France: Kings, Queens and Royal History

[BillW65]

Hi & welcome Karl. Thanks for your post. Why doesn't Charles the Fat/Karl der Dicke - king from 876 to 888, roman emperor 881 have a number if he is recognized as a king in both the east and west Frankish kingdom? I think Charles The Simple should have been called Charles IV, other wise the numbering of the names of Charles for the kingdom of France doesn't make sense or add up.

 

[Konrad der Rote]

Charles the Fat was an eastfrankish Carolingian. The numbering of all eastfrankish Carolingians is very complicated.
see there:List of German monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Charles the Fat was the second King of his name who ruled the Eastern Francia Kingdom, after his great-grandfather Charles the Great. But in our Lists sometimes he is called "the third" (as roman emperor).

In Western Francia Kingdom Charles the Fat he has no number although he ruled this Kingdom from 884 to 888. Because just westfrankish-Carolingians they got a number.

 

[BillW65]

I have found in other monarchies the numbering system is not fool-proof, mistakes were made and there have been many.

One way I look at it is that the practice of giving monarchs a roman numeral was a tradition that came about many years later and often medieval kings were more known by their sobriquet than the number that was given them. Also many states such as France and Germany share a common history as the concept of nation-state changed and evolved in Europe over a considerable period of time.

For example Louis I "the Pious" (814-840) was a King of the Franks. Yet many centuries later Louis XIV (1643-1715) as a King of France was numbered as being from the same kingdom as Louis I. But the truth is Louis I's realm and the later evolved modern kingdom of France were so different that it is difficult to see both entities as being the same state. After the treaty of Verdun each section of the kingdom of the Franks developed and evolved separately taking different courses. The Western Frankish kingdom evolved into the modern Kingdom and state of France while the Eastern Kingdom evolved into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire.

Charles III "the Simple" died in 922 and was the last Western Frankish king by the name of Charles until 1322 when Charles IV came to the throne of France. Since it had been 400 years since the last Charles it is possible to see how mistakes could be made. In my opinion he should have been called Charles V of France. But as I said in the beginning other kingdoms made the same mistake.

I think I wrote this all out to answer my own questions for my own benefit to get this all straight in my head.

 

[Ithil]

Are there any pics that we can confirm are of Margaret of Provence, Queen consort to Louis IX, the Saint-king?

 

[ladybelline]

Are there any pics that we can confirm are of Margaret of Provence, Queen consort to Louis IX, the Saint-king?

Margaret (Marguerite) had her own seal :

http://www.corpusetampois.com/cae-13-marguerite-sceau.gif

But like her husband, portraits realised when she was alive are not known...

 

[silverstar]

Madame de Pompadour

What a charming lady... Jean Fish was .......well brought up, trained in singing and the arts.
She became the Mistress of Louis 15th in 1745.
Alas.... the King must have been easily bored as they only
remained lovers for 5 short years.
Perhaps the King was easily bored ? perhaps there were
too many ravishing young females on offer and Jean Fish just could nt compete with their charms ?
go here................
celebheaven :: Madame de Pompadour



.

 

[sjetajiem]

Jean Fish= Jeanne Poisson ?

 

[silverstar]

Im not well up on French , but last time I looked
poisson is French for fish

poisson
nm fish gen inv
Je n'aime pas le poisson. I don't like fish.
André a pêché deux poissons. André caught two fish.
prendre du poisson, prendre des poissons to catch fish

 

[Stephen Contrado]

Catherine de' Medici

CATHERINE DE' MEDICI
by
Stephen Contrado, B.A., Th.M.​

The de Medici family ruled Florence, Italy from the 15th century to 1737. Although they were of obscure origin, they gained immense wealth as merchants and bankers. They became affiliated through marriage to all the major houses of Europe and produced three popes (Leo X, Clement VII, and Leo XI) and two queens of France (Catherine de Medici and Marie de Medici). Through their patronage they helped make Florence a great center of European culture.

Catherine de Medici (1519-89) was the daughter of Lorenzo de' Medici, duke of Urbino. Both her parents died when she was in her infancy. She was the grandchild of Lorenzo the Magnificent. When she was 14 years old in 1533 she married the duc d' Orleans, later King Henry II of France. Three of her sons became kings of France (Francis II, Henry III, Charles IX). At first conciliatory toward the Protestant Huguenots, she later opposed them, calling for the execution of their leaders. She is sometimes blamed for the massacre on St. Batholomew's Day (1572), but it's unlikely she would have authorized any random killing. She has been called a Machiavellian politician.

Childless for the first ten years of marriage to Henry II, she was unpopular in the French court. With the help of astrologers she overcame her infertility and gave birth to ten children, beginning in 1543. She was patroness of the seer Nostradamus and a lifelong believer in astrology and the occult. She remained politically active until the end of her life. She toured France gaining the loyalty of its fractured and war-torn provinces. She amassed a huge collection of books and paintings, and built or enlarged some of Paris's finest buildings, including theTuileries Palace.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Wow,another Catherine de Medici fan,I'm totally fascinated by this brilliant woman,who was villified beyond reason

Margaret (Marguerite) had her own seal. But like her husband, portraits realised when she was alive are not known...

Her tomb & that of Saint Louis were destroyed during the 100 yrs War,shame that one of the greatest Kings of France has no memorial at Saint Denis

 

[silverstar]

Her grandfather being .... Lorenzo the Magnificent.... so her roots
go back to the glory days of the Italian Renaissance....
During the 1500s France and the arts were becoming
more important while Italy was on the decline.
I read that Catherine was deeply into the occult...
perhaps it would nt be an exageration to call her a witch !

 

[An Ard Ri]

She was interested in astrology,but a lot of myths have clung to Catherine's tainted memory.She was no more of a 'witch' than Elizabeth I who also dabbled with the occult.

Catherine's mother was a French noble,Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne.

 

[silverstar]

Catherine's policies, therefore, may be seen as desperate measures to keep the Valois monarchy on the throne at all costs, and her spectacular patronage of the arts as an attempt to glorify a monarchy whose prestige was in steep decline.
Without Catherine, it is unlikely that her sons would have remained in power. The years in which they reigned have been called "the age of Catherine de' Medici"

 

[Duchessmary]

Wasn't Catherine also a niece of the Pope?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Wasn't Catherine also a niece of the Pope?

She was a cousin of Pope Clement VII ,the Pope who defied Henry VIII.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Catherine's policies, therefore, may be seen as desperate measures to keep the Valois monarchy on the throne at all costs, and her spectacular patronage of the arts as an attempt to glorify a monarchy whose prestige was in steep decline.
Without Catherine, it is unlikely that her sons would have remained in power. The years in which they reigned have been called "the age of Catherine de' Medici"

Catherine was way ahead of her time,she granted French Protestants (Huguenots) far more religious freedom than Elizabeth I offered her Catholic subjects .

She protected the Huguenots as long as they were loyal,she banned the burning of Protestants & issued several edicts granting them limited religious freedom .

By contrast,the Huguenot Queen of Navarre,Jeanne III d'Albret persecuted her Catholic subjects but complained to Catherine that she did not offer French Protestants enough religious freedom !!

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Catherine De Medici introduced ballet and opera into the French Court, which was later expanded by Louis XIV.
She also had a great deal to do with expanding the design of French gardening, influenced by the Italian method and some tropical plants.

Larry

 

[An Ard Ri]

Indeed,The Ballet Comique de la Reine is now considered to have been the first ballet.It was staged in 1581.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballet_Comique_de_la_Reine

Some more on the Court Festivals of Catherine de Médicis ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_de'_Medici's_court_festivals

 

[Thribette]

Very glad to see admirers of Queen Catherine de Medicis, one of the best regents France has known, as a French royalist I am very grateful to her.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Very glad to see admirers of Queen Catherine de Medicis, one of the best regents France has known, as a French royalist I am very grateful to her.

She was in my opinion one of the Greatest of the French Queen's.The French Kingdom was blessed with many gifted & wise Regents,from Blanche of Castile,Anne de France to Louise de Savoie .

Ps I read that Queen Catherine de Médicis had many Irish nobles at her court,I'm also very grateful to her.

 

[Warren]

Henri IV

King Henri IV's head verified

Wednesday 15th December 2010

France's King Henri IV is to be buried 400 years after his assassination.
Researchers have confirmed a mummified head, long thought to be the king's, is in fact his and will be buried at the royal basilica of Saint-Denis.

Henri had been assassinated in 1610, but the head was removed following the execution of King Louis XVI, which led to the burial grounds of previous monarchs being targeted.

Researchers have verified the mummified head by comparing it to sculptures and portraits taken of the king while alive. The head had been well-preserved by previous owners, and historians were able to match similarities with a mole on the right nostril and an earring hole on the right earlobe.

King Henri IV's head verified - Female First

 

[iceflower]

_____________


Prince Luis Alfonso de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou at a press conference presenting the results
of a study after a panel of forensic scientists identified the royal head of murdered French
king (killed at the age of 57 on May 14, 1610, by a fanatic who waylaid him during a procession
and slashed him twice in the throat), one of France's most adored kings, who promoted religious
tolerance, who was a hit with the ladies and who was the first to dream of putting a chicken
in every pot. December 16, 2010 in Paris, France.



** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 ** belga gallery **

 

[De Lantenac]

Hi I'm french. Friday January 21th it's the anniversary of the death of our french king
Louis XVI (which I an assassinate)
Vive le Roy

 

[De Lantenac]

Hi I'm french. Friday January 21th it's the anniversary of the death of our french king
Louis XVI (which Is an assassinate)
Vive le Roy
Thanks

 

[Tilla]

was his name ORLEANS?

 

[Lady Deborah]

was his name ORLEANS?

No he was Louis Auguste de France. He was of the House of Bourbon.
The Orleans title was I **think** that of a Dukedom.

 

[Lady Deborah]

was his name ORLEANS?

Louis Auguste de France. He was of the House of Bourbon. I **think** Orleans is a Dukedom.

 

[Tilla]

Thank you, Lady Deborah, and have a nice day.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Hi I'm french. Friday January 21th it's the anniversary of the death of our french king
Louis XVI (which I an assassinate)
Vive le Roy

Vive le Roi !

 

[PrincessKaimi]

This has always caused me confusion. Charlemagne (Charles The Great) as King of the Franks is always counted as a "King of France" in many of the books I have. Therefore there were 11 kings by the name Charles if you count Charlemagne. The Kingdom of the Franks composed what is now modern France and parts of modern Germany and the low countries. If the kings of France are counted from the treaty of Verdun in 843 which broke up the Carolingian empire then yes, there were only 10 kings named Charles (we'd also have to exclude Louis I in that scenario..causing further discrepancies). What really causes me confusion: Is the Kingdom of the Franks a separate entity (or kingdom) from what later evolved into the modern Kingdom of France, or is it the ancient Kingdom of the Franks the same as the Kingdom of France? I'm confused and I have a degree in European history!!

I am confused as well, as one of the sources on this thread (Wikipedia) clearly states that Charlemagne is numbered Charles I in the French regnal system.

If it is in error, I can edit that out, but then I'd have to edit 10 other wiki's - as Wikipedia (as well as Encyclopedia Britannica) lists Charles the Bald as Charles II.

I was always taught (minored in European history) that Charlemagne, Charles the Great, was Charles I.

I am very interested in Charlemagne, especially in the linguistic turn that Frankish took when he settled in northern Gaul/Merovingia/Francia. The previous Celtic language co-existed with Charlemagne's Frankish/Germanic tongue. At that time, Celtic and Germanic weren't as widely separated as they would later become. Both had absorbed Latin words, of course - especially Frankish.

But how this situation evolved into modern French, I do not know. But I am guessing the Charlemagne's language would still be partly intelligible to French-speaking people today.

Karlaz (his name) was from the Frankish/Germanic side - for Free Man or Man. However, it quickly came to mean "King" in several other languages, all because of his actions. He is a great example of a common man who rose to great heights and founded a royal dynasty with vast historical significance.

I never tire of reading more about him, but I'm not sure where I'd go to see documents from his day (or reproductions of them). At any rate (and here, the Wikipedia article is pretty good), he was apparently born in a region of linguistic diversity (three languages spoken locally) and he must have been proficient at all three (my view). It seems unlikely that he would have learned to read and write, as a child, and mostly wore ordinary clothing. But there must surely be courtly documents from his day. I am going to get to visit the French National Archives this spring, so I was hoping to find something from his era there. Perhaps a quixotic quest.