Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[CyrilVladisla]

H.R.H. Edward Prince of Wales spoke about The Poppy Appeal in 1934.

 

[Carin]

Having watched the docudrama, I have a tiny bit mor sympathy for Wallis. her first husband was an abusive drunk, and she suffered in the marriage. However, I think the experience hardened her. She was tougher with Ernest, and I think she ended by alienating him.. Even though he loved her, he got fed up iwht her affair with Edward, and how it took over her life.. She and he grew apart and ended up with tehir divorce when perhaps they could have saved their marriage..

Because of the DOW's obsession with Wallis, I really don't think her marriage could have been saved. If the DOW had had any decency and respect for the institution of marriage, he would have left Wallis alone, and found himself a wife. I am sure he could have found an aristocratic or minor royal for a wife if he had really exerted himself. By the way, I don't think much of any one (royal or not) who is unfaithful to his/her spouse.

 

[Denville]

Because of the DOW's obsession with Wallis, I really don't think her marriage could have been saved. If the DOW had had any decency and respect for the institution of marriage, he would have left Wallis alone, and found himself a wife. I am sure he could have found an aristocratic or minor royal for a wife if he had really exerted himself. By the way, I don't think much of any one (royal or not) who is unfaithful to his/her spouse.

of course he could have found a wife.. but he didn't want anyone but Wallis. I don't think she realised how obsessed he was at first, She thought the affair would be a bit of fun, and she'd end up with some jewellery and go back to Ernest when Ed became King. But Edward wanted her and nobody else. And Ernest had overlooked the affair, for a time but the W had left him alone too long and he was involved with the woman he later married.. so he was willing to give her a divorce...
I think she was a bit panicked realising that the whole things had gotten out of hand but when she knew that Edward would not give her up and Ernest had moved on, she made the best of it and married him.

 

[MARG]

^^^^^ The set they moved in was known to be fast or racy, and it is only time that has exposed the true depth of utter moral bankruptcy.

I've read post in other threads that adultery etc. Was the norm in aristocratic and royal circles. What nonsense. None of David's friends would have dreamt of bringing their mistresses to Windsor. Fort Belvedere, David's home, yes absolutely

Most of the Royals at that time were pretty ordinary, like the York's
A happy, healthy family doing what all good CofE folk did, namely going to church on Sundays, bringing their children up to be good upstanding adults. And the York's were a happy little family, and Britain had yet to adopt the attitude of 'you can never be too rich or too think.

I think that is why Wallis saved her sarcasm and spite for the Duchess who she called Cookie as she considered her

 

[Furienna]

^^^^^ The set they moved in was known to be fast or racy, and it is only time that has exposed the true depth of utter moral bankruptcy.

I've read post in other threads that adultery etc. Was the norm in aristocratic and royal circles. What nonsense. None of David's friends would have dreamt of bringing their mistresses to Windsor. Fort Belvedere, David's home, yes absolutely

Most of the Royals at that time were pretty ordinary, like the York's
A happy, healthy family doing what all good CofE folk did, namely going to church on Sundays, bringing their children up to be good upstanding adults. And the York's were a happy little family, and Britain had yet to adopt the attitude of 'you can never be too rich or too think.

I think that is why Wallis saved her sarcasm and spite for the Duchess who she called Cookie as she considered her

Actually, Bertie also had an affair with a married woman until his father put an end to that. He might have been more careful than David with showing it off in public, but still...

 

[sndral]

Actually, Bertie also had an affair with a married woman until his father put an end to that. He might have been more careful than David with showing it off in public, but still...

Ah, Sheila, the Australian, fascinating life story https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ho...g/news-story/4a7054def0a91d7255fc376a2a162667
The difference being Bertie’s fling seemed a one off, whereas David seemed to specialize in married women w/ Freda, Thelma, then Wallis.
At the time Sheila and Freda, David’s married lover, were best friends and the 2 ‘couples’ often made up a foursome, thus I suspect Bertie was in part influenced by his brother.

 

[MARG]

The article is hidden behind a paywall. However, I would need more than an account from a newspaper. Is there any actual evidence?

 

[Denville]

Ah, Sheila, the Australian, fascinating life story https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ho...g/news-story/4a7054def0a91d7255fc376a2a162667
The difference being Bertie’s fling seemed a one off, whereas David seemed to specialize in married women w/ Freda, Thelma, then Wallis.
At the time Sheila and Freda, David’s married lover, were best friends and the 2 ‘couples’ often made up a foursome, thus I suspect Bertie was in part influenced by his brother.

Upper class women did not indulge in affairs prior to marriage, For David to have had sexual relatonships with single upper class girls would still have been scandalous even in the 1930s. Bertie was just following normal upper class tradition In that a married upper class woman was available for liasions but a single one wasn't. By and large, it was either women of a lower class like actresses (they could be single) or married upper class women. David was only slightly unusual in that he was expected to marry suitably and settle down, and by the time he met Mrs Simpson, he had shown few signs of wanting to make a sutiable marriage..

