Its a Girl: HRH Princess Adrienne Josephine Alice of Sweden: March 9, 2018


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Status
Not open for further replies.
xenobia said:
I think it would have been even more strange if they suddenly stopped following the old rituals for this (and future) grandchildren. I think it's a great tradition, with the council of states, Te Deum and all.
Click to expand...

I love the tradition.
 
I don't know if it is a good idea to tittle Princes Madeleine 3 Children as their father is a communor.
When they will be adults they will have less privacy , they will never live in Sweden. What do you think.
The King Sisters's children were not tittled and had their father , head of the family, surname.
 
maria-olivia said:
I don't know if it is a good idea to tittle Princes Madeleine 3 Children as their father is a communor.
When they will be adults they will have less privacy , they will never live in Sweden. What do you think.
The King Sisters's children were not tittled and had their father , head of the family, surname.
Click to expand...

It was a different time. I can't see anyting wrong with the royal daughters having titles for their children just as sons do....
 
Congrats to the family. Another girl is great.
Happy that they are keeping the traditions. Although No 10 in line to the throne, she is still a grandchild of the current king.
Bye Bine
 
maria-olivia said:
I don't know if it is a good idea to tittle Princes Madeleine 3 Children as their father is a communor.
When they will be adults they will have less privacy , they will never live in Sweden. What do you think.
The King Sisters's children were not tittled and had their father , head of the family, surname.
Click to expand...

The main difference is that the children of the King's sisters are not in the line of succession to the throne and that is why they have no royal titles and carry the family name of their fathers.

Madeleine's children will probably lose their places in the line of succession eventually, most likely because they will not be raised in Sweden in violation of the Act of Succession. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on that topic here, but I still think that, when Madeleine's children forfeit their succession rights, they will also lose their royal titles as is the tradition in Sweden.

The question of family names is more complicated. Someone posted Prince Nicolas' birth certificate on this forum a while ago. An asterisk (*) was inserted on the line for Madeleine's family name, suggesting that she doesn't use one, at least in Sweden. Nicolas' last name was listed, however, as "Bernadotte" with no reference to his father's family name (O'Neill). On the other hand, Leonore is rumored to have a US passport where she is named "Bernadotte O'Neill ". Madeleine's children's family name is unclear then.
 
maria-olivia said:
I don't know if it is a good idea to tittle Princes Madeleine 3 Children as their father is a communor.
When they will be adults they will have less privacy , they will never live in Sweden. What do you think.
The King Sisters's children were not tittled and had their father , head of the family, surname.
Click to expand...

So by that reasoning Victoria's kids should have no titles. :ermm:

Things change, laws are updated. When the king's sisters were married, they lost their place in the royal family. Their titles are simply courtesy titles, except for Birgitta who married a fellow royal. Up until the laws were changed to allow a female heir, women were not in line to inherit at all. Victoria and Madeleine would have become commoners on marriage if the laws had remained.

We have no idea if Leonor and her siblings will never live in Sweden. They may choose to. Leonor already attends a pre-school in Sweden at times.

Chris was offered a title. He chose to turn it down because he wasn't willing to give up his career and live in Sweden. His children shouldn't be denied a title because of his choice.

If Madeleine's kids were denied a title, then in all fairness Carl Philip's kids should have been as well. If you are going to limit titles, limit them to kids of the heir and leave it at that. It wouldn't be fair to let Alexander and Gabriel have titles, but not Leonor, Nicolas, and new baby. Alexander and Gabriel are no less set to have a private life then Madeleine's kids.

Madeleine's children will probably lose their places in the line of succession eventually, most likely because they will not be raised in Sweden in violation of the Act of Succession. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on that topic here, but I still think that, when Madeleine's children forfeit their succession rights, they will also lose their royal titles as is the tradition in Sweden.
Click to expand...

As you stated, traditions and laws have changed. So you cant base what will happen on old tradition. In old tradition none of the king's children would have been able to inherit as they all married commoners.

The king knew from the start that Madeleine's kids were not likely to be raised in Sweden. Its highly unlikely he would have gone to the effort to give them titles, if he planned to strip them of those titles when they were school age.
 
