King George VI (1895-1952)

[Curryong]

That is a totally spurious suggested that was peddled by a supposed Royal biographer, Lady Colin Campbell. No proof whatsoever. In fact I've read letters written by the Duke of York to his young wife in the 1920s in which he writes about picturing 'a little figure all alone in a big bed', when he was on royal duties abroad by himself.

That furphy leapt on by Lady Colin may have arisen because it was a long time before the couple had their first child (nearly three years.) However, possible low fertility has nothing to do with the number of times a week a couple are intimate.

 

[Denville]

I just began reading "The Reluctant King" by Sarah Bradford. I have made it to the part where Prince Albert (King George VI) and Elizabeth have decorated The Royal Lodge. It discussed how he decorated his bedroom and how she decorated her bedroom. At this point in their marriage they are still a young couple, married about 10 years. I have a question that is probably naive: why separate bedrooms?

as others have said, most upper class couples of that time had separate bedrooms and also separate dressing rooms.

Not only was it very common among the upper class, apparently Cookie wasn't very fond of "certain aspects of married life".

Evidence??? and who is "Cookie"? the only person who called her that was the Duchess of Windsor. Her correct title at the time of Marriage was Duchess of York and afterwards she was the queen.

a long time before the couple had their first child (nearly three years.) However, possible low fertility has nothing to do with the number of times a week a couple are intimate.

I think that their small family was alos to do with some gynae problems. IIRC botht daughters were born by Caesaraian.. so problaby that is why they stopped at 2 children and didn't try for a boy..

 

[Zonk]

As previously stated, separate bedrooms was very common by the upper class. If I recall correctly, even the Windsor's had separate bedrooms. And it was noted in Downton Abbey (okay, it is a fictional show) but it was noted in season 1 or so how odd it was that the Earl and Cora shared a bedroom since that wasn't the norm. Maybe Mary said it while/before marrying Matthew?

I have known two of my friends parents who have haveseparate bedrooms. The first in high school, I was shocked as I had never seen such a thing. They literally filed for divorce within a year of their daughter graduating highschool. They were staying together for her (she was the youngest). And another college friend whose parents sleep in separate rooms because of sleep habits. They are/were devoted to each other. The mother has dementia now and lives in assisted living and the father visits her every day. Its quite sad.

But back to George and Elizabeth. Either way, I have never heard anything about their being no passion in the York marriage but back than, people didn't discuss that sort of thing. At least not publically or at least not Bertie. He was quite the anamoly of the brothers. George of Kent, Harry of Gloucester and Edward VIII all had interesting personal lives before and/after they married. And Bertie of was quite boring compared to them. And honestly there is much more to discuss about the couple than their sleeping arrangements i.e. their courtship, the Abdication, his reign, the war, the relationship between the couple and their daughters, the Windsors, etc.!

I have also never heard anything about not trying for a 3rd child because of delivery complications. But lest not forget, no one ever thought that Elizabeth of York would become Queen. It wasn't until Wallis appeared on the scene that the dream of Edward marrying and producing a heir died.

And I wouldn't believe anything Lady Colin Campbell says...she has quite the imagination.

 

[Denville]

I think it is a reasonable assumption. If both children were delivered by Caesarian at that time, it was big operation and doctors didn't recommend doing it too often.
I don't think that anyone had great hopes of Edward marrying, by the late 1920s.. He seemed to be settled into a bachelor life...

 

[Zonk]

An assumption but not fact. Just, speculative.

And not to thread jack but people didn't lose hope of Edward marrying a respectable woman until the death of King George V. They were definitely hoping he would meet a nice woman while he was seeing Lady Thelma Furness and Freda Dudley Ward.

The establishment certainly didn't see Wallis coming nor did the family. From the books that I have read regarding the Abdication, specificaly the night of Edward's speech to the nation...they didn't actually think he would do until he did it. I think both Bertie and Elizabeth were in the dark.

 

[Queen Claude]

Lady Colin Campbell is the only source that I am aware of regarding that claim about the Queen Mother and I concur that the claim should be taken with a huge grain of salt if not dismissed outright. But even if such a notion was accepted, her husband continued to be besotted with her throughout their marriage.

I recall in a documentary about the Queen Mother that after Margaret's birth that "there would be no more babies". While it was not said outright, I concluded that she may have had a hysterectomy after Margaret's birth.

I think that people in the know probably thought that there was a reasonable chance that Bertie (or Elizabeth) would succeed Edward. Edward not only dated married women but they tended to be in his age range, actually Thelma Furness was 10 years younger, but still this was a man in his 40s when he succeeded with an established mistress, so the best hope would be that the relationship with Wallis would run its course and then he would perhaps meet a single woman in her twenties or a widow in her thirties, but again given Edward's proclivities I don't know if those close to the situation thought the odds of either happening were favorable. Also all of Edward's siblings had married and four of the siblings had children so the succession was secured.

The Duke of York, the future George VI, was aware that steps were being taken to get his brother to get rid of Wallis or abdicate, perhaps he was not kept in the loop once things were underway in earnest, but he was visited by Edward's private secretary (in October I think) and after that meeting wrote in his journal something along the lines that he would do his best to clean up the mess that would undoubtedly result if his brother abdicated.

 

[Denville]

I don't think that Bertie and the others would have had high hopes of Edw "making a sutiable match and having heirs"..
Just they didn't imagine his setting up with a woman like Wallis for life or considering abdication if he could not marry this woman.
But I think that they problaby realised he wasn't into "marrying a well bred girl who woudl give him heirs." He generally liked mature women, and preferred i think to enjoy family life in a surrogate way. He was very fond of Freda DW's daughters.. and he didn't seem to show much inclination for finding a girl of suitable class and age, and marrying her. So I think that Bertie and Eliz felt that it was on the cards that they woudl succeed to the throne one day or that their daughters would be the royal heirs...

 

[Tsaritsa]

I don't think that Bertie and the others would have had high hopes of Edw "making a sutiable match and having heirs"..
Just they didn't imagine his setting up with a woman like Wallis for life or considering abdication if he could not marry this woman.
But I think that they problaby realised he wasn't into "marrying a well bred girl who woudl give him heirs." He generally liked mature women, and preferred i think to enjoy family life in a surrogate way. He was very fond of Freda DW's daughters.. and he didn't seem to show much inclination for finding a girl of suitable class and age, and marrying her. So I think that Bertie and Eliz felt that it was on the cards that they woudl succeed to the throne one day or that their daughters would be the royal heirs...

It has also been mooted that a serious bout of prepubescent mumps led to orchitis which left Edward sterile. It's alleged that George and Mary were aware that this was a possibility. It would explain his 'boyishness' -the soft, pink, and relatively hairless skin. A disease which retards sexual growth, may also be responsible for retarding physical, emotional, and intellectual growth. His childish 'love' letters to both Freda and Wallis are not those of a mature man.

 

[Denville]

its alos been mooted that Edw had a few illegitimate children...

 

[Tsaritsa]

its alos been mooted that Edw had a few illegitimate children...

Mumps and orchitis is verified by Philip Ziegler in his "King Edward VIII" biography.

 

[Ish]

Edward has only allegedly had illegitimate children - none were acknowledged or ever verified in any way

 

[duchessrachel]

Still common in upper classes at that time, and they changed even slower.

The Queen and PP still do this to some extent.

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[duchessrachel]

Lady Colin Campbell is the only source that I am aware of regarding that claim about the Queen Mother and I concur that the claim should be taken with a huge grain of salt if not dismissed outright. But even if such a notion was accepted, her husband continued to be besotted with her throughout their marriage.

.

I agree about that book. I am ashamed to say I read it and the only sources I remember Lady Colin Campbell mentioning were her mother-in-law and the Duke of Windsor, as well as sources that didn't want to be named. I know that there are some reputable books that use some unnamed sources, but in Lady Colin Campbell's case I take those to be her imagination. I don't know anything about her Mother-in-Law but it seemed like jealousy to me. As far as the Duke of Windsor is concerned, I don't believe him. He was a self-centered, narcissistic, shallow man who I don't regard as a reputable source. The reason the separate bedrooms confused me was because of the fact that Prince Albert (King George VI) was infatuated with Elizabeth their whole marriage, just like you said. I can't imagine that would be the case if she had denied him the physical side of the relationship. I just did not realize that it was common place to have separate bedrooms in the upper classes. I read the authorized biography on her and it revealed that she had had colon cancer ( I think ) at one point and had to have surgery. Since gynecological matters were not discussed by people in that generation it is very well possible that she had a hysterectomy that has not been revealed.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I agree about that book. I am ashamed to say I read it and the only sources I remember Lady Colin Campbell mentioning were her mother-in-law and the Duke of Windsor, as well as sources that didn't want to be named. I know that there are some reputable books that use some unnamed sources, but in Lady Colin Campbell's case I take those to be her imagination. I don't know anything about her Mother-in-Law but it seemed like jealousy to me. As far as the Duke of Windsor is concerned, I don't believe him. He was a self-centered, narcissistic, shallow man who I don't regard as a reputable source. The reason the separate bedrooms confused me was because of the fact that Prince Albert (King George VI) was infatuated with Elizabeth their whole marriage, just like you said. I can't imagine that would be the case if she had denied him the physical side of the relationship. I just did not realize that it was common place to have separate bedrooms in the upper classes. I read the authorized biography on her and it revealed that she had had colon cancer ( I think ) at one point and had to have surgery. Since gynecological matters were not discussed by people in that generation it is very well possible that she had a hysterectomy that has not been revealed.

I read, and it may VERY well be apocryphal, that there was a delay in proclaiming Elizabeth as Queen until it was certain that the Queen Mother wasn't pregnant! I offer no opinion on this.

 

[RCBadger]

I read, and it may VERY well be apocryphal, that there was a delay in proclaiming Elizabeth as Queen until it was certain that the Queen Mother wasn't pregnant! I offer no opinion on this.

I've also read that. I believe it was in the book "Royal Feud."