 

[sndral]

The article is hidden behind a paywall. However, I would need more than an account from a newspaper. Is there any actual evidence?

Sorry about that, I wonder why it wasn’t behind a paywall for me. Try this one https://www.sbs.com.au/news/a-sheila-who-captured-london-s-heart
I haven’t read the biography the article is about yet, but it appears the author had access to a few letters she received from Bertie and in other articles from 2014/2015 when the biography was published I recall seeing a photo of David, Bertie, Freda, and Sheila.
Edited to add: Found one of the articles w/ photos, note, I don’t consider the DM a trustworthy source, but this article quotes a portion of the biography including letters from Bertie to Sheila and from David to Freda about Bertie & Sheila plus it has a few photos.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-2544791/The-society-beauty-beguiled-future-king.html

 

[ladongas]

This book is on Amazon for $6.99, and you can get a free sample on your Kindle.

 

[sndral]

Thanks, looks like an interesting read.

 

[Furienna]

Upper class women did not indulge in affairs prior to marriage, For David to have had sexual relatonships with single upper class girls would still have been scandalous even in the 1930s. Bertie was just following normal upper class tradition In that a married upper class woman was available for liasions but a single one wasn't. By and large, it was either women of a lower class like actresses (they could be single) or married upper class women. David was only slightly unusual in that he was expected to marry suitably and settle down, and by the time he met Mrs Simpson, he had shown few signs of wanting to make a sutiable marriage..

Yes, indeed. It will sound strange today, and George V didn't like that his sons did it. But it was hardly uncommon within those circles to have an affair with a married woman. And it seems like Bertie was only an inch away from becoming as scandalous as David.

 

[MARG]

Hmm, being a married woman was not the only criteria for a lover. She needed to have provided an heir and ideally, a spare. Royal bastards resulting in a divorce were the last thing the family wanted.

All of which makes me think that David and Wallis were not concerned about an inconvenient pregnancy which leads one to conclude that either way, Elizabeth would still have been our Queen.

 

[Denville]

Hmm, being a married woman was not the only criteria for a lover. She needed to have provided an heir and ideally, a spare. Royal bastards resulting in a divorce were the last thing the family wanted.

All of which makes me think that David and Wallis were not concerned about an inconvenient pregnancy which leads one to conclude that either way, Elizabeth would still have been our Queen.

Ideally yes, a married woman was supposed to have provided an heir and a spare.. but not all women did this. Jennie Jerome's second son was reputed to be fathered by someone else...
and by the 1930s, with improved contraception, it was less of an issue. Wallis may have been infertile or unable to have children.....

 

[duchessrachel]

I am currently reading "The Viceroy's Daughters" about the Curzon sisters. One of them was married to the Duke of Windsor's best friend, Fruity Metcalfe. I have read two books on him, but it is so interesting reading some details about Edward VIII's abdication and life as the Duke of Windsor from the perspective of his friends.

Edited: I accidentally called the Curzons the Mitfords.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

duchessrachel, Was Fruity Metcalfe a friend of Gladys Vanderbilt Szecheny, Countess Szecheny? Was the Countess introduced to Prince Edward?

 

[ladongas]

I am currently reading "The Viceroy's Daughters" about the Mitford sisters. One of them was married to the Duke of Windsor's best friend, Fruity Metcalfe. I have read two books on him, but it is so interesting reading some details about Edward VIII's abdication and life as the Duke of Windsor from the perspective of his friends.

I loved this book, but didn’t you mean the Curzon sisters? They were very naughty girls.

 

[duchessrachel]

I loved this book, but didn’t you mean the Curzon sisters? They were very naughty girls.

Yes, I meant the Curzon sisters. Crazy me was thinking to myself, "type Curzon and not Mitford" and I still typed Mitford. . I will edit my post. I really enjoyed Baba Curzon Metcalfe's detailed diary entries about the Windsor wedding weekend. Yes, those girls had very loose morals.

 

[duchessrachel]

duchessrachel, Was Fruity Metcalfe a friend of Gladys Vanderbilt Szecheny, Countess Szecheny? Was the Countess introduced to Prince Edward?

I am not finished with the book yet, but I don't remember seeing mention of a Countess Szecheny in there unless I missed it. I don't have my book handy right now so I will look tomorrow. There is talk of the Vanderbilts a little.

 

[duchessrachel]

duchessrachel, Was Fruity Metcalfe a friend of Gladys Vanderbilt Szecheny, Countess Szecheny? Was the Countess introduced to Prince Edward?

I looked at the part of the book I had read and there is no mention of Countess Szecheny.

 

[Denville]

Yes, indeed. It will sound strange today, and George V didn't like that his sons did it. But it was hardly uncommon within those circles to have an affair with a married woman. And it seems like Bertie was only an inch away from becoming as scandalous as David.

there was nothing scandalous about it, provided it was done discreetly. If the husband tolerated his wife's affair, and wasn't going to go in for divorce, and preferably if it iddn't result in any pregnancies a discreet affair was acceptable. nad at the time, the Press were not going to report on any extra marital liasions by the RF

 

[Curryong]

Bertie didn't go from married woman to married woman though (as well as some singletons) in the way that David did. Shelagh Loughborough was the only married flirtation known for the Duke of York. From 1917 to 1936 David was never without a married lady on hand.

