King Charles and Queen Camilla

[Avalon]

And back to topic then.
In this article, about the possivle multi-faith coronation of Prince Charles, they mention the possibility (however small) that the next King:

should be instituted "not by a coronation but by an inauguration or installation".

What exactly is that suppose to mean, anyone knows?

 

[BeatrixFan]

It's a lovely hippy politically correct way of saying that thousands of years of glorious tradition should be scrapped because we now have a few buddhists living here.

 

[TheQueen]

Sounds more like a swearing in of a President than a Monarch. But some monarchs do not have Coronations.

 

[Oppie]

This is a good website to see what other royals do. It goes from Grand Duke Jean enthronement in Luxembourg, Margarthe of Denmark, Carl Gustav of Sweden, Juan Carlos of Spain, Beatrix of the Netherlands, Hans Adam of Liechtenstein, Harald of Norway, Albert of Belgium and ends with Henri of Luxembourg. http://www.angelfire.com/vt/luxenthronement/

The sister site shows what a cornation is like for Queen Elizabeth II also covers the death of George VI http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/coronation/

You can see the comparisions between the two kinds of ceremonies. Great Britian is the only European country to still have a coranation (....well I guess that is up in the air to)

 

[Next Star]

We are not talking about a movie. We are talking about Prince Charles being King And Camilla being Queen. I hope that Queen Elizabeth II reigns for a long time and that will hold off Camilla from being Queen. And where did this Princess Diaries 2 thing come from ? These people are not actors but real life royals. And the law being changed is just another choice.

 

[Elspeth]

OK, now we've established that Camilla will be Queen if Charles becomes King and Parliament doesn't pass any laws to change her status, perhaps we could move on?

Elspeth

British Royals moderator

 

[Maxie]

This is a good website to see what other royals do. It goes from Grand Duke Jean enthronement in Luxembourg, Margarthe of Denmark, Carl Gustav of Sweden, Juan Carlos of Spain, Beatrix of the Netherlands, Hans Adam of Liechtenstein, Harald of Norway, Albert of Belgium and ends with Henri of Luxembourg. http://www.angelfire.com/vt/luxenthronement/

The sister site shows what a cornation is like for Queen Elizabeth II also covers the death of George VI http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/coronation/

You can see the comparisions between the two kinds of ceremonies. Great Britian is the only European country to still have a coranation (....well I guess that is up in the air to)

Thank you for these interesting links, Oppie! I think it's such a pity that they toned down the coronation ceremony in so many countries. I surely do hope that the British will stick to their traditions...

 

[Zonk]

Yes, Oppie what a great link. I think when it comes down to it...Charles will end up keeping a lot of traditions. I love the Trooping of the Colour and I can only imagine what a cornation would be like.

 

[Avalon]

I will be very sorry if the coronation ceremony is abolished in England. Apart from being a very beautiful and regal ceremony, it's also part of centuries-old tradition, most important part. I simply can't imagine a Coronation of a British Monarch without Coronation Ceremony.
And thank you very much for the great link Oppie!

 

[Next Star]

Those crowns that Prince Charles and Camilla will wear as King and Queen are beautiful but there heavy you know thier heads wiil be hurting.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The coronation will never be abolished. It symbolises too much. Charles will have plenty of practise wearing his Crown before the big day and Camilla will get used to heavy headgear what with her tiaras. I'll certainly be a beautiful ceremony and they'll look perfect as King and Queen. Just like Edward and Alexandra.

 

[Prince of Chota]

You seem to be repeating your point as if it somehow alters things. Things change everyday but the Government won't change thousands of years of tradition for a woman who in all honesty will probably only be Queen for 10-20 years to appease fans of a dead ex. The Government has better things to do.

I couldn't agree more. It's unreasonable to expect tradition to change just because Charles was married previously. He wouldn't be the first monarch. I wouldn't be completely surprised if Camilla was titled Princess Consort, but there really isn't a reason for that to happen, so it is unlikely (Diana, Princess of Wales was never known as Queen Consort, so there is no conflict).

 

[Prince of Chota]

The coronation will never be abolished. It symbolises too much. Charles will have plenty of practise wearing his Crown before the big day and Camilla will get used to heavy headgear what with her tiaras. I'll certainly be a beautiful ceremony and they'll look perfect as King and Queen. Just like Edward and Alexandra.

The coronation is much-loved and sacred. I sincerely doubt it will ever be demoted to an investiture without major public outcry. With all this talk of Camilla's crown choices, though, I wonder if she'll even wear one, given that Charles wants to simplify the regalia. St. Edward's crown is highly symbolic (as is everything), but if he doesn't wear that, I can hardly imagine Camilla wearing one of the consort crowns. In which case, I would presume that the State Diadem would be the most appropriate.

I agree with you, though, Charles will ultimately give in to tradition. I'm sure he'll get his way on a few issues, but the people of the United Kingdom have a brilliant history of compromise.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Oh she'll have to wear the Crown to be Queen Consort. That part can't be changed.

 

[Frothy]

While Camilla may legally be Queen, the King is the fount of honour and if he accedes to her request to be styled HRH the Princess Consort then that is what it will be.

I hate the title change, but it is due to cowardice on the pat of Charles IMO and it will happen.

It won't be a big deal to change the law. The precedent of the Netherlands will be held up. And if Camilla is officially known as Princess Consort that's the title you'll see TRF using.

 

[branchg]

While Camilla may legally be Queen, the King is the fount of honour and if he accedes to her request to be styled HRH the Princess Consort then that is what it will be.

The Sovereign cannot be a peer and the wife of the King is Queen. There is no such thing as morganatic marriage for the King, as was clarified in 1936.

