issued the 1917 Letters Patent, but now The Queen has restored the provision to all the children.

The change is or William's children only though, isn't it? That is to say, in future the younger children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales would still not be Princes and Princesses or Royal Highnesses until and unless new Letters Patent are issued.

While we are there, I have always found the wording of the 1917 Letters Patent interesting.: if the Heir Apparent hasn't been created The Prince of Wales and is still the Duke of Cornwall, then does that mean his eldest son will not be a Prince? I assume the Prince of Wales clause was added for the eldest son of the Heir Apparent who is not the Sovereign's eldest surviving son himself.

 

[Kit]

I also think this applies specifically to Prince William's children.It could get quite complicated in the future if the Equal Primogeniture gets through and William and Kate have a daughter followed by a younger brother.


When Prince William is created the Prince of Wales with his eldest child being a daughter his grandchildren would not bear the title Prince/Princess unless a new LP would be issued.
But what about his grandchildren through his eldest son ? They would bear the title.

 

[Princess Luna]

If they having a girl, will she be Princess of Wales or Cambrigde?

 

[Artemisia]

Depends on when William's daughter is born.
- If the girl is born during the current reign, she'll be Princess Name of Cambridge.
- If she is born during Charles' reign but before William is created The Prince of Wales, she'll be Princess Name of Cornwall and Cambridge.
- If she is born during Charles' reign and after William is created The Prince of Wales, she'll be Princess Name of Wales.
- If she is born during William's own reign, she'll be The Princess Name.

A girl to William and Kate can be a Princess of Wales only in one case: if she becomes one in her own right. Technically speaking, there is actually no law forbidding a woman to be a Princess of Wales in her own right; if William's first-born is a girl and she becomes Heiress Apparent in due course (once the proposed Equal Primogeniture laws are adopted), then when William becomes King, he can create his eldest daughter and heiress The Princess of Wales.

Wait a moment it says "all the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales". Does this Letters Patent then only apply to Prince William's children or automatically also to future generations like his grandchildren?

I'm pretty sure only the children of the eldest son of the current Prince of Wales are meant.

The Letters Patent applies only to William's children. If William's grandchildren are born during the Queen's reign (highly improbable but theoretically possible), then they would not be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses unless new Letters Patent are issued. If William's grandchildren are born during Charles' reign, they would also not be entitled to princely title and style of a Royal Highness, again unless new Letters Patent are issued (which, if this scenario were to take place, is extremely likely).

 

[hkittybaby]

The Queen declares future Royal daughter of Duke and Duchess will be a Princess! (But we still don't know if it will be a boy or a girl) | Mail Online

 

[Stefan]

I'm pretty sure only the children of the eldest son of the current Prince of Wales are meant.

The Letters Patent applies only to William's children. If William's grandchildren are born during the Queen's reign (highly improbable but theoretically possible), then they would not be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses unless new Letters Patent are issued. If William's grandchildren are born during Charles' reign, they would also not be entitled to princely title and style of a Royal Highness, again unless new Letters Patent are issued (which, if this scenario were to take place, is extremely likely).

I don't think so. It would have to be stated to this effect. If during Charles reign William becames a grandfather through this oldest son then hid children would be affected by this Letters patent as then he is the Prince of Wales (if he is created as such).
The Letters Patent doesn't say that only the children of the oldest son of the present Prince of Wales are meant.

 

[Sister Morphine]

The change is or William's children only though, isn't it? That is to say, in future the younger children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales would still not be Princes and Princesses or Royal Highnesses until and unless new Letters Patent are issued.

While we are there, I have always found the wording of the 1917 Letters Patent interesting.: if the Heir Apparent hasn't been created The Prince of Wales and is still the Duke of Cornwall, then does that mean his eldest son will not be a Prince? I assume the Prince of Wales clause was added for the eldest son of the Heir Apparent who is not the Sovereign's eldest surviving son himself.

I'm not sure, but I would be comfortable in speculating that this is going to be the norm from now on, seeing as equal primogeniture has been adopted. From the wording of the document, it sounded to me like in the future, all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales will be HRH Prince/Princess, instead of just the eldest son being HRH Prince ______. As for your second question, if William is the Duke of Cornwall but not yet the Prince of Wales, that means his father is King and as such, all of his kids, as grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, will be HRH Prince/Princess regardless. The 1917 Letters Patent no longer apply. George V wanted to downsize the number of people who carried the HRH Prince/Princess title (and did away with great-grandchildren in the male line being HH Prince/Princess), so it was limited to just those in direct line to the throne; the children of the sovereign, the grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line, and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

If they having a girl, will she be Princess of Wales or Cambrigde?

Seeing as the Queen doesn't appear to be on her deathbed, the child will be born during the current reign. Thus, the baby would be HRH Prince/Princess _____ of Cambridge. The senior most title is what the children would carry. If the Queen did not make him a duke on his wedding day, they would be "of Wales" as that would be his only title. When the Queen dies, and William immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall, that child and any other children they'd have at that point, would become HRH Prince/Princess ________ of Cornwall and Cambridge, with Cornwall as the senior most title coming first. Then if William is made Prince of Wales, they'd be HRH Prince/Princess ______ of Wales, just like William and Harry were when they were born.

 

[EIIR]

A necessary bit of housekeeping from HM. I think 'Prince George of Cambridge' sounds quite nice.