 

[Mbruno]

Actually, Bertie also had an affair with a married woman until his father put an end to that. He might have been more careful than David with showing it off in public, but still...

And up to Edward VII at least, having mistresses or affairs with married women was rather common in the Royal Family. The practice was resumed by George V's sons and in Queen Elizabeth II's children's generation.

 

[Denville]

Bertie didn't go from married woman to married woman though (as well as some singletons) in the way that David did. Shelagh Loughborough was the only married flirtation known for the Duke of York. From 1917 to 1936 David was never without a married lady on hand.

Since Bertie got married in 1923 - unless he was going to be an unfaithful husband, he wasn't likely to continue to have affairs after that date. David was still single.. and if he wanted a society woman as companion and "partner" as we would say now, she had to be or have been married. It woudlnt' have been acceptable for him to have a longtime companion society girl who was single.

 

[Curryong]

While we know that David didn't want to marry, for all sorts of reasons which we all know about, there was a chance, a slim one but still a chance, that some vivacious and witty single English woman could have caught his eye. I don't mean a deb, but someone in their twenties from foreign or British nobility. If he had met someone like that before Wallis, and married her, then he needn't have continued to trawl around the married women in his circles. However many married women he had had there was always that chance while he remained a bachelor.

 

[Denville]

I don't think that David wanted a conventional marriage to a well bred English girl - but generally if he wanted a sexual partner who was not just a lover but also someone to share his life, provide him with company and something of home life and share his social life, she was going to have to be a married woman. It was not likely in the 1920s or even 30s that he would have had any kind of serious affair with a single upper class girl.
with a married woman, if there was gossip that he was seeing too much of her, she had a husband - and so the press and public knew that he could not marry this lady... and if there had been a pregnancy, she had a husband who would accept responsibility...
I don't kow of his having any single girls as mistresses.... if he was sexually involved with a society girl, it would only have been a very brief under the radar dalliance. And I think that David wanted a bit more than just a sexual affair.. he wanted a companion who would fill up his life, listen to his moaning and provide him with company and a home..

I think that David did not want a girl as wife.. he wanted a mature woman who would give him something of the maternal care he felt he didn't get from his own mother.. I think for a time Freda DW suited him very well, she was safely married.. She had daughters he was fond of.. so he could have some home life, but without full scale commitment..
and then when he met Wallis, I think there was that "wanting a mother/wife" thing.. but Wallis was also more unconventional because of her being American.. and with no children she was freer to walk out of her marriage if he wanted her to....

 

[Curryong]

I didn't say that David wanted single girls as mistresses, or that it was possible for him to have had them (though I think he may well have slept with Poppy Baring.)

What I said in the previous post was that while David remained a bachelor and before he fell deeply in love with Wallis, there was always a chance that a charming and witty English or foreign noble woman could have caught his eye.

If he had married someone like that then (as happened with other royals) his married mistresses would have faded into the background. Not every English or foreign woman in Edward's circle was married by the age of 21. There were suitable single women around in their mid to late twenties or even early thirties.

 

[Denville]

I didn't say that David wanted single girls as mistresses, or that it was possible for him to have had them (though I think he may well have slept with Poppy Baring.)

What I said in the previous post was that while David remained a bachelor and before he fell deeply in love with Wallis, there was always a chance that a charming and witty English or foreign noble woman could have caught his eye.

If he had married someone like that then (as happened with other royals) his married mistresses would have faded into the background. Not every English or foreign woman in Edward's circle was married by the age of 21. There were suitable single women around in their mid to late twenties or even early thirties.

but we don't know...do we? If he had met some well bred gel and married her... I suspect it would all depend on how the marriage worked out. Bertie wasn't likely to fool around.. but I don't know about David. He was faithful to wallis but he was truly crazily obsessed with her.. so having her, I suppose he did not want any other woman ( Not sure if she was entirely faithful to him)…
I just can't imagine it happening though..
I think that he just wasn't going to do what was expected of him, as a future king and married a princess or upper class lady. I think that by the time he met Wallis, he had really lost any taste he might have had for English girls and he wanted something different to what he could find in English society...

 

[MARG]

His position on duty was very clear to his father who was said to have remarked that David would ruin himself and the monarchy within a year. If he did indeed day that, he was remarkably prescient.

But then again it is not as if David's excesses, dereliction of duty and scandalous behaviour was any secret in the aristocracy and he seemed to love rubbing George and Mary's noses in it.

 

[Denville]

I'd hardly call them excesses, and while he grew neglectful of royal duties when he became King, I don't think he was bad at the royal job, when he was POW. He was finding it increasingly boring and sometimes didn't work hard at it… but he had done a lot of tours as POW...