General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 6: January 2021 - December 2023

[Muhler]

When you say you think he has to explain himself, what do you think is at risk if he doesn't?
(1)

Do you think his comments (or his silence) jeopardize the entire DRF? Or is it more that it hurts his popularity and potentially the willingness of Danes to continue paying his appanage?
(2)

I'm still trying to understand how and why Joachim's status became so controversial. I get that some people may question whether his contributions to society are worth what he receives in the appanage. But, there seems to be another layer to all this. Is there a concern that the royal court is mistreating him? Or, is there a sense that he's just pouting because he doesn't get enough attention?
(3)

Or maybe there's something else I'm missing? (And again, I'm not taking issue with anything anyone has written. I'm just trying to delve into it a little and understand things better.)

Okay. ?

I've added numbers to your post for ease.

(1) Public animosity towards Joachim.
For various reasons Joachim IMO is not a man who is easy to like. You have to look closely at the man. - He is not folksy like his brother, and I dare say father as well, who got on with most people on a personal level.
QMII has for most of her life been much more respected that liked as a person. - And I'm a Jutlander, so words like "like" are pretty big.
So when Joachim voice misgivings about something it is by many seen as complaining, whining if you prefer.
So yes, unless Joachim explains himself well, it will reinforce a negative view, many (unfortunately) have of him.
PH had the same problem. He sometimes "complained" about something. Mostly his status. But when he got the chance to explain himself, many could see that he at least had a point in a number of ways. - Like why shouldn't he get his own apanage? What was his role, apart from fathering an heir and a spare?
There were however also a number of cases, where he IMO really was whining for no particular reason than his own vanity.
But at least he explained himself and that helped changed the public view of him - big time!

(2) It will not influence the other DRF members. I dare say on the contrary. - You always look better yourself, when compared to someone who is seen in a negative light.
M&F have taken over. They are running the show now. They are the de facto Regent Couple. Mary is deeply respected and well liked. Frederik is at the top in regards to his personal popularity.
QMII sits in the background ad the grandmother of the nation. She has been around since forever and is a s close to being publicly venerated as I think you get in DK.
- Nothing Joachim does will change that.

Joachim is not particularly popular. The polls are universal and clear on that.
And when a not particularly popular man takes a job in France, even though it's on behalf of his country, many will be more inclined to say, he shouldn't get an apanage while having that job, since it pretty much prevents him from working for the DRF.
Personally I find that to be a very unfair view but that's my opinion.
So yes, it brings up the question of the his apanage.
The amount is relatively trivial IMO, but easy to relate to, especially if you have a negative view of someone. No work, no pay.

(3) There sure is a broad public view that Joachim is pouting. Again IMO mainly based in his popularity.
Not because he's not getting enough attention, I don't think that's a general view shared by critics of Joachim, more that he acts spoiled, I'd say.
Since I'm a supporter of Joachim, I do not think he has been mistreated by the court.
He may, inadvertently, have been rolled over by the court, in the sense that he faced a de factor order to go to France, rather than presented with an opportunity. But that is of course speculation.
So at worst I'd say the court, and that's mainly QMII, has been thoughtless. In a similar manner as the court was perhaps sometimes thoughtless in regards to PH.
People's feelings matter, even if you from the outside find it trivial.
I think hurt feelings, in one way or another, may also be a plausible explanation for Joachim expressing his misgivings in an interview.

- I hope that made sense. ?

 

[Prinsara]

Not directed at anyone, but is it really so easy to ignore in all this the fact he came very close to dying or being paralyzed last year?

It doesn't seem surprising at all if he is still trying to work everything out.

 

[Muhler]

Not directed at anyone, but is it really so easy to ignore in all this the fact he came very close to dying or being paralyzed last year?

It doesn't seem surprising at all if he is still trying to work everything out.

I think it's more than likely that he is thinking about his life, and where he is in his life, and what he wants to do with his life from now on.
I would be only natural that he after his illness would be taking stock of his situation.

