Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[branchg]

So Princess Anne and Prince William could stand for election to Parliament? I mean, that's what "commoners" means in this context, isn't it?

Yes, although The Sovereign would likely issue a royal warrant allowing them to stop using their royal styles and assume a surname (i.e. Lord William Mountbatten-Windsor).

 

[Elspeth]

I am right with you on this LM. I keep remembering from one of her biographies how shocked people at a dinner were when they talked about a picturesque little village in England that had just been bombed. She remarked that it was what they deserved for the way the people of England treated her......actually I think her main gripe was not being made Queen (a title she never fully understood in my opinion) and being refused the title HRH.

I can fully sympathise with the HRH gripe, but not the Queen one - back then the position of the Church on remarriage of divorcees was rigid, and she must have known it.

However, I've read several biographies too (by no means all of them, though) and I must say I don't recall reading about the comment saying she thought those people deserved to be bombed. Do you happen to recall which book it was in?

 

[Menarue]

Elspeth I will have a good hunt for it tomorrow. I have quite a few books about the Windsors and I have a good idea where I will find the quote but first I have to find the book. Some time back I decided to be more organised and have my books in categories and easy to find.........well it was a good idea.

I found it..... The book is "Secret Lives of the Duchess of Windsor WALLIS" by Charles Higham. The page number is 341 and

On 10 May the American journalist and playwright Mrs Henry (Clare Boothe) Luce was in Paris, and was invited to dinner at the Boulevard Suchet. There was a BBC broadcast that Germans had bombed London and coastal villages. Mrs Luce said, "I´ve driven through many of those villages. I hate to see the British so wantonly attacked." The Duchess replied: "After what they did to me, I can´t say I feel sorry for them - a whole nation against a lone woman!"

 

[branchg]

The Higham book was filled with inneundos and inaccuracies about The Duchess and often misquoted other sources. It certainly was not a historical biography of Wallis.

While it's true she certainly expressed bitterness about the way she and The Duke were treated, it was more from the standpoint of the royal family, rather than the British people or the nation. Also, she was not particularly well-disposed towards England in the first place. The weather bothered her and, as an American, she disliked the rigid class structure and formalities that went with it.

If she had a choice, it's very likely they would have settled in the U.S., but since that was not an option, they ended up in France, where The Duchess felt most comfortable. The Duke was never enamoured of the French or their culture, believing British and German (and later American) attitudes were the best.

As far as her title and style goes, Wallis always made it clear publicly and privately that she never cared about the HRH and was content as Her Grace. But she also made it clear that her husband was very hurt by the refusal to give her equal rank and highly insulted.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I can easily believe Wallis never cared about the HRH, and can equally believe David was more touchy about it. To her, the implications must have been nothing, while to him, the implications had deep roots. Personally, I think it stinks. It made their union a morganatic one, which had no reason. It made what should have been a matter of course, a matter of protocol (wife of HRH Duke = HRH Duchess), into an excuse to give a personal insult. It should not have been personal. It was more than unprofessional. It was petty.

 

[Zonk]

Yes, it was rather petty....but I think everyone needs to consider the times. Divorce was so frowned upon in the 1930's and to think that the King of England wanted to marry a divorcee with TWO living ex husbands. For all they knew, the marriage would have lasted three to five years, and then she could have moved on to the next husband and then what she be, HRH, Wallis, Mr. Thomas Lester? It was unknown territory.

I totally blame Edward for this...I can appreciate and understand him wanting to marry the women he loved. But it was his country, his people, he should have known that she would have been accepted as his companion, mistress but not his wife. She might have lived in Britain for quite some time but she was not English. Heck, from what I understand...the Scottish and the Irish don't consider themselves to be English (not to offend anyone by the comment). So he was going to marry some American with two living ex husbands?

And from what I understand based upon some books that I have read....Edward and Ernest (2nd husband) had the discussion about the triangle, marriage and divorce without her. I think she would have been content to remain Mrs. Edward Simpson, with the jewels and power that were afforded her being the "mistress" of the King.

 

[branchg]

Exactly. I think George VI genuinely felt, as his mother and wife certainly did, that Wallis could not be trusted to stay married and committed to The Duke as a loyal wife, given her history and character. Finding a way to avoid conferring royal status on her was felt to be extremely important to rebuilding the image of the monarchy after the shock of the Abdication.