Last edited:
Mbruno said:
The question of family names is more complicated. Someone posted Prince Nicolas' birth certificate on this forum a while ago. An asterisk (*) was inserted on the line for Madeleine's family name, suggesting that she doesn't use one, at least in Sweden. Nicolas' last name was listed, however, as "Bernadotte" with no reference to his father's family name (O'Neill). On the other hand, Leonore is rumored to have a US passport where she is named "Bernadotte O'Neill ". Madeleine's children's family name is unclear then.
Click to expand...

Officially the senior members of the Royal Family don't have a surname, thus marked with * in official documents or just left out. But since the birth of Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine the Swedish name law has been changed and is no longer possible not to have a surname, well it goes for new ones. For instance, Prince Daniel could not remove Westling and don't have a surname, thus he now hos both names.

At least this is how I have understood it.
 
Kingen said:
Officially the senior members of the Royal Family don't have a surname, thus marked with * in official documents or just left out. But since the birth of Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine the Swedish name law has been changed and is no longer possible not to have a surname, well it goes for new ones. For instance, Prince Daniel could not remove Westling and don't have a surname, thus he now hos both names.

At least this is how I have understood it.
Click to expand...

Princess Estelle's surname, or rather lack of one, has become a matter for the Parliamentary Ombudsman (Justitieombudsmannen, JO) to look into.
However, they do not use Bernadotte as their surname, with the exception of the country's newest prince, Prince Daniel, whose full name is Daniel Westling Bernadotte.
The other members of the Royal Family simply have an asterisk (*) in the place where their surnames ought to be on the national registration form.
"This is completely based on an unwritten constitutional praxis, that the members of the royal family don't have surnames," Lars Tegenfeldt, the tax agency's legal expert on census questions, said to Dagens Juridik.
Tegenfeldt is against the special treatment of Princess Estelle.
"I've understood that it's useless to try and change this. I've also understood that the Swedish people most likely approve of the Royal Family receiving special treatment in this way. This seems to be the case for people who, dare I say it, ought to know better," Tegenfeldt said.
Princess Estelle skirts Swedish naming laws - The Local

Margareta Thorgren:
- The royal people are registered with no surnames, so is also princess Leonore. To minimize problems with passport checks, Princess Madeleine and Chris have chosen to enter two surnames in Princess Leonore's passport.
So Leonore is not named Bernadotte O'Neill as middle name and surname?
- No, the royals have only a first name. This was a practical issue when traveling. Princess Leonore is publicly registered just like the other royals. She has no surname.
Maddes namnstrul inför prinsessdopet _ Nyheter _ Expressen
 
LadyFinn said:
Princess Estelle's surname, or rather lack of one, has become a matter for the Parliamentary Ombudsman (Justitieombudsmannen, JO) to look into.
However, they do not use Bernadotte as their surname, with the exception of the country's newest prince, Prince Daniel, whose full name is Daniel Westling Bernadotte.
The other members of the Royal Family simply have an asterisk (*) in the place where their surnames ought to be on the national registration form.
"This is completely based on an unwritten constitutional praxis, that the members of the royal family don't have surnames," Lars Tegenfeldt, the tax agency's legal expert on census questions, said to Dagens Juridik.
Tegenfeldt is against the special treatment of Princess Estelle.
"I've understood that it's useless to try and change this. I've also understood that the Swedish people most likely approve of the Royal Family receiving special treatment in this way. This seems to be the case for people who, dare I say it, ought to know better," Tegenfeldt said.
Princess Estelle skirts Swedish naming laws - The Local

Margareta Thorgren:
- The royal people are registered with no surnames, so is also princess Leonore. To minimize problems with passport checks, Princess Madeleine and Chris have chosen to enter two surnames in Princess Leonore's passport.
So Leonore is not named Bernadotte O'Neill as middle name and surname?
- No, the royals have only a first name. This was a practical issue when traveling. Princess Leonore is publicly registered just like the other royals. She has no surname.
Maddes namnstrul inför prinsessdopet _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification and very good answer! :flowers:
 
