Frances Shand Kydd (1936-2004) - Diana's Mother


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EmpressRouge said:
This is true. I think the difference was in how society and the public reacted. Frances was branded an unfit mother and had her children taken from her. Diana, from an era more used to independent women, managing to find her niche in humanitarian work, was seen as a victim and glorified.
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Frances is still vilified, IMO and yet she was a tragic person. Right up until her death Frances was punished by her former friends and associates, being labeled a bolter, (even though she kept the younger children with her until ordered by the courts to give them back to their father) without an ounce of compassion for her. To then loose, after 20 years of marriage, the man she had lost her children and all that she knew for, must have been heartbreaking.

She too turned to charity work, albeit local.
 
I'm not so sure that Frances was a modern woman, just a sad and bored one, married to a man who his former CO in the Royal Scots Greys had described as "very nice but very stupid" who had, wrongly, blamed her for the fact she did not produce the heir he wanted. And the death of their baby John was a deep tragedy in their lives from which they did not recover. Bradford quotes Spencer's former fiancee as saying he was "the best company when he was a young man, but "just became boring and wrapped up in his children and his country life".

As for Diana and country pursuits, I think she was expected to like them because before the engagement she had given every indication that she liked them very much.

ETA, having now read Skydragon's post immediately above, bearing those matters in mind, plus the fact that her own mother gave evidence against her in that custody hearing, I agree that Frances was indeed a tragic person.
 
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I guess I meant that Diana and Frances had expectations of marriage that went beyond the traditional aristocratic marriage, although I think Frances at first didn't, but as she begun to grow older did. Charles and Earl Spencer both had very traditional ideas of aristocratic marriage, where the wife liked country pursuits and the country life, produced the needed heir, and maybe a spare. But also Frances and Diana were both very young and they grew older and wanted to experience life, whereas both Charles and Earl Spencer had had their youth, and both were pretty settled down.
 
Skydragon said:
Frances is still vilified, IMO and yet she was a tragic person. Right up until her death Frances was punished by her former friends and associates, being labeled a bolter, (even though she kept the younger children with her until ordered by the courts to give them back to their father) without an ounce of compassion for her. To then loose, after 20 years of marriage, the man she had lost her children and all that she knew for, must have been heartbreaking.

She too turned to charity work, albeit local.
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I heard that she was a schemer... that her and the Queen Mother put Diana directly in the path of Charles so that they might meet.. is there any truth to that?
 
I don't believe it was Diana's mother and the Queen Mother.

From what I understand, Frances' mother, Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mother thought it would be a good idea if Diana and Charles got together and encouraged the relationship.

Diana and Charles had already met when Charles dated Diana's sister, Lady Sarah.

Furthermore, I don't believe Frances and her mother, Lady Fermoy had an exactly warm relationship. Considering that Lady Fermoy actually testified AGAINST Frances in the custody trial. I am not sure Frances forgave her mother.

I would agree with Sky that Frances had a tragic life although I would say that some of it was of her own making.

Leaving her husband (and children) for a man who then leaves you for another woman. Not nice.

Does anyone know if a book or anything substantial has ever been written about Frances? Not just snippets of information in the tabloids?
 
:previous: It was not her mother but her grand mother who supposedly arranged for Diana to meet P Charles. The two grandmothers were the "schemers" in this.
To me the tragedy is that Diana was not close enough to her mother to be able to confide in her and get advice from her before and after her marriage to Prince Charles..
Frances Shand Kydd should have made an effort to get close to her children when they were grown and earn their trust and affection.
 
Lady Fermoy was Frances Shand Kydd's mother.

So the grandmothers are Lady Fermoy and the Queen Mother.

Having Frances as a sounding board (really the concept of a young 18-21 year old virign marrying an older man) must have screamed at Frances...this is your life...DON"T DO IT.
 
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Frances' grandmother was from New York. She was the late Frances Ellen Work. Frances Roche's father was Edmund, 4th Baron of Roche - son of James Roche, 3rd Baron Fermoy. Frances Ellen Work was married twice, but had two children with him, which included Frances, Diana's mother. Frances Ellen Work was a prominent part of the social circles in New York and Rhode Island. In a way she was like Bessie Wallis. She came from a wealthy family. Her father worked with the famous stockbroker Cornelius Vanderbilt (of the Vanderbilt Family - Vanderbilt Biltmore House in North Carolina) It really is a site to see, look it up. My parents went there this summer and brought back a book. I wonder if Frances Ellen Work got to visit this wonderful place. She was friends with one of the Vanderbilt's wives. Apparently one of the Spencer's married a Vanderbilt, the 10th Duke of Marlborough.

I did some research on Frances Ellen and until recently didn't realize how important The Vanderbilts really were. Interesting to find that her father worked with this man.
The two met though through a visit of James to the US, which is how they(Frances Ellen and James, 3rd Baron) became connected and that is how Diana's heritage has a line of American relatives.

Zonk said:
Lady Fermoy was Frances Shand Kydd's mother.
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Oh ok, right.. I knew someone was involved with the Queen Mother in trying to get Diana to meet Charles. Ok, right.
 
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Thank you Dierna23.

I just discovered the book as well on Wikipedia.

Might have to purchase it as well. My book list is getting longer every day!
 