But also in regards to his age. It's very common to stop up in middle life and think back, and see what have you done and what haven't you done? And what about your dreams? The midlife crisis, as it's often termed.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Not directed at anyone, but is it really so easy to ignore in all this the fact he came very close to dying or being paralyzed last year?

It doesn't seem surprising at all if he is still trying to work everything out.

That's sort of similar to excuse Henrik's outbursts with his dementia. Joachim began voicing his dissatisfaction long before his stroke and his more recent comments are really just a continuation of what he and Marie have spoken of before. So in that sense, I think it's a bit rich to want the press to stop asking for elaborations on his own statements because of the stroke.

 

[Prinsara]

As I recall there was no event in the middle of Henrik's dementia which would have caused shock or serious life re-assessment. So I can't see the situations as comparable.

Joachim may not have been happy or settled before, but the events of last year are not particularly likely to have helped.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Well, their situations are comparable in the sense that both Henrik and Joachim voiced their dissatisfaction prior to their illnesses as well. And so I'd consider it it's pretty unreasonable to want to be cut slack on the basis of the stroke for continuing to make comments on his situation that are very much in line with the comments he made before the stroke.

The last interview and Joachim's subsequent refusal to elaborate may have been what tipped the press over the edge but I think the public frustration is rooted in an accumulation of the situations regarding and comments made by Joachim for the past many years – dating back long before his stroke.

 

[maria-olivia]

Again comparing Prince Henrik dementia with Joachim's dissasfaction ! Boaring !!

To me it is a happy Couple , Marie managed well with Joachim's 4 Children. She was lovely attending her last Danish engagements.

The Picture with the Queen at Cayx seems is a happy one .

Never critics about Frederic and Mary . I have but will not written them.

 

[Izzie]

As of October 1, Marie becomes Special Cultural Representative at the Danish Embassy in Paris. This post on the DRF IG gives a detailed description of Marie's new role plus a quote from Marie.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUfIIc-jhPN/?utm_medium=copy_link

Press Release from the DRF website
https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/h...ssade-i-paris-som-saerlig-kulturrepraesentant

 

[Denville]

That's sort of similar to excuse Henrik's outbursts with his dementia. Joachim began voicing his dissatisfaction long before his stroke and his more recent comments are really just a continuation of what he and Marie have spoken of before. So in that sense, I think it's a bit rich to want the press to stop asking for elaborations on his own statements because of the stroke.

As far as I recall Henrik complained about being only a prince etc before he became ill iwht dementia. But when his mental state got bad, he had a few outbursts.. I think that since Joachim has been ill, it problaby has affected him emotionally/mentally

 

[Somebody]

As of October 1, Marie becomes Special Cultural Representative at the Danish Embassy in Paris. This post on the DRF IG gives a detailed description of Marie's new role plus a quote from Marie.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUfIIc-jhPN/?utm_medium=copy_link

Press Release from the DRF website
https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/h...ssade-i-paris-som-saerlig-kulturrepraesentant

I hope this new role will give the princess fulfillment and help the family settle better in Paris. It seems like a role that is fitting for a Danish princess of French origin. I did notice them mentioning her networking 'skills'. My take is that those 'skills' suddenly increased the moment she married a Danish prince.

 

[polyesco]

"In connection with the announcement, Her Royal Highness states the following:
I am both proud and honored to have the opportunity to be part of the new focus area. The job description falls within the focus I have had in recent years on the cooperation between Danish and French actors, and my family and I have now settled in well in Paris, so it is a perfect timing. It was therefore only natural for me to seize the opportunity. In my new role, I look forward to continuing to look after Danish interests - especially in the field of culture - in the coming years. ”

That is good to hear. She is perfect for the role.
And I do hope it was she that decided

 

[Izzie]

So with both Joachim and Marie having positions with the Danish Embassy in Paris, does that mean that they are not considered as full time working royals? I am not sure how it works with the DRF. Also, would this affect her work with her patronages?

It does sound like this position is a good fit for her and her interests and it seems she is excited and looking forward to this new position.

 

[Muhler]

So with both Joachim and Marie having positions with the Danish Embassy in Paris, does that mean that they are not considered as full time working royals? I am not sure how it works with the DRF. Also, would this affect her work with her patronages?

It does sound like this position is a good fit for her and her interests and it seems she is excited and looking forward to this new position.

That has been discussed a lot.
Well, IMO Joachim can't be a full time working royal at the moment. In the sense of him working for the DRF, rather than his country.
That would basically require him taking time off from work to do something for the DRF. Or do it in his holidays.
As for our Marie. Well, now that Joachim has settled in his job, and they have settled in their life in Paris, she will have more time to occasionally shuttle back to DK to do some work, mainly for her protections.
There are of course some logistic problems, but with the children at school most of the day, they are not insurmountable. And she may be able to arrange for relatives or a nanny to help - and now perhaps also Nikolai from time to time.

I won't put too much emphasis in Marie's position at the embassy. Considering her background and the fact that she is an experienced Princess, I find it natural to use these assets in the Danish-French relationship.
On a personal level, it also gives her something to do, rather than being a royal housewife. I believe that matters a great deal to her.

 

[Izzie]

Muhler - am I wrong to assume that now that Marie is also at the Embassy that there a clarification as to their roles within the DRF? If that make sense. I know there had been some interviews or statements from them about how they did not have defined roles or something along those lines. Almost as if there was a limbo as to where they fit within the DRF moving forward (especially given how it is more and more M&F running the show).

But now with both settling in with jobs at the Embassy and solidifying their lives in Paris, it seems pretty clear they will not play active roles...at least for the foreseeable future...other than seeing them maybe at a state dinner or public family event, etc.

 

[Muhler]

Muhler - am I wrong to assume that now that Marie is also at the Embassy that there a clarification as to their roles within the DRF? If that make sense. I know there had been some interviews or statements from them about how they did not have defined roles or something along those lines. Almost as if there was a limbo as to where they fit within the DRF moving forward (especially given how it is more and more M&F running the show).

But now with both settling in with jobs at the Embassy and solidifying their lives in Paris, it seems pretty clear they will not play active roles...at least for the foreseeable future...other than seeing them maybe at a state dinner or public family event, etc.

It does make sense. ?

I don't know to be honest. One commentator (in BT) puts a lot of emphasis into the new job as being a statement of J&M having listened to the public polls and the criticism and that they here show that they do work for their money - i.e. apanage.
Again, appointing our Marie to this position is IMO a natural thing to do, considering her position and background and the fact that she is available and in residence.
Personally I don't think there more into it than that.
Could be wrong of course.

 

[Izzie]

It does make sense. ?

I don't know to be honest. One commentator (in BT) puts a lot of emphasis into the new job as being a statement of J&M having listened to the public polls and the criticism and that they here show that they do work for their money - i.e. apanage.
Again, appointing our Marie to this position is IMO a natural thing to do, considering her position and background and the fact that she is available and in residence.
Personally I don't think there more into it than that.
Could be wrong of course.

It might be a combination of quite a few things maybe. Marie is a natural fit for this position, it may help to show that they are working and earning their apanage and it helps to clarify where they stand within the DRF at the moment and moving forward. It could just have all been good timing on all fronts. Marie's statement seemed to show that she is excited/happy about this new position and looks forward to this new chapter for them.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Excited to see what this role will entail because at first glance, it sounds slightly insignificant to me. A bit more like a patronage than an actual job and yes, definitely an attempt at damage control from the DRF.

But I am happy for Marie that they've finally found something for her to do. I've always felt that she took the brunt of the relocation by having to just follow along to Paris as, essentially, a stay-at-home mum. I really don't blame her for having been frustrated about that.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have given an interview about their life in Paris to Danish magazine Berlingske out today.

The interview is obviously approved by the Palace this time, as it was announced by the Palace as well:


"Now I have a new dimension to the royal role: to be sent out (...) And it is a pleasure to be able to do something for Denmark in a different way."