LadyFinn said:
Princess Estelle's surname, or rather lack of one, has become a matter for the Parliamentary Ombudsman (Justitieombudsmannen, JO) to look into.
However, they do not use Bernadotte as their surname, with the exception of the country's newest prince, Prince Daniel, whose full name is Daniel Westling Bernadotte.
The other members of the Royal Family simply have an asterisk (*) in the place where their surnames ought to be on the national registration form.
"This is completely based on an unwritten constitutional praxis, that the members of the royal family don't have surnames," Lars Tegenfeldt, the tax agency's legal expert on census questions, said to Dagens Juridik.
Tegenfeldt is against the special treatment of Princess Estelle.
"I've understood that it's useless to try and change this. I've also understood that the Swedish people most likely approve of the Royal Family receiving special treatment in this way. This seems to be the case for people who, dare I say it, ought to know better," Tegenfeldt said.
Princess Estelle skirts Swedish naming laws - The Local

Margareta Thorgren:
- The royal people are registered with no surnames, so is also princess Leonore. To minimize problems with passport checks, Princess Madeleine and Chris have chosen to enter two surnames in Princess Leonore's passport.
So Leonore is not named Bernadotte O'Neill as middle name and surname?
- No, the royals have only a first name. This was a practical issue when traveling. Princess Leonore is publicly registered just like the other royals. She has no surname.
Maddes namnstrul inför prinsessdopet _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Click to expand...

So, if I understand it correctly:


  1. Leonore was registered in the national registration form with an asterisk where her surname should be. By analogy, I suppose that must have been also the case for Nicolas.
  2. However, Leonore's Swedish passport lists her surname as "Bernadotte O'Neill" even though Swedish law does not allow a double surname (her actual surname being O'Neill in this case then).
  3. Nicolas' surname on his birth certificate, however, is Bernadotte, rather than O'Neill.
Thanks, but that only highlights the extremely confusing way in which the Swedish Royal Family handles their names, titles and styles.
 
I was wondering when this would happen! Congratulations to the family. :flowers:

The new little princess is very sweet. I love her outfit. Can't wait to hear what her name will be.
 
Mbruno said:
So, if I understand it correctly:
  1. Leonore was registered in the national registration form with an asterisk where her surname should be. By analogy, I suppose that must have been also the case for Nicolas.
  2. However, Leonore's Swedish passport lists her surname as "Bernadotte O'Neill" even though Swedish law does not allow a double surname (her actual surname being O'Neill in this case then).
  3. Nicolas' surname on his birth certificate, however, is Bernadotte, rather than O'Neill.
Thanks, but that only highlights the extremely confusing way in which the Swedish Royal Family handles their names, titles and styles.
Click to expand...

The surname on Prince Nicolas's birth certificate is a reproduction of the name in his national registration.

https://x.cdn-expressen.se/images/a7/ac/a7acf9eabe914dfa9fda323d97afe8c1/annan/680.jpg
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kungligt/lillprinsen-har-fatt-sitt-personnummer/

Personbevis är endast ett intyg om vad som är registrerat i folkbokföringsdatabasen […]
[…]
Namn Bernadotte,
[…]
Click to expand...


To confuse things further, surnames were then constrained by the Names Act adopted in 1983 and repealed in 2017 (Namnlag (1982:670).

A child had to inherit their last name from their mother or father (cf. 1 §). Surname changes were only accepted for:

1. Adopting their parent's surname (cf. 5-8 §§).
2. Adopting their spouse's surname (cf. 9-10 §§).
3. Forming an all-new surname (cf. 11-14 §§).

Namnlag (1982:670) Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:670 t.o.m. SFS 2016:203 - Riksdagen

Thus Daniel, Sofia, and Nicolas were allowed to be registered with the Bernadotte surname only because the tax agency treated Bernadotte as their respective spouse's (Victoria's and Carl Philip's) or parent's (Madeleine's) surname.


Hans-Rickard said:
That a counsil should be held after the birth of a Prince or Princess is in the swedish constitution so that's a must, not an option.
Click to expand...

I cannot find any directive about holding Councils of State after births of Princes and Princesses in the Swedish Constitution.

Grundlagarna - Riksdagen
http://www.riksdagen.se/globalassets/07.-dokument--lagar/the-constitution-of-sweden-160628.pdf

The Norwegians, however, are obligated to adhere to a comparable ritual by Article 6 of the Norwegian Constitution.

"Article 6 […] When a Princess or Prince entitled to succeed to the Crown of Norway is born, her or his name and time of birth shall be notified to the first Storting in session and be entered in the record of its proceedings."

