Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Ish]

Biri - while many would have lived had Henry not broken with the Catholic Church, many in England who supported Protestantism would have been persecuted. No European country is without religious persecution.

 

[Denville]

Never a truer word said ,he'd have been the future Henry IX of England!

All sorts of things might have happened. he might have survived infancy, but died as a young man of 18. Might have married and fathered children by then but might not... His parents mght indeed have stayed married for life, but there would still have been a Protestant movement in England.. and there migt have been some issue that drove Henry into the arms of the Protestants..

 

[Denville]

The theory that males were more likely to miscarry was once widely accepted, but there was never firm science to back it up so much as conclusions drawn from looking at birth records. A study published a few years ago chipped away at the underlying assumptions.

https://www.sciencealert.com/female...th-during-pregnancy-than-males-study-suggests

That's what I thought..htat it wasn't scientifically valid....

 

[An Ard Ri]

Biri - while many would have lived had Henry not broken with the Catholic Church, many in England who supported Protestantism would have been persecuted. No European country is without religious persecution.

Indeed and Henry himself persecuted Protestants before his break with Rome and afterwards radical Protestants who didn't adhere to the rites of the established Anglican church.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/henry-viiis-savage-reformation/

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I have often wondered why Elizabeth Tudor, after she ascended the throne, did not take steps to have her mother's remains moved to the church at Hever where the rest of the Boleyns were.

St. Peter ad Vincula at the Tower of London was where people who were(wrongly or rightly) accused of treason were automatically buried and therefore could be considered a rather disgraceful resting place.

Not only that, Anne was not even in a coffin but an arrow chest!

I have read some accounts that Anne's remains were secretly spirited out of the Tower after her execution and taken in secret to the Boleyn vault and I hope it's true...but if not I wonder why Elizabeth didn't?

 

[An Ard Ri]

I think I read something that a 19th century search for Anne's coffin proved fruitless ,perhaps her remains were moved secretly?

Also buried at Church of St Peter ad Vincula

Anne's uncle George Boleyn,Viscount Rochford
Anne's aunt Jane Boleyn, Viscountess Rochford
Anne's Cousin Lady Jane Grey
Lord Guildford Dudley
Catherine Howard
Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Much thanks An Ard Ri...but I thought George Boleyn(Viscount Rochford) was Anne's brother and was executed with her, accused of treason and incest?

Lady Rochford was her sister-in-law and was executed with Catherine Howard, no?

 

[Denville]

I have often wondered why Elizabeth Tudor, after she ascended the throne, did not take steps to have her mother's remains moved to the church at Hever where the rest of the Boleyns were.

St. Peter ad Vincula at the Tower of London was where people who were(wrongly or rightly) accused of treason were automatically buried and therefore could be considered a rather disgraceful resting place.

Not only that, Anne was not even in a coffin but an arrow chest!

I :

because she could hardly do so without appearing to criticise her father for his actions against her Mohter. And she never crticised her Father, from whom her claim to be queen originated...

 

[Denville]

I think I read something that a 19th century search for Anne's coffin proved fruitless ,perhaps her remains were moved secretly?

Al

Ithougtht that a body ahd been found, or rather a woman's skeleton...

 

[An Ard Ri]

I don't they could determine exactly if it was infact Anne's remains ,they also could not find those of Lady Jane Grey or George Boleyn.

A later search found the remains of Lady Rochford and Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury who were buried near enough to each other.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

because she could hardly do so without appearing to criticise her father for his actions against her Mohter. And she never crticised her Father, from whom her claim to be queen originated...

Perhaps. But I still hope she secretly spirited out the remains of the woman who gave birth to her and loved her and was unjustly(imo) executed at her father's whim, and gave her an honorable burial..

 

[Denville]

I don't think she did....

 

[An Ard Ri]

Given the example of the remains of Richard III and dna tests I'm sure using similar methods they could see who exactly is who at the Church of St Peter ad Vincula,coffins seemed to have been dumped on top of others there.