** instagram post **


** berlingske: Eksklusivt interview med prins Joachim og prinsesse Marie: »Vi har ikke bestemt, hvad der skal ske efter Paris« **

 

[Muhler]

Another one?

It's behind a paywall though.
If they say something remotely controversial BT is going to write about it, so I suggest our newsdiggers keep an eye on BT.dk.
BB is going to pick up on this as well, but the personal bits only.

If they say something that is controversial it's gonna be all over the news later today. On this dull Sunday after New Year.

If there is nothing elsewhere, it means they don't say anything interesting. But that would be unusual for a Berlingske interview.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

The DRF posting about the article makes me think it's extremely non-controversial and something the DRF's press department has had a fairly large hand in.

Without having read the interview, it sounds to me like the DRF has finally gotten around to addressing some of the statements that made J&M's interviews last year controversial. Them using a quote about his role within the firm to promote the interview especially feels like a statement in itself. Only problem about that, to me, is that a follow-up interview like this should've been done a lot sooner after the controversial interviews last. Another example of how the DRF (namely their press department) is completely inept at damage control.

 

[Muhler]

And BT has an article and it is indeed a - overdue - clarification:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joac...-mere-fri-end-kronprinsen-men-jeg-er-samtidig

The focus is on the now infamous Point de Vue interview and in this Berlingske interview Joachim clarifies:
"Now, I'll try to and make this brief. Most of us, no matter what destiny we have, can in our part of the world expect that we can pretty much do what we want. We are not forced to go the way of our parents. That gives a width and depth in our lives.
But when you are from a royal family, things are more set within a framework."
He adds that he can only move within a very confined/narrow niche.

"There is no manuscript when you are number two. You have to help define the role.
Now I have gotten a new dimension to the royal role: To be deployed."

"I have much more freedom than the Crown Prince to do what I want, but I'm at the same time limited in the way I live. It was merely in that context, that I said it."

- The question of apanage while being deployed abroad also came up in the Point de Vue interview and it's clear that J&M consider Joachim being a defense attache as falling within the royal duties.

Our Marie says: "To be deployed abroad for Denmark is also a royal representation/work."

He is supposed to be stationed in France for three years, when those three years are up, there are at present no further plans.
- Which suggests to me that he can extend his stay, seek another deployment abroad, return to DK as major general (which he is likely to be promoted to) and serve in some capacity there, or retire as major general (which is also an option, not least for health reasons) or return as a working royal, or pursue some personal ambition. (Like being a narrator.)

 

[polyesco]

Thanks to all for the links and insights. It is certainly damage control somewhat. Yes Joachim has limits but is also very privileged, and at 50+ needs to find his own even with the restrictions. Always nice to get an insight into their lives but this seems more of the same from their other 2-3 interviews

 

[Muhler]

Which suggests to me that they live fairly uneventful lives like the rest of us.

Two things: I notice the photos in the article is from the Danish House at Champs Elysee, not their private apartment.
The rent would no doubt be insane!

The second thing: Do they have a royal role to return to in year or so?

With Corona we haven't exactly seen that much of the DRF. So we can exist without seeing that much of them...
M&F is the de facto regent couple. QMII takes on the duties she has to as a head of state - and then pick those she feels like taking on. Not that she hasn't earned that right considering her age and 50 years of service as Monarch.
Benedikte drops by from time to time and do her bits.

Once Christian graduates from high school and leave Herlufsholm a lot of attention will be focused on him, no matter how visible he is.
I can't see Isabella escaping that attention either. She's the first teen-princess we've had in the DRF since the early 60's, that alone means lots of attention!

So in one way or another both Christian and Isabella are almost certain to take on some jobs, be that solo or with their parents. Just like with Frederik and Joachim, there is a role for Isabella until Christian is ready to really step up, probably when he is around 30 or so.

So if J&M return to DK as full-time working royals, after four years being away, what are they going to do?

