Edinburgh and Wessex Titles

[Furienna]

I recently watched the movie "Shakespeare in love" on TV, and after I looked it up on the internet, I found this on Wikipedia.

Inpact on the British Royal Family
It has been reported by The Sunday Telegraph that the film had an impact on the British Royal Family in prompting the revival of the title of Earl of Wessex, which had been extinct since the 11th century. Prince Edward was originally to have been titled Duke of Cambridge following his marriage to Sophie Rhys-Jones in 1999, the year after the film's release. However, after watching Shakespeare in Love, he reportedly became attracted to the title of the character played by Colin Firth, and asked Queen Elizabeth II to be given the title of Earl of Wessex instead.

Was anyone here familiar with this?

 

[Mirabel]

Was anyone here familiar with this?

I was.

That's the reason I never liked it (the title).
It seemed too Hollywood.
I was surprised the Queen went along with it, as she tends to avoid the trendy and anything that seems rather show-business.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

That just sounds so very immature of Edward. What was your source of hearing, Mirabel?

 

[Lumutqueen]

The information given to the telegraph came from a royal historian, someone i've never heard of, so it could have just been that he was trying to get his name in the paper.

 

[muriel]

This theory has been around for some time.

My sense is that the Queen was probably not prepared to make Edward a duke at the time of his wedding, and intended to create him as an Earl. In 1999 when Edward and Sophie married, the BRF was not at its most popular, following soon after all the scandals during the very public disintegration of the marriages of 3 of the Queens children and the public reaction following the death of Diana. There was also pretty widespread commentary on the need to streamline the RF.

Secondly, I would be surprised if Edward actually turned down a dukedom to be created Earl of Wessex just because he liked the title. It may have been that of the potential titles, it may be possible that Edward chose Wessex because of the connection with the film or because he liked the title. Who knows!

 

[sheikah deena]

NO comment , but only what I know I LOVE Shakespeare very very much he’s amazing

 

[Molly2101]

I think he was given an Earldom as opposed to a Dukedom because the Queen hoped that someone he would become the Duke of Edinburgh. The idea that he liked it because of Shakespeare in Love just makes it sound more romantic.

 

[Baroness of Books]

I like the Earl of Wessex title not because of the film (although it was a great film), but because it's such an ancient title. The last Earl of Wessex was William FitzOsbern, who was given the title by William the Conqueror after he defeated King Harold in 1066. The title had passed to Harold from his father before Harold became successor to Edward the Confessor. So you know how far back this title goes, and it's gratifying that it was resurrected after all these centuries. This link gives more background on the title:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Wessex

 

[Mirabel]

That just sounds so very immature of Edward. What was your source of hearing, Mirabel?

It was widely reported at the time. It was said that he was offered a dukedom but asked for that title instead.

I remember reading and just thinking how typical of Edward it was.
He was very much into the film world once; besides, I always thought he was immature (at least at that time).

I also remember reading that Sophie became upset every time the press speculated about their engagement, because the speculation made Edward back off. (I thought that rather immature too).

But perhaps I am biased, since I've never cared for Edward.
(Not since the tantrum he threw over press reaction to his medieval tournament show. I don't like when grown men throw tantrums, it was very unprofessional).

 

[NGalitzine]

Does it really matter where the idea for the Wessex title came from? TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex does sound rather nice, and one day it will be the courtesy title of their son when they become TRH The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.

 

[Mirabel]

Does it really matter where the idea for the Wessex title came from? TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex does sound rather nice, and one day it will be the courtesy title of their son when they become TRH The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.

If they ever do.
Won't that depend on Charles?

 

[Molly2101]

If they ever do.
Won't that depend on Charles?

It does depend on Charles but I really doubt he wouldn't go with his mother's own wishes, considering his own sons will have their own titles (The Prince of Wales/Duke of Cambridge and whatever title Harry gets, likely Sussex). Charles needs to make sure the public like him when he becomes King, and going against his own mother's wishes would not be a good start, given that the Queen is an admired figure. Considering the amount Edward (and Sophie for that matter) do for the award, it would be harsh not to give him the title.

 

[Queen Penelope]

I recall when watching the wedding coverage hearing that the plan was to make him DoE (so that Prince Philip could pass on a title), so I guess an earldom would work better than a dukedom in the interim. Plus, as was stated by others, Edward and Sophie do a lot of work for the DoE awards. Even well before the wedding, I think Edward was already doing work on behalf of the DoE awards (pls correct me if I'm wrong!!! )

 

[Iluvbertie]

I am sure that Charles, if possible, will regrant the Edinburgh title to his brother. He was reportedly in on the plan.