I do feel, however, the vendetta should have ended with time. By the 1960's, The Queen should have rectified the matter and granted Wallis what was rightfully hers.

 

[Elspeth]

It's sort of ironic that one of the excuses put forward for withholding the HRH was that it would be unacceptable for her to divorce Edward and still be HRH. They were fast enough to yank the HRH from Fergie when she divorced, which shows pretty well that the King (or the present Queen) could have removed Wallis's HRH if she divorced Edward, and no doubt there'd have been a lot of public sympathy. I think this was just another excuse, however plausible it sounded.

I think it's really unfortunate that the hypocrisy of keeping a mistress is considered acceptable but the honesty of wanting to marry is not.

 

[Menarue]

The Higham book was filled with inneundos and inaccuracies about The Duchess and often misquoted other sources. It certainly was not a historical biography of Wallis.
As far as her title and style goes, Wallis always made it clear publicly and privately that she never cared about the HRH and was content as Her Grace. But she also made it clear that her husband was very hurt by the refusal to give her equal rank and highly insulted.

I think the you have it wrong, nearly all her biographies say how she was really put out about not being HRH and it was said that it was strange that she was, as she had attained the exalted rank of Duchess which was not a title to sneeze at. As to being called Your Grace, anyone who called her that was not invited again. When anyone addressed her by anything but HRH they were put straight immediately. Whatever is said they were not a lovable couple, they were mean with money and although could be considered very well off indeed they considered themselves poor. The Duke was very reluctant to pay for anything except entertainment and travel and cothes and jewellery for his wife, they ran down France and the French but accepted the virtually free mansion while they were doing it. They rarely entertained, and it is true they were rarely entertained by, anyone of noble French birth, they preferred playboys, good time company and actors and above all the very rich.
Wallis had her good points, she was an excellent lady of the house, everything was done to perfection and she dressed beautifully (except for her wedding dress). Whether she made Edward happy or not, he enjoyed giving in to her every whim, so that might be the happiest he could be. He was very upset at her flirtation with Jimmy Donohue... He was her adoring slave, she broke a nail, the ex-King of England ran to get a file and fix it for her. It might not make other men happy but he liked doing this. The one thing that it is said she nagged him about,was her title, he found he could only give her this in private company and that made him quite frustrated, why else would an ex-King pester the King and Prime Minister of Britain in the middle of an extremely desperate and bloody war for survival about a better title for his wife? She herself, in one of her auto-biographies, said that it sounded very petty but that it was very important to him. More important that the fate of his country?

 

[branchg]

The Duke was the one who always insisted on The Duchess being addressed as "Your Royal Highness" by staff and any guests. She herself never imposed this. However, The Duke was extremely irritated by anyone who refused to do so.

Indeed, when they were in the Bahamas as representatives of The Sovereign, she was always addressed as Your Grace (except perhaps by their personal staff when they were alone).

 

[Menarue]

Probably because in the Bahamas the people surrounding them were more mindful of official instructions.....
It was after their "official appointments" and were in other "climes" that it was insisted on. I believe you when you say that she never insisted on this herself, she didn´t need to, she had her husband insisting on it constantly for her....

 

[Zonk]

It's sort of ironic that one of the excuses put forward for withholding the HRH was that it would be unacceptable for her to divorce Edward and still be HRH. They were fast enough to yank the HRH from Fergie when she divorced, which shows pretty well that the King (or the present Queen) could have removed Wallis's HRH if she divorced Edward, and no doubt there'd have been a lot of public sympathy. I think this was just another excuse, however plausible it sounded.

I think it's really unfortunate that the hypocrisy of keeping a mistress is considered acceptable but the honesty of wanting to marry is not.

Yes, I totally agree about the hypocrisy but it was the 1930's! But its wasn't just the English...didn't a couple of the Swedish Princes lose their titles when they married beneath them (and without the consent of the monarch it should be added).

And I think that both Fergie and Diana should have lost the HRH when they divorced but it was 50 years laters...times and attitudes have changed a great deal. Honestly....I think that each royal house has learned valuable lessons as a result of the Windsors. An excellent example was Princess Alexandra, who after her divorce became a HH.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I It made what should have been a matter of course, a matter of protocol (wife of HRH Duke = HRH Duchess), into an excuse to give a personal insult. It should not have been personal. It was more than unprofessional. It was petty.