 

[Ish]

I have often wondered why Elizabeth Tudor, after she ascended the throne, did not take steps to have her mother's remains moved to the church at Hever where the rest of the Boleyns were.

I wonder if not doing so (or if moving Anne privately) was a PR move. Elizabeth spent so much of her early life being framed as a bastard child of a treasonous woman, that I could see her not wanting to draw too much attention to her mother (regardless of the light in which she did so) during her reign. She probably didn’t even remember her mother - Elizabeth wasn’t even 3 when Anne was executed.

 

[Mbruno]

because she could hardly do so without appearing to criticise her father for his actions against her Mohter. And she never crticised her Father, from whom her claim to be queen originated...

A claim which, let us not forget, was disputed by a significant section of the English people and nobility, who saw Mary Stuart as the legitimate heir to the throne. Elizabeth's position was already fragile enough to be put in further risk over the memory of a disgraced mother whom she barely knew.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if not doing so (or if moving Anne privately) was a PR move. Elizabeth spent so much of her early life being framed as a bastard child of a treasonous woman, that I could see her not wanting to draw too much attention to her mother (regardless of the light in which she did so) during her reign. She probably didn’t even remember her mother - Elizabeth wasn’t even 3 when Anne was executed.

Very True and also by the end of that decade most of the Boleyns were dead too!

Mother : Anne Boleyn 1536
Uncle : George Boleyn, 2nd Viscount Rochford 1536
Grandmother : Lady Elizabeth Howard, Countess of Wiltshire and Ormond 1538
Grandfather Thomas Boleyn, 1st Earl of Wiltshire and Ormond 1539
Great Grandmother : Lady Margaret Butler 1539

Her aunt Lady Mary Boleyn lived until 1543
Her aunt in Law Jane Parker, Viscountess Rochford 1542

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I wonder if not doing so (or if moving Anne privately) was a PR move. Elizabeth spent so much of her early life being framed as a bastard child of a treasonous woman, that I could see her not wanting to draw too much attention to her mother (regardless of the light in which she did so) during her reign. She probably didn’t even remember her mother - Elizabeth wasn’t even 3 when Anne was executed.

Yes, I agree but James I and VI was the son of Mary Queen of Scots, whom Elizabeth I had executed for high treason. Elizabeth named James as her successor on her deathbed.

Yet James had his mother disinterred from her ignominious grave at Fotheringay Castle where she was beheaded, and buried as a queen in a magnificent Westminster Abbey monument. This despite the fact that he had last seen his mother as an infant of 18 months. Couldn't that have been seen as a sort of silent rebuke to Elizabeth I, to whom he owed his English throne?

Elizabeth was said to have shown kindness and favor to her Boleyn cousins during her long reign. Maybe she felt that was enough.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Catherine Howard's coffin was also not found during the 19th century search at the Church of St Peter ad Vincula.

 

[Gawin]

Yes, I agree but James I and VI was the son of Mary Queen of Scots, whom Elizabeth I had executed for high treason. Elizabeth named James as her successor on her deathbed.

Yet James had his mother disinterred from her ignominious grave at Fotheringay Castle where she was beheaded, and buried as a queen in a magnificent Westminster Abbey monument. This despite the fact that he had last seen his mother as an infant of 18 months. Couldn't that have been seen as a sort of silent rebuke to Elizabeth I, to whom he owed his English throne?

Elizabeth was said to have shown kindness and favor to her Boleyn cousins during her long reign. Maybe she felt that was enough.

Yes, but James's legitimacy and his mother's status as Queen were never disputed. And he would never have become King of Scotland & later England had he not been the son of Mary Queen of Scots. Essentially she was the matriarch of the new English dynasty. Moving her to Westminster Abbey was James's way of acknowledging that.

Elizabeth didn't owe her throne to her mother. Because Anne's marriage was annulled shortly before her execution, Anne wasn't even a queen when she died, and Elizabeth was declared illegitimate. Plus, Anne was a controversial figure even among Protestants, which is why so many were willing to bypass Elizabeth in favor of Lady Jane Grey when Edward VI died. Elizabeth was a pragmatist and clearly had no interest in revisiting the past by reburying her mother.

 

[Kataryn]

Yes, but James's legitimacy and his mother's status as Queen were never disputed. And he would never have become King of Scotland & later England had he not been the son of Mary Queen of Scots.

"Never" is a tough word. As both Mary Stuart and James' father Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley were decended from the Royal line of the Stuarts and from the Tudors, it's difficult to say that James wouldn't have become king of both countries if his mother hadn't existed...

 

[Gawin]

"Never" is a tough word. As both Mary Stuart and James' father Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley were decended from the Royal line of the Stuarts and from the Tudors, it's difficult to say that James wouldn't have become king of both countries if his mother hadn't existed...

If his mother hadn't existed neither would he.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Catherine Howard's coffin was also not found during the 19th century search at the Church of St Peter ad Vincula.

Did Catherine Howard have a coffin? I remember reading that they had to improvise a coffin for Anne Boleyn, but she was an anointed queen. Did most of the people who were buried in the chapel have a coffin--coffins take up a lot of space. I am not sure who would have paid for Catherine Howard's (or any of the other disgraced traitors).

It would certainly be interesting if they were to disinter remains and conduct DNA tests. There are still some Carey relatives, so it should be possible to confirm the identify the Boleyns.

 

[Kataryn]

If his mother hadn't existed neither would he.

I see what you mean but I was talking about how James, Son of Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley might have fared in Scotland and England if Mary Stuart had been born dead. Then Lord Arran would have become king and after him Henry's father was next in line. With all the fighting going on, there is a probability that the Hamilton of Arran-line ended up with Henry Darnley's grandmother and her offspring. Henry's mother was a cousin of Elisabeth, so his son was as eligable for inheritance of the English throne as he was on being Mary Stuart's son. It only needed very few deaths to put James in exactly the same position if Mary Stuart never existed.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Not sure about the details of her burial but she was the granddaughter of and niece of the Duke of Norfolk who weren't short of money.The 1876 search for her remain was sadly unsuccessful.

Catherine Howard was a 1st cousin of Anne and George Boleyn all 3 ending up headless in the Church of St Peter ad Vincula.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Not sure about the details of her burial but she was the granddaughter of and niece of the Duke of Norfolk who weren't short of money.The 1876 search for her remain was sadly unsuccessful.

Catherine Howard was a 1st cousin of Anne and George Boleyn all 3 ending up headless in the Church of St Peter ad Vincula.

Catherine Howard's family certainly had money but most of them were under arrest and, the Duke, who wasn't under arrest, was not exactly sympathetic to her. Perhaps he had an obligation to pay for a coffin. The description from the site I link below seems to indicate that there were no coffins.

https://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/anne-boleyns-remains-the-exhumation-of-anne-boleyn/

 

[An Ard Ri]

Here's the Victorian memorial for Catherine Howard at the Church of St Peter ad Vincula.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Catherine_Howard's_Tomb.jpg

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The trial of Queen Catherine of Aragon
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/463969981

Choir records double agent's music given to Henry VIII https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-engl...ble-agent-s-music-given-to-henry-viii-in-1515

Mysterious Mary, the Queen's daughter
I like the fact that Queen Katherine Parr's daughter was named Mary to honor Katherine's eldest royal stepchild, Princess Mary, who was the daughter of Catherine of Aragon.
http://www.royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/mysterious-mary-the-queens-daughter-54103

The first meeting of King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/533506999

 

[sndral]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-tapestry-woven-gold-silver-thread-Spain.html
What a lovely tapestry and interesting from the POV of Henry VIII’s justification for sacking the monasteries.

 

[An Ard Ri]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-tapestry-woven-gold-silver-thread-Spain.html
What a lovely tapestry and interesting from the POV of Henry VIII’s justification for sacking the monasteries.

Amazing how it ended up in Spain of all places

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

How do you guys feel about Mary Lasalles/Hall, the woman who first brought the truth of Catherine's loose ways to the attention of the council?