Of course, if it is up to William then all bets are off as he may not honour an agreement made by his father and his grandparents. I hope he would but we simply don't know if he would.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Does it really matter where the idea for the Wessex title came from? TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex does sound rather nice, and one day it will be the courtesy title of their son when they become TRH The Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.

No, it does not REALLY matter where the idea came from. It's just a discussion.

 

[EmpressRouge]

If I remember the movie correctly, the character is only known as Lord Wessex, never mentioning which particular rank he held. It has been logically assumed that he is supposed to be the Earl of Wessex as the title was historically an English earldom. I can believe the story that Edward was influenced by the movie. The Queen wasn't going to mess with with such an ancient and historic title just to elevate her youngest son to be a Duke, since he was going to get Edinburgh eventually and as a royal prince, he ranks above all nobles and his royal "Duke" cousins anyway. Either way, the Earl and Countess of Wessex does sound nice and it's nice to see an old title revived and making a comeback.

 

[Tyger]

That just sounds so very immature of Edward.

What's all the 'immature' stuff about? First I heard of it. I do know that Edward suffered bad press because he left the military. Fact is, Edward has been the son of the Queen (like Anne, her daughter) that has consistently gone his own path, regardless of what others thought. That smacks of backbone - not immaturity. Charles is often faulted for not having made decisions based more on what he wanted than on what others wanted of him. There's no winning for losing in this royal game it seems.

 

[Tiberivs]

If they ever do.
Won't that depend on Charles?

I think it will have more to do with Scotland political standing at the time the title would be "available".

 

[KittyAtlanta]

What's all the 'immature' stuff about? First I heard of it. I do know that Edward suffered bad press because he left the military. Fact is, Edward has been the son of the Queen (like Anne, her daughter) that has consistently gone his own path, regardless of what others thought. That smacks of backbone - not immaturity. Charles is often faulted for not having made decisions based more on what he wanted than on what others wanted of him. There's no winning for losing in this royal game it seems.

Yeah, I knew all that about Edward. My road was the one of Edward saying to HM, Oh Mummy, Mummy, I want to be Wessex. It probably didn't happen that way, but if it did, immature -- no?

 

[Furienna]

What's all the 'immature' stuff about? First I heard of it. I do know that Edward suffered bad press because he left the military. Fact is, Edward has been the son of the Queen (like Anne, her daughter) that has consistently gone his own path, regardless of what others thought. That smacks of backbone - not immaturity. Charles is often faulted for not having made decisions based more on what he wanted than on what others wanted of him. There's no winning for losing in this royal game it seems.

I'm heading off topic here, but... I think it also has to do with Edward being the youngest brother, so he gets the most freedom to "act like he wants", while Charles, the oldest brother, gets almost none at all.

 

[iradavidovna]

Isn't a big part of Wessex, like, Devonshire?

There's the earldom of Forfar as well, which is close to Glamis Castle I think.

Maybe after the 40 years of marriage Edward will get a Northern Irish barony to complete the trifecta.

oh what am I saying? By then he'll probably be the Duke of Edinburgh.

I hope if the Edinburgh title is reissued to him after Charles's accession, that the Scottish title remains Forfar.

 

[iradavidovna]

I found this on a 2004 archived version (the royal.gov.uk)

The Earl of Wessex is the third son and youngest child of The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh. He was born on 10 March 1964 and christened Edward Antony Richard Louis at Buckingham Palace.

Upon his marriage to Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones in 1999, he was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn; at the same time it was announced that His Royal Highness will eventually succeed to the title of The Duke of Edinburgh.

The Earl and Countess of Wessex both carry out many engagements in support of The Queen, and on behalf of a number of organisations with which they are associated.

Their Royal Highnesses have a baby daughter, born on 8 November 2003.

The current version of his bio at Royal.uk does not mention him succeeding to the Edinburgh title.
https://www.royal.uk/the-earl-of-wessex

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I found this on a 2004 archived version (the royal.gov.uk)



The current version of his bio at Royal.uk does not mention him succeeding to the Edinburgh title.
https://www.royal.uk/the-earl-of-wessex

That was wise by royal.uk because "succeeding" is impossible.
As long as Prince Charles is not King, Prince Edward is a looooong way down of "the Heirs of the body male":
1. The Prince Charles
2. Prince William
3. Prince George
4. Prince Louis
5. Prince Harry
6. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor
7. The Prince Andrew
8. The Prince Edward
9. James, Viscount Severn

Is Prince Charles King, then all of his father's titles merge with the Crown.
Then these are free for new creations. But that is not Edward "succeeding" to a title.
That is Edward becoming the 1st holder of a new creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh.