Yes, but I think I can understand George VI. He (and his womenfolk) was deeply shocked by the Abdication but felt still loyal to his brother, so wanted him (against the wishes of the politicians) to have the HRH. When you read the protocolls of the granting of the Letters Patent, you'll see that the king insisted on a HRH for his brother while the politicians thought the Abdication Act had reduced the former king to Mr. Edward Windsor, private citizen. So if it wasn't for the king and the RF, Wallis would have been Mrs. Wallis Windsor, nothing more as rank goes. So in a way I can understand that they accepted the Duchess, but not the HRH.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Y
And I think that both Fergie and Diana should have lost the HRH when they divorced but it was 50 years laters...times and attitudes have changed a great deal. Honestly....I think that each royal house has learned valuable lessons as a result of the Windsors. An excellent example was Princess Alexandra, who after her divorce became a HH.

But Fergie and Diana lost their HRH after their divorce.
Here's the quote form the London Gazette:

Buckingham Palace
The Queen has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm dated 21st August 1996, to declare that a former wife (other than a widow until she shall remarry) of a son of a Sovereign of these Realms, of a son of a son of a Sovereign and of the eldest living son of the eldest son of The Prince of Wales shall not be entitled to hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness.

(London Gazette, issue 54510, Aug 30, 1996, p. 1/11603.)

And who's Princess Alexandra? The only Princess Alexandra I know is not divorced, but widowed and her official title since 2003 is: Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra Helen Elizabeth Olga Christabel of Kent, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy, Royal Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order.

 

[Elspeth]

I think Zonk is referring to Princess Alexandra of Denmark, Jo (Prince Joachim's ex-wife). She became a Highness rather than a Royal Highness after the divorce but before her remarriage. In Britain I'm pretty sure the Highness style isn't used any more.

 

[Empress]

I think that Zonk is referring to the former Princess Alexandra of Denmark, now Countess of Frederiksborg, the former wife of Prince Joachim. She was granted the title of Her Highness Princess Alexandra of Denmark, Countess of Frederiksborg until her remarriage, at which point she lost the right to HH and Princess.

She was created a Countess in her own right, however the title is banded to her, and will not pass to her children.

She will however continue to have quite a substantial apenage from the country until she dies, I suspect because she is popular, the mother of two princes, and she still carries out some duties for the Royal family.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think Zonk is referring to Princess Alexandra of Denmark, Jo (Prince Joachim's ex-wife). She became a Highness rather than a Royal Highness after the divorce but before her remarriage. In Britain I'm pretty sure the Highness style isn't used any more.

Oh, I wasn't thinking of her, because Denmark has a different system of conferring titles than Britain. But thank you very much for the hint.

 

[branchg]

Probably because in the Bahamas the people surrounding them were more mindful of official instructions.....
It was after their "official appointments" and were in other "climes" that it was insisted on. I believe you when you say that she never insisted on this herself, she didn´t need to, she had her husband insisting on it constantly for her....

He stopped insisting on it after they settled permanently in France in the early 1950's. For one thing, it hardly mattered much since they were not considered to be members of the royal family nor where they living in England. Secondly, Wallis was usually granted the courtesy of being addressed as such, including a curtsey, as a matter of form.

Their life gradually become one of very wealthy socialites who traveled a lot. You don't need to be HRH for that.

 

[Al_bina]

Duke of Windsor recollected meeting Mrs.Wallis Simpson
YouTube - Duke of Windsor - discusses meeting Wallis

 

[Jeniann]

That accent has to be fake. I'm from Virginia and my father and all his family on his mother's side grew up in the Baltimore area, also as one of those "old" families like Wallis and none of them talk anything like that. She almost sounds like Katherine Hepburn. You think she was trying to make herself seem more pretentious?

 

[Russophile]

I don't know. I have been searching YouTube for more videos to compare but I haven't found anything else!

 

[MARG]

That accent has to be fake. I'm from Virginia and my father and all his family on his mother's side grew up in the Baltimore area, also as one of those "old" families like Wallis and none of them talk anything like that. She almost sounds like Katherine Hepburn. You think she was trying to make herself seem more pretentious?

I think we have to remember that they lived pre-TV.