Parliament would have to pass legislation allowing a lesser rank, title and style before Charles could issue letters patent creating Camilla a princess of the UK in her own right. You cannot be a princess if you are legally Queen Consort.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The Sovereign cannot be a peer and the wife of the King is Queen.

Just important to note that whilst the Sovereign can't be a peer in the Government sense, the Sovereign can hold peerage titles.

 

[love_cc]

So now people are accepting that the fact, when Charles becomes King, Camilla will be his Queen Consort. It is fine by me anyway. It is interesting to hear that Prince Philip will be ranked before William and after Charles and Camilla if he outlives the Queen. Actually, I found it was hard to accept, if Charles were crowned King, but Camilla were HRH princess consort, but William and his wife will be HMs King and Queen.I found it was hard to deal the ranks.

By the way, if Camilla was crowned Queen, when Charles died and William became the King, what is the rank for his wife and him and Camilla? The current HMs King and Queen and the former Queen? Camilla cannot be named as Queen Mother and So she will remain as Queen Camilla, is that right?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Not sure what you mean love_cc. If Charles and Camilla married and were crowned King and Queen and Charles died, Camilla would be known as HM Queen Camilla or more traditionally, HM The Dowager Queen Camilla. If Charles died and never became King, Camilla would probably be HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall following a precedence set by Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. Camilla couldn't be named as Queen Mother so you are right, she'd be HM Queen Camilla.

 

[Henri M.]

So now people are accepting that the fact, when Charles becomes King, Camilla will be his Queen Consort. It is fine by me anyway. It is interesting to hear that Prince Philip will be ranked before William and after Charles and Camilla if he outlives the Queen. Actually, I found it was hard to accept, if Charles were crowned King, but Camilla were HRH princess consort, but William and his wife will be HMs King and Queen.I found it was hard to deal the ranks.

By the way, if Camilla was crowned Queen, when Charles died and William became the King, what is the rank for his wife and him and Camilla? The current HMs King and Queen and the former Queen? Camilla cannot be named as Queen Mother and So she will remain as Queen Camilla, is that right?

For so far the situation, when Charles becomes King, Camilla of Cornwall will become:

HRH The Princess-Consort

there are a few options but I have the idea she will be known as HRH Princess Camilla ofter her spouse's death. here will be a new Consort to the new King. It will be up to King William to decide on the style of his stepmother.

 

[BeatrixFan]

As has been explained Henri M. - the Princess Consort thing can't legally happen to Britain without an Act of Parliament and that won't happen. So she'll be HM The Queen whilst she's Queen Consort and HM Queen Camilla when Charles passes on. Charles and Camilla will take precedence over Philip if he's still alive.

 

[Henri M.]

That is true indeed: an Act of Parliament is required to change the rules about the style of the Sovereign's female consort.

But I wonder: Queen Victoria determined that her spouse should be known as HRH The Prince-Consort. Queen Elizabeth determined that her spouse should be known as HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

So apparently there is some space to manoeuvre for the Sovereign. So why not with the title(s) for Camilla?

 

[BeatrixFan]

It's different with male consorts. The Queen did want Philip to take the title "The Prince Consort" but he refused it. He has all the privelages of a consort without actually having the title. In Britain, a man doesn't take his wife's titles etc in a male form so their titles have to be specially created and tend to get more attention but with the females, it's pretty much just as a case of the husband's titles in female form.

 

[Henri M.]

It's different with male consorts. The Queen did want Philip to take the title "The Prince Consort" but he refused it. He has all the privelages of a consort without actually having the title. In Britain, a man doesn't take his wife's titles etc in a male form so their titles have to be specially created and tend to get more attention but with the females, it's pretty much just as a case of the husband's titles in female form.

Well it can happen the way it works now:

Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales by virtue of her marriage to HRH The Prince of Wales, but is known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.

In the future the same scenario can be followed:

Camilla is HM The Queen by virtue of her marriage to HM The King, but is known as HRH The Princess-Consort.

In that case no Act of Parliament is required.

 

[BeatrixFan]

She is Princess of Wales but is known as the Duchess of Cornwall because she has both titles and is able to use them both. As Queen, she wouldn't have the title Princess Consort. She has one or the other and as she'd have to be Queen before they could make her Princess Consort, she will be Queen for a short time even if she chooses to use Princess Consort later which she probably won't. I'm afraid the Princess Consort thing really was just a carrot for the donkeys.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Just one point to clarify. Princess Alice asked Queen Elizabeth to allow her to use the title and style Princess Alice of Gloucester. The Queen had to give formal permission.

Should Charles pass away and William become King before Charles dies (before QEII died), and Camilla is still alive, she will be known as HRH the Duchess of Cornwall, as is how she is formally styled. Yes we know she is all the other female counterparts to Charles's title. BUT, if she wanted to be known as Princess Camilla of Corwall, or something to that effect, in formal style, then she would need to ask and receive the William's (who would be King) permission. Unless you were born a Princess you cannot automatically use the Princess prefix before your first name.

We in the States always got Diana's title (before and after divorce) wrong, She was Diana, Princess of Wales. The Princess prefix comes after. The whole Princess Di thing was incorrect to use.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Excellently put Lady M.

 

[Henri M.]

HRH The Duchess of Lancaster

She is Princess of Wales but is known as the Duchess of Cornwall because she has both titles and is able to use them both.

As The Sovereign helds the Duchy of Lancaster (the portfolio, trusts and assets serve The Sovereign) maybe he can instruct that his spouse will be known as Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Lancaster ?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Thats quite possible although it would never happen.

 

[Henri M.]

Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Lancaster

Thats quite possible although it would never happen.

Why not?

Who would ever have predicted the spouse to The Prince of Wales would become known as Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cornwall?
Now it is almost like normal....