 

[iradavidovna]

That was wise by royal.uk because "succeeding" is impossible.
As long as Prince Charles is not King, Prince Edward is a looooong way down of "the Heirs of the body male":
1. The Prince Charles
2. Prince William
3. Prince George
4. Prince Louis
5. Prince Harry
6. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor
7. The Prince Andrew
8. The Prince Edward
9. James, Viscount Severn

Is Prince Charles King, then all of his father's titles merge with the Crown.
Then these are free for new creations. But that is not Edward "succeeding" to a title.
That is Edward becoming the 1st holder of a new creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh.

Yes, indeed. I thought that was interesting, to see it mentioned on the official website, even a defunct version. I never saw the suggestion on anything else but speculative press reports. So I just thought, huh. Neat.

I'm sure even the writers of the royal website have had their slovenly Monday moods.

 

[Somebody]

Yes, indeed. I thought that was interesting, to see it mentioned on the official website, even a defunct version. I never saw the suggestion on anything else but speculative press reports. So I just thought, huh. Neat.

I'm sure even the writers of the royal website have had their slovenly Monday moods.

It was officially announced that he will be created Duke of Edinburgh; so, not 'speculative press reports' but the queen herself have BP issue such a statement that among other the BBC reported about

I believe the actual statement has recently been posted on TRF.
Edit: Found it. Tatiana Maria posted it a few weeks ago.

A quick search resulted at least in this BBC article (linked by Iluvbertie):

Prince Edward has been made Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn in honour of his marriage to Sophie Rhys-Jones.

Sophie will now be styled Her Royal Highness, the Countess of Wessex, shortened to simply Sophie Wessex.

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes but the problem was the phrase that Edward will succeed which is most unlikely.

The Prince of Wales will succeed to the titles Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich when his father's worldly presence ends during the Queen's Reign.

 

[sophie25]

Yes but the problem was the phrase that Edward will succeed which is most unlikely.

The Prince of Wales will succeed to the titles Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich when his father's worldly presence ends during the Queen's Reign.

No, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's death.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

No, Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's death.

Not true. The LP of Philip's peerages has a remainder which designates the heirs of the body male, lawfully begotten. When the Duke passes away right now, his eldest son is the heir.

When the Duke passes away while his eldest son is King, his peerages will merge with the Crown. Then Charles can create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh with Edward as 1st Duke of the new (4th) creation. James will then once become the 2nd Duke of this 4th creation.

Never will Edward "succeed" to the current 3rd creation, he is so junior (8th!) in the list of heirs to Philip's peerages.

1st creation 1726
The Prince Frederick, 1st Duke of Edinburgh (later Prince of Wales)
The Prince George, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (later King George III)

2nd creation 1866
The Prince Alfred, 1st Duke of Edinburgh

3rd creation 1947
The Prince Philip, 1st Duke of Edinburgh

 

[cmsteepy]

New Titles for the Wessex's?

King Charles has now officially inherited the title Duke of Edinburgh from his mother and now the Cambridge's are now the new Prince & Princess of Wales. There was speculation that the Queen desired to make Edward Duke of Edinburgh upon her passing and it would be King Charles' decision to grant that title to his brother. Has there been any discussion about if and when this may occur? Titles for other members of the immediate family have moved very quickly.

 

[Somebody]

King Charles has now officially inherited the title Duke of Edinburgh from his mother and now the Cambridge's are now the new Prince & Princess of Wales.

That is incorrect. Charles inherited the title Duke of Edinburgh from his father in March last year Upon the death of his mother and him becoming king, that title has merged with the crown, so it is no longer his. Therefore, he is able to recreate it for Edward as was agreed upon in the run up to Edward's marriage.

And the Cambridges still have the title Duke and Duchess of Cambridge (as well as the added title of Duke and Duchess of Cornwall but won't use it anymore) as the Prince of Wales is considered the more senior title.

There was speculation that the Queen desired to make Edward Duke of Edinburgh upon her passing and it would be King Charles' decision to grant that title to his brother. Has there been any discussion about if and when this may occur? Titles for other members of the immediate family have moved very quickly.

There was no speculation, but an official announcement made at the time of Edward and Sophie's wedding. It was the personal wish of his father - as Edward recently revealed in an interview.

And yes, this is being discussed in the British titles thread.