Since the advent of the dreaded box,accents all over the world have been subtley changing. In Britain real Cockney Rhyming Slang no longer exists. Just as the Yorkshire or Devonshire accent is a lot more blurred so too is the difference between a Scot from Glasgow or Edinborough. A Northern Ireland accent is no longer quite as distinct from Ireland anymore.

I am guessing that the same is also true of America. Do they really have people that talk like the Beverly Hillbillies anymore?

I was told that the world was becoming more cosmopolitan and the immediacy of communication reflects in the spoken word. That may well be true, but I think the world is a less gracious place and all the poorer for it.

 

[Menarue]

That is the very first time I have heard Wallis speaking and she does sound just like Katherine Hepburn. At the time of the wedding and after, people in England were saying that Edward had a slightly American accent. I can´t hear it, but perhaps someone can hear what they were talking about. I noticed that he pronounced Leicestershire slightly differently from anyone I have heard say it...I´ll have to listen to it again more carefully.

 

[Elspeth]

It's possible that her accent changed because of living with an Englishman for all those years, to say nothing of living in France and being around people who spoke English with a French accent.

 

[Russophile]

I am guessing that the same is also true of America. Do they really have people that talk like the Beverly Hillbillies anymore?

Um, yes MARG, we do. . . .

 

[Mermaid1962]

To me, the Duke of Windsor sounds very much like any Royal British person from that era. The Duchess sounds slightly New England-ish as well as Southern, although she has a posh pronounciation of the word "danced." The "a" sounds more like "aaaaah".

That is the very first time I have heard Wallis speaking and she does sound just like Katherine Hepburn. At the time of the wedding and after, people in England were saying that Edward had a slightly American accent. I can´t hear it, but perhaps someone can hear what they were talking about. I noticed that he pronounced Leicestershire slightly differently from anyone I have heard say it...I´ll have to listen to it again more carefully.

 

[MARG]

Um, yes MARG, we do. . . .

No TV huh?

 

[BeatrixFan]

What's interesting here is that Wallis has obviously gone through a kind of 'Windsor-Matic 2000' where her hair is perfectly coiffed in an updo that doesn't move, her voice has a hint of an American accent but for the most part she carries off an English upper crust tone quite well and her posture is as good as Princess Alexandra's. The contrast comes when the Duke speaks because he's using that ridiculous Windsor English that now seems caracaturist and over-done but then was THE accent of the ruling classes. And I think thats what British accents have more than any other native accents - class attachments. I'd disagree that the inidiginous regional accents of England are blurred but I'd agree that they have changed, on all sides.

Look at the Queen, when she speaks it's no longer with that nasal Joyce Grenfell school-teacher whine that she used to use when delivering speeches back in the 50s. Her voice has got deeper with age of course but when she speaks she doesn't say things like "over thar" and "heyse" instead of 'house'. The only remnant of her coronation-days accent is her occassional 'orf'. Cockney rhyming slang is still in use but the words have entered the stock vocabulary of most English people so it isn't as noticable as it was back in the 50s when you had pockets of working class people in the East End predominately speaking with Alf Garnett tones.

Now we have a very different view on class. Jade Goody doesn't speak well at all, she's got an English Estuary accent but she's more wealthy than some aristocrats. Similarly, William and Harry apparantly don't speak with a plummy voice at all but they are Princes. I think the video of David and Wallis shows perfectly how class attitudes have changed in Britain, it's fascinating.

 

[Russophile]

No TV huh?

Oh there's plenty of TV, just a lot of y'alls thrown in, though I have yet to hear a "Wooo doggies!"
Just like England, we have our own inflections. People back east call my state Ory-gone. Where as natives call it Ory-gun. The Willamette River to them is the Will-a-met and Lake Oswego where I live is Lake Os-waygo.
When I was in Italy it was interesting to hear their inflections as well. Northern Italy was Bourn Giorno. Rome was Booouuurrrn Giiiiiorrrrno with an almost sing-song voice.
Someday I will meet you Sam, in London and you can point out all those fascinating inflections to me! I'll buy!

 

[Al_bina]

BBC NEWS | UK | Edward VIII's links to a mystic

Further evidence has emerged that King Edward VIII was seeing a mystic during the abdication crisis, prompting the Archbishop of Canterbury to intervene.
Previously undisclosed archives tell the story of a king in the grip of a man known as "The Yorkshire Yogi". ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7767919.stm