One role as full-time working royals for J&M that I see is with QMII having passed away (or abdicated) and Benedikte retired as well.
I.e. Joachim is a predominantly supporting character for M&F, until Christian in particular is ready to take over in say fifteen years. With Isabella more or less voluntarily being a darling of the press though.
And our Marie taking over from Benedikte.

Otherwise I fear it will become a little crowded in Denmark with all those full-time royals out and about. And as it is J&M will fade away in the eyes of the media. Akin to Benedikte who work a lot, but get very little attention.

So I think Joachim will either continue his military career in DK or pursue some other thing that he is passionate about. With him stepping in from time to time, say as Rigsforstander.
And again with Marie taking over from Benedikte. Not the same jobs, but in a role similar to Benedikte. She seems to thrive doing that.
- Personally I think that will be the best and wisest choice.

 

[kalnel]

I think it's telling that Joachim keeps referring to himself as the "number two." He needs to come to grips with the fact that he's the "number six."

 

[Prinsara]

When you've spent your life trying to internalize you are "number 2", even when your parents simultaneously insist on raising you as a twin to your brother, I don't think it's so easy to slip that mindset.

I don't think Joachim wants to be king, or usurp his nephews and nieces. But I think he is still trying to figure out his own role. To his credit, he is working very hard for the family business (after a life-threatening illness) with a minimum of grousing and damage doing. Not all unsettled spares or former spares do the same.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

That's funny because, without being well-versed in every European royal family, Joachim definitely stands out to me as one of the most grousing spares. And while it's difficult to make out the workload of his current position, he certainly wasn't overburdened before he left for France.

 

[kalnel]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him trying to figure out his role at this point. He's 50, not 30, and his brother has had heirs for 16 years. Joachim isn't in a position like his great-uncle Prince Knud, where the laws suddenly changed when he was in his 50s and he found his future changed completely. He's had decades to sort himself out.

But, I'm sure there are things behind the scenes we don't know about. I hope for his sake that he is able to pursue whatever he wants to be and however he wants to live.

 

[Prinsara]

I hope for his sake that he is able to pursue whatever he wants to be and however he wants to live.

That would seem to be the opposite of the definition of "working royalty", number six or not. And perhaps it's part of Joachim's conflicts.

 

[Muhler]

Whether we feel sympathy for Joachim or not, he nevertheless address a relevant issue: What do we do with the spares, once they are replaced as spares?

We are going to see it in Belgium, until Elisabeth there has children of her own and they are in their teens.
The same thing in the Netherlands. Until Amalia has children of her own and they are in their teens, Alexia is on standby.
Spain, the same thing.
Sweden in 10-15 years Carl-Phillip will begin to find himself replaced by Estelle.
In Norway, they may have to introduce the concept of a working spare, Sverre. Who will eventually become redundant too.
In Britain, the problem has pretty much been solved, albeit somewhat unintentionally, for several decades into the future.
In Denmark we have Isabella, who will also have a role of some sort.

- Because Joachim is right. As a spare you have more freedom, but only to an extent.
You live a public life within a number of confines. You can't just settle anywhere you want. You can't just take on any job you want. You can't just do whatever you want - there has to be some royal dignity over your behavior. You can't just say or join what you want.
And that's your life until your older sibling produce a healthy heir and spare - who has reached a certain age. IMO preferably their teens, before you can truly call them an heir and a spare. Also because prior to that they will often accompany their parents on flights and if there is an accident...

Beforehand the spare continued to have an active role or got an estate somewhere or an apanage to live off, while quietly fading away.

I do not like and I think it's very unwise to say when the spare is middle aged: Thank you for your services, here is your notice. Now buck off.

 

[kalnel]

I think the Netherlands actually has a pretty good model for spares. Willem-Alexander's brothers both pursued professional careers while being spares. The same is true in Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

And, Denmark has an excellent "former spare" in Benedikte. She's been sliding down in in the line of succession for half a century, but she does her job without any public complaints.