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Here, in this... Diana: Her True Story (BCA, 1992) p. 55
The Queen Mother and Lady Fermoy became confidantes and it was largely supposed that they engineered the match between Charles, Prince of Wales and Lady Fermoy's granddaughter, Lady Diana Spencer. However, when asked about it, Lady Fermoy remarked, "You can say that if you like – but it simply wouldn't be true".[6] It was also said that she counselled her granddaughter against the marriage. (The Associated Press, 7 July 1993)
 
Lady Meg said:
I heard that she was a schemer... that her and the Queen Mother put Diana directly in the path of Charles so that they might meet.. is there any truth to that?
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No, Frances was not a schemer, but Fermoy and the old Earl Spencer were, IMO. I'm afraid Diana was seen as a pawn in a game to catch the greatest prize of all, to finally get a Spencer on the throne.:flowers:
 
What is it and the usage of women for political gain? Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, etc. Goodness.
 
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The game is played both ways. Queen Mary (and others) viewed Lord Mountbatten as a schemer and his "pawn" was Prince Philip.
 
Warren said:
The game is played both ways. Queen Mary (and others) viewed Lord Mountbatten as a schemer and his "pawn" was Prince Philip.
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A very successful schemer I may add. No one has any doubt that the Queen fell in love with Philip and is still in love with him, it has been a very long and successful marriage thanks to Lord Moutbatten.
 
Yes, there's quite a bit of love between those two octogenarians. If anything, Philip Mountbatten was an inconvenient match for Princess Elizabeth. There were his German relations, relations whom Britian was at war with just two years before the wedding. The King and Queen didn't seem to like him very much. I think that Princess Elizabeth showed a great deal of determination in marrying him. No-one could have manipulated a determined girl like that into marrying someone she didn't really want.:flowers:

Wisteria said:
A very successful schemer I may add. No one has any doubt that the Queen fell in love with Philip and is still in love with him, it has been a very long and successful marriage thanks to Lord Moutbatten.
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It wasn't just the marriage. The then Prince of Hanover warned Queen Mary of Lord Mountbatten's scheme to have 'Windsor' eventually replaced so that Charles would be the first Monarch of the House of Mountbatten. Queen Elizabeth (QM) also wasn't a fan of Lord Mountbatten.

Lord Mountbatten was close to both Prince Philip and later the Prince of Wales. Access and closeness equals 'influence' and those who have it don't give it up gladly. And especially not to someone who was known to hold "ambitions" for his name and his family.
 
Skydragon said:
Any sex marrying into the aristocracy is expected to fit in to the traditional ways, any that don't or won't make the effort are chewed up and spat out. I think the same problems of age difference happen across the social divide, not just within the aristocracy. :flowers:
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I agree with you. Half the trouble is that you have a young romantic bride and an older man who's hardened and set in his ways. After the honey moon's over the romantic young bride has a reality check. I also think that until recently there was some old fashioned snobbery in there too. I mean, just look at the way they used to hunt high and low for a suitable bride but not a commoner, no! The aristocrats in Britain used to consider themselves as "betters" and looked down on commoners entering the set. It also seems that commoners who marry into the British set bail out after a few years. Only one of the Queen's children's marriages to a commoner has even lasted.
 
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Lighthouse said:
... The aristocrats in Britain used to consider themselves as "betters" and looked down on commoners entering the set. It also seems that commoners who marry into the British set bail out after a few years. Only one of the Queen's children's marriages to a commoner has even lasted.
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Would any of the middle or upper classes be happy for their son/daughter to marry a chav, of course not. What the upper classes or aristocrats tend to look for, IMO, is to marry within their social set or above, simply not too far below.

There are many happy, long lasting marriages within the aristocracy, where one of the partners was not from that class. The ones that don't want to make the effort to fit in do leave or are not included, the same is true, I would imagine, with any marriage where the partner makes no effort to adapt.:flowers:
 
Diana is very pretty in the second pic,and she resembles a little to her mom.Thanks dear gfg02:flowers:
 
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Although the Prince of Wales was given the surname Mountbatten-Windsor it can't be argued that he will be the first Mountbatten sovereign. Mountbatten is the anglicized form of Battenberg, which is a noble house, and Princess Andrew of Greece was born with that name. It is highly unlikely any sovereign would take the maiden name of his paternal grandmother as his House designation. Please do correct me if I am wrong but a 1957 order in council confirmed the royal house would remain Windsor, no hyphens or interlopers allowed.
 
In the first picture, I like the close up of Diana and her mother. They resembles a little bit. Thank you, gfg02.:)
 
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I did nt realize there was such an age difference between
Frances and her beau... the future Earl Spencer...
When they married.....Frances was age 18 and John Spencer age 30.
Yes it was the wedding of the year.. ie...... 1954... and the wedding took place
at Westminster Abbey.
Frances and John made a handsome couple...
go here
http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/posting-vp367-celebheaven.html#367

They were ( like Charles and Di ) from different generations... I wonder if that contributed
to the breakdown in their marriage.


.
 
Frances had that same side-long look that Diana had. I've just noticed it in this picture. In some ways, Diana's life mirrored that of her mother's.
 
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Does anyone have a picture of Diana and her mom which was taken during the engagement period. They are walking down a street, I think they were shopping, I believe Diana had on a pair of white slacks which made her legs look a mile long and they were both kind of smiling at the photographers? I had the picture but someone ripped it out of my scrapbook.
 
For a long time I had a bad impression of Frances and it came from the info put out when Charles and Diana became engaged and then married. Frances had always been portrayed as the evil mother leaving her family in the cold. Being married to Johnny Spencer was no bed of roses for Frances. She was under pressure to bear the ever important heir and along with Johnny's drinking there was rumors of verbal and physical abuse which I have read in various articles, but I cannot state as to the truth. I think she put up with a lot of difficulties and it had to be terrible plus humiliating to be portrayed as she was in the press, let alone have her own mother testify against her during the divorce. I ended up feeling sympathy for Frances.
 
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