 

[Queen Claude]

LOL, I wonder how they would have figured that out, would some poor sap be dispatched to query the newly-widowed, fifty-one year old dowager?

Actually I think the Queen's proclamation did take place on February 6, the same date her father died, but the public proclamation happened a couple days later after Elizabeth returned to England from Kenya

 

[Biri]

I read, and it may VERY well be apocryphal, that there was a delay in proclaiming Elizabeth as Queen until it was certain that the Queen Mother wasn't pregnant! I offer no opinion on this.

I read it too; in "Royal Romances. Titillating Tales of Passion and Power in the Palaces of Europe" by Leslie Carroll.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I've also read that. I believe it was in the book "Royal Feud."

YES!!! Indeed it was. Well done and thank-you to both you and Biri for reassuring me that I'm not losing it...............yet.

 

[padams2359]

Lady? Colin Campbell was married for about 15 minutes in the 60s or 70s to Campbell, but she has been using that name ever since. She? has always been on Wallis’s side against the royal family. I wouldnt believe her if she said the sky was blue and the grass was green.

 

[Iluvbertie]

A few points:

Elizabeth was proclaimed Queen in London and Edinburgh on the 6th February.

She didn't take the oath in person until a few days later as she had to return from Kenya.

It wouldn't have mattered if the Queen Mum had been pregnant. The UK is never without a monarch so if she was then Elizabeth would have been Queen until the new child was born (no way of telling the gender of the baby in the womb back then) at which point Elizabeth would have abdicated in favour of her brother and then been Regent until he turned 18.

Lady Colin Campbell - like all other divorced wives in the UK - is entitled to continue to use her husband's name/title just as Diana and Sarah continued to do after their divorces.

The jewels that the various royal ladies have will be either part of the Royal Collection, in which case, they will always be part of the royal family as they belong to the nation; currently in the personal use of the given royal but destined for the Royal Collection on the death of the present user e.g. some of the jewels Sophie was given in the Middle East are hers to use in her lifetime but they they go into the Royal Collection with the expectation that either Louise or James' wife will wear it and then the granddaughter/s who knew Sophie; the third set is that that belongs to the royal personally and forms part of their estate and so can be sold but also has to be valued for death duties as well.

 

[duchessrachel]

Lady? Colin Campbell was married for about 15 minutes in the 60s or 70s to Campbell, but she has been using that name ever since. She? has always been on Wallis’s side against the royal family. I wouldnt believe her if she said the sky was blue and the grass was green.

I almost put quote marks around Lady in my previous post.

 

[Biri]

But would it be possible that the Queen Mother would have gotten pregnant NATURALLY (and in such an age) if she needed artificial insemination to have Queen Elizabeth and Princess Margaret?

 

[Curryong]

Who said she needed artificial insemination? Oh yes, Kitty Kelley, whose book on the royals had so many errors I noted a dozen in the first couple of chapters, and also, guess who, Lady C again!

By the way, I was reading George VI's bio by Bradford last night and Elizabeth had Margaret naturally, at Glamis, after a six hour labour. No ceasarian.

 

[Biri]

Didn't then exist the rule: "Once a Caesarean, ALWAYS a Caesarean"?

 

[Curryong]

In those days I think they played it by ear if things seemed to be going well, rather than subject the expectant mother to a quite serious operation.

The announcement at the time of Princess Elizabeth's birth was that 'a certain line of treatment had been successfully adopted'. That birth had been induced and perhaps labour was not progressing.

Margaret's birth being a natural one is in Shawcross, and the obstetrician assisting, Frank Reynolds, wrote to his wife of 'everything going smoothly without any trouble'.

 

[Denville]

Edward has only allegedly had illegitimate children - none were acknowledged or ever verified in any way

Yes I know. I merely pointed out that it was specualative, that mumps had made him sterile and that there are also rumours that he did father a child or 2.

 

[Denville]

In those days I think they played it by ear if things seemed to be going well, rather than subject the expectant mother to a quite serious operation.


Margaret's birth being a natural one is in Shawcross, and the obstetrician assisting, Frank Reynolds, wrote to his wife of 'everything going smoothly without any trouble'.

OH I thought they were boht caesarians....
But certainly they didn't want to have too many of them, I think the rule was no more than 2 or 3.. so that may account for them not trying for a boy...

 

[Denville]

I almost put quote marks around Lady in my previous post.

She is entitled to use the title "Lady Colin Campbell"..

 

[Biri]

Margaret's birth being a natural one is in Shawcross, and the obstetrician assisting, Frank Reynolds, wrote to his wife of 'everything going smoothly without any trouble'.

Maybe he had in mind "The operation went without complications"? (No heamorrage, no infection, no uterine rupture, etc.)

 

[Curryong]

It was 'after a six hour labour' that Margaret was born. (In Shawcross, the authorised biography which is fully footnoted.) You don't have a six hour labour, with everything 'going smoothly without any trouble' and then perform a ceasarian operation. There is no mention of a ceasarian operation in the account of Prss Margaret's birth.