O-H Anglophile said:
They are private citizens. Some people still don't conduct their lives on Twitter.
Click to expand...

I believe Principessa meant the press release by the royal court, in which Chris O'Neill's family was named without his paternal sisters.

The Princess Family has returned home - Sveriges Kungahus
 
:previous: Likely because Eva made a statement on behalf of her daughters. She isn't connected to the other girls at all.

I am sure Chris' sisters probably sent private congratulations to their brother. I do hope we see one of them as godmother.
 
Awwwwww very adorable and sweet:wub:.
 
I love Maddie has social media and we get some really sweet looks into her life without being intrusive. Such an adorable photo of the siblings.
 
Awww, Leonore and Nicolas giving warm welcome to their little sister <3 How adorable!
So tomorrow we will hear the names.
 
Mbruno said:
Does that mean Leonore doesn't have a surname in her national registration, but her brother does ? I wonder why the two siblings were treated differently.
Click to expand...

"Skatteverket public records" (ie the tax authority that handles the national registration) is provided as a reference on Wikipedia for the comment that Leonore was registered with the surname Bernadotte, so something may have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince...tland#cite_note-Skatteverket_public_records-1


As to their Swedish passports, which are handled by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Court stated that Bernadotte O'Neill was also entered as the surname in Nicolas' passport (conflicting with the Namnlag (1982:670) which did not allow double surnames in the day).

Prins Nicolas tar över "Foppaland" | Göteborgs-Posten - Sverige
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/maddes-namnstrul-infor-prinsessdopet/


The new laws, if I understand them, would allow Princess Madeleine and her husband to legally change the surnames of their children to Bernadotte O'Neill.

Lag (2016:1013) om personnamn Svensk författningssamling 2016:2016:1013 - Riksdagen
 
Last edited:
Aw, I absolutely love the photo of all three children together. I wasn't expecting them to release anymore photos until the Te Deum so this was a nice surprise.
 
What a sweet picture of the 3 siblings together. The one of Estelle meeting Leonore for the 1st time & kissing her cheek is one of my all time favourites & this is just as adorable!! [emoji4]
 
Does anyone know at what time the name and duchy will be announced? I can't find any info about it.
 
Last edited:
I can't wait to hear her name and duchy.
 
Dear little baby! I bet she's going to have heaps of fun with her big brother and sister, and her cousins when she gets older.
 
So it's an Adrienne!

Adrienne Joséphine Alice, Duchess of Blekinge

Sounds really pretty! :D
 
Adrienne Josephine Alice, duchess of Blekinge.
H.K.H. Prinsessan Adrienne Josephine Alice, hertiginna av Blekinge - Sveriges Kungahus

Adrienne, I don't like that at all. Adele would have been lovely.

The king and Victoria greeting the members of the government, only a few at the Council of State today.
https://media.shootitlive.com/Re4xxQVAhTavWxjQDdLnq1AJgpL/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/4MEe1dfRc8gzsEx6As74VQ4jjW7/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/0LP0AvkpfSlBmcSh2GfFfLkMQX0/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/KslrF58F4ZiuU0Jmumq8MqVjUqQ/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/OHcDirALy4UgleKgk4YaGCyXO2t/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/J53bzZHJJ1KoTXw8zqfoLoWxpKO/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/3hQiVO14dPon8ss0ZPQUhj7TKNi/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/Mrn3geS23wc61zpBzAf02fnzTcJ/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/WQ4FJboYmOqRqQJNyrGAqhxYCrD/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
https://media.shootitlive.com/AXdIocAnBGWZQPLE8AcCLmWGrwl/1200.jpg?project_id=expressen/3008
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Baron Brockdorf
A Boy for Carl Philip and Sofia - Alexander Erik Hubertus Bertil: April 19, 2016
9 10 11
Replies
322
Views
63K
iceflower
iceflower
JessRulz
  • Locked
It's A Boy: HRH Prince Nicolas Paul Gustaf of Sweden: June 15, 2015
7 8 9
Replies
265
Views
56K
JessRulz
JessRulz
JessRulz
  • Locked
It's A Girl: HRH Princess Leonore Lilian Maria of Sweden: February 20, 2014
22 23 24
Replies
702
Views
119K
JessRulz
JessRulz

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom