Edinburgh and Wessex Titles

[EssexRoyal]

The talk of various princesses inheriting royal dukedoms is a bit pointless as titles in the peerages of England and the United Kingdom cannot be inherited by women. There have been many attempts to change the law, but to date none have succeeded.

Women have equality when it comes to the succession to the crown but not when it comes to peerage titles. There are a few titles , a very few, where there are special rules attached to the original peerage creation where a female can succeed when there is no male heir, i.e. the earldom of Mountbatten of Burma. In the Wessex case there is a male heir so the King would not want to break the law and set a precedent that would spark a wider debate about female succession within the peerage, but if Parliament changed the law the King would adhere to that.

In the York case the King could as a special favour to his brother issue a Letters Patent or Royal Warrant allowing the title, as there are no male heirs, to pass to the eldest York princess and then her male heirs - but that is extremely unlikely given the nature of the relationship between the King and his brother.

I do not believe C3 would want to create significant changes in the inheritance of titles. However, the next monarch may not be so reticent.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The talk of various princesses inheriting royal dukedoms pertained to hypothetical new (re)creations, so no law would be broken if the king and the government agreed on gender equal succession in the hypothetical letters patent for the new dukedom. That said, I agree that in view of the present attitudes of the king and the major political parties, it is a remote possibility for the foreseeable future.

 

[Somebody]

And if it would be applied it would make much more sense to start doing so from the next generation as that is the first generation to which the new rules of absolute primogeniture apply. James is ahead of his sister in the line of succession and is his father's successor for all his current titles/peerages.

 

[wbenson]

The King confers The Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward


His Majesty The King has been pleased to confer the Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Forfar, on the occasion of His Royal Highness’s 59th birthday.

The title will be held by Prince Edward for His Royal Highness’s lifetime.

 

[JR76]

The title will be held by Prince Edward for His Royal Highness’s lifetime.

Sounds to me like it could be a life peerage.

 

[Stefan]

Great News but a shame that it is only for Edward and James can't succeed to it.

 

[Alison H]

I agree it's a shame if James can't inherit it, but I'm glad that the title's been conferred on Edward. So James becomes the Earl of Wessex.

 

[Iluvbertie]

James may or may not decide to use the title Earl of Wessex. Many heirs stick with the first title rather than change.

 

[Nico]

The King confers The Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward


His Majesty The King has been pleased to confer the Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Forfar, on the occasion of His Royal Highness’s 59th birthday.

The title will be held by Prince Edward for His Royal Highness’s lifetime.

Great news !!! Again you have to laugh at all the speculations (and supposed rifts yada yada yada) seen here and there.

The King is the Master of his own agenda. Good for him.

 

[wbenson]

James may or may not decide to use the title Earl of Wessex. Many heirs stick with the first title rather than change.

I agree, but all of the royal reporters are simultaneously posting that he'll be known as Earl of Wessex (and not Forfar) so I think it's been briefed that he will change.

Edit: And the line of succession page that was so important the other day already calls him Earl of Wessex.

 

[Molly2101]

I thought this news would come today. I am so happy to finally called them Duke and Duchess.

So I understand that James will not inherit this title, which I’m ok with and I’m sure he probably is as it’s a big name to fill. James may not have wanted the pressures of having the title so he was happy for it to revert back to the crown. (He may not have even been involved but I would be surprised if he wasn’t.)

What I don’t understand is what Sophie’s title becomes if she outlives Edward and the title reverts back to the crown. Speculation was that the title would go to Louis but what if Louis is married at this time - would Sophie then become the Dowager Duchess of Edinburgh? Or do they wait for Sophie to also die before conferring the title onto someone else to avoid confusion?

 

[Hallo girl]

Great news !!! Again you have to laugh at all the speculations (and supposed rifts yada yada yada) seen here and there.

The King is the Master of his own agenda. Good for him.

I agree, our King is putting his ducks in a row. Everything sorted for the Coronation. I better get on with knitting those crowns for the party.

 

[Andrew_Goodchild]

Lovely news. I was a year out I thought the title would be given on his 60th birthday.

 

[Saragli]

Just as I imagined - it would be on his bday and it would be a life peerage. Technically, all of the Kings siblings titles will revert to the Crown eventually except for Edwards original ones. I hope this is the new standard for royal dukedoms.

 

[W.Y.CII]

Finally! Great news! On his birthday, that's worth waiting.

Question: I get that the title DoE will not be passed down to James, but what if Louise and James decide to use their prince/princess title in future? will they be called as Princess Louise of Edinburgh and Prince James of Edinburgh?

 

[Alison H]

Finally! Great news! On his birthday, that's worth waiting.

Question: I get that the title DoE will not be passed down to James, but what if Louise and James decide to use their prince/princess title in future? will they be called as Princess Louise of Edinburgh and Prince James of Edinburgh?

Yes. It doesn't look like it's going to happen, but if they do, yes, like Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses of York.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The King confers The Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward


His Majesty The King has been pleased to confer the Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Forfar, on the occasion of His Royal Highness’s 59th birthday.

The title will be held by Prince Edward for His Royal Highness’s lifetime.

Thank you, wbenson.

Rather interesting that the full press release provides background on the history of the Dukedom of Edinburgh, yet fails to mention the promise regarding the dukedom which was made by then Prince Charles.

For readers unfamiliar with that agreement, which was announced on Prince Edward's wedding day in 1999, here it is:

Title of HRH The Prince Edward

The Queen has today been pleased to confer an Earldom on The Prince Edward. His titles will be Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. The Prince Edward thus becomes His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex and Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex.

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...ews/title_of_hrh_the_prince_edward/40309.html
​

Great news !!! Again you have to laugh at all the speculations (and supposed rifts yada yada yada) seen here and there.

The King is the Master of his own agenda. Good for him.

Yes, the present King was the "master" of the speculations since, even if someone else was responsible for the original leak (which I personally find difficult to believe), it was then Prince Charles who confirmed on the record that he was contemplating not fulfilling the agreement he made in 1999.

From July 2021:

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."
https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/​

From November 2022:

A Buckingham Palace spokesman said no decision had been made.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...g-duchess-edinburgh-title-princess-charlotte/
​

 

[ada]

This has made my day. So deserving.

 

[Claire]

I am very glad. I think we will hear in time to come all the office politics that surrounded this. But happy for Edward and Sophie.

 

[Hallo girl]

The palace are not required to announce everything or anything. Just like another decision had been made last September but only made public now. Just because we didn't know, it doesn't mean the family were not aware of the plans. Maybe they wanted to wait a little bit. The reverting to the crown is also the way for Charles to slim down the monarchy.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Just as I imagined - it would be on his bday and it would be a life peerage. Technically, all of the Kings siblings titles will revert to the Crown eventually except for Edwards original ones. I hope this is the new standard for royal dukedoms.

Assuming Andrew doesn't marry a much younger woman and have a son ... which he could easily do if he wanted to do so.

 

[suztav]

Congratulations to the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.

Time to change the name of this thread?

BTW, I think this proves that Charles has a plan and a timeline which he will reveal at the time of his choosing ... not that of the media nor us!

 

[sm1939]

Lovely news, really pleased.

 

[Lilyflo]

I'm so pleased about this! I would have been extremely shocked and disappointed in Charles if he hadn't upheld his parents' wishes.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The reverting to the crown is also the way for Charles to slim down the monarchy.

A dukedom is not a royal title in and of itself; most of the dukes in the British peerages have no connection to the royal family.

What I don’t understand is what Sophie’s title becomes if she outlives Edward and the title reverts back to the crown. Speculation was that the title would go to Louis but what if Louis is married at this time - would Sophie then become the Dowager Duchess of Edinburgh? Or do they wait for Sophie to also die before conferring the title onto someone else to avoid confusion?

If the dukedom of Edinburgh is regranted during Sophie's lifetime to a man whose wife uses the title Duchess of Edinburgh, then according to convention, it will be Sophie's responsibility to adapt her title in order to avoid confusion with the new duchess.

For royal dowager duchesses, the precedent was created by the widows of King George VI's brothers, who adopted the style Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent and Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. If Sophie followed their example, she would be known as Princess Sophie, Duchess of Edinburgh after another woman became The Duchess of Edinburgh. But she could use another form, just as long as it avoids confusion.

I'm so pleased about this! I would have been extremely shocked and disappointed in Charles if he hadn't upheld his parents' wishes.

Not only a wish but an explicit agreement with Charles (see the 1999 press release quoted above).

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Congratulations to the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh!
What will become of the title of the Earl of Forfar?

 

[Alisa]

Finally!!!

 

[Granada]

Lovely, just wonderful. So pleased for Edward and Sophie for this Duchy and the recognition.

And its nice, as they are Trustees Of The Duke of Edinburgh Awards too I believe.

 

[biru]

The King confers The Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward


His Majesty The King has been pleased to confer the Dukedom of Edinburgh upon The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Forfar, on the occasion of His Royal Highness’s 59th birthday.

The title will be held by Prince Edward for His Royal Highness’s lifetime.

What a great news, and a lovely birthday present for Prince Edward. Congratulation to the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Finally. No matter if bestowing the dukedom of Edinburgh on Edward was a good idea or not, it is something that Charles made a public agreement with his parents to do. And it finally tidies up the discrepancy of every adult son of a British king (including those in the next generation after Edward), except for one, having a dukedom.

I have mixed feelings about the bestowal of the dukedom as a life peerage. On the one hand, it makes no logical sense that the royal dukes in the generations before, of (Andrew), and after Edward (William and Harry) are allowed to pass on their dukedoms and he is not. And it seems like poor optics, as some people might say, that Charles was seemingly content with his own sons being given hereditary dukedoms but not with the same treatment for his brother.

On the other hand, it was Elizabeth II who bestowed hereditary dukedoms on Charles's sons, not Charles himself, and it would probably have been seen as poor form if he had criticized her decisions. And above all, I am very pleased that there will be no sexism in the remainder to the newest peerage in the royal family. Yes, I do realize that King Charles's motivation had nothing to do with the sexism of the standard "heirs male of the body" remainder and he was/is reportedly opposed to gender-equal primogeniture. But even if it was not Charles's intention, it least has the potential to set a precedent for Prince Louis's future peerages (if any).

Given that some royal watchers have argued the Life Peerages Act of 1958 made it illegal to create life peerages other than in the rank of baron (I disagree, for reasons I explained here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f114/wessex-titles-32557-13.html#post2526733), it will be interesting to see whether there is any criticism of the life creation.

I agree, but all of the royal reporters are simultaneously posting that he'll be known as Earl of Wessex (and not Forfar) so I think it's been briefed that he will change.

Edit: And the line of succession page that was so important the other day already calls him Earl of Wessex.

Were they specifically briefed that James will not use the Forfar title, or just that he will be known as Earl of Wessex? Prince Edward was usually known as Earl of Wessex but on occasion added the "of Forfar".

What will become of the title of the Earl of Forfar?

Edward remains the holder of the Earldom of Wessex, Earldom of Forfar, and Viscountcy Severn. James, who until now has borrowed his father's title of Viscount Severn as his courtesy title (in accordance with British custom), will now borrow the title of Earl of Wessex as his courtesy title.