Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)


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I believe it possible that the failed to develop intellectually beyond adolescence-which may explain why, with a war being waged around him, his first concern was Wallis' lack of title.
 
Ive heard people say that Hitler did some good things and wasn't all bad. Mostly from historians and philosophers. Unless Edward specifically said, "Hitler killing all those Jews was a good thing, God Bless Adolf Hitler" I'm not going to call him a Nazi sympathizer. From what I have read about Edward and his personality, it tends to make sense that he would be open to anyone who treated he and Wallis with respect; as well as to do anything that would piss off his family in England. But I still don't see that as making him a nazi sympathizer or wanting the nazis to win the war. Do I hate Hitler, yes; do I hate Edward for his opinions on him? No; especially not in a family who have racist and anti-semitic ideas of their own especially the older brigade. I still respect The Queen Mother, Prince Philip, and the Duke of Windsor despite some of their 19th century ideals.
 
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XeniaCasaraghi said:
Ive heard people say that Hitler did some good things and wasn't all bad. Mostly from historians and philosophers. Unless Edward specifically said, "Hitler killing all those Jews was a good thing, God Bless Adolf Hitler" I'm not going to call him a Nazi sympathizer. Do I hate Hitler, yes; do I hate Edward for his opinions on him? No; especially not in a family who have racist and anti-semitic ideas of their own especially the older brigade. I still respect The Queen Mother, Prince Philip, and the Duke of Windsor despite some of their 19th century ideals.
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hitler say too : "i kill for you first half from jews so you know why i keep another half"
he was bad because he kill half germans , he not good very much , no body love hitler
 
XeniaCasaraghi said:
Ive heard people say that Hitler did some good things and wasn't all bad. Mostly from historians and philosophers. Unless Edward specifically said, "Hitler killing all those Jews was a good thing, God Bless Adolf Hitler" I'm not going to call him a Nazi sympathizer. From what I have read about Edward and his personality, it tends to make sense that he would be open to anyone who treated he and Wallis with respect; as well as to do anything that would piss off his family in England. But I still don't see that as making him a nazi sympathizer or wanting the nazis to win the war. Do I hate Hitler, yes; do I hate Edward for his opinions on him? No; especially not in a family who have racist and anti-semitic ideas of their own especially the older brigade. I still respect The Queen Mother, Prince Philip, and the Duke of Windsor despite some of their 19th century ideals.
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Hitler was despicable, a monster, and I cannot see how anyone can say anything good about him. His crimes were of such enormity that anyone saying anything slightly complimentary calls that person's mindset into question, especially after the public learned what Hitler was capable of doing and what he did.

I don't have much sympathy for the Duke of Windsor. He made his bed, and then he didn't want to lie in it afterwards.
 
Actually he lied in it quite well and was happy with it and his wife. And I never said Edward was mature for any age, he had serious problem and issues especially with his parents.
 
XeniaCasaraghi said:
Actually he lied in it quite well and was happy with it and his wife. And I never said Edward was mature for any age, he had serious problem and issues especially with his parents.
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My dear Xenia Casaraghi,

You are right about him appearing to be happy in his marriage. I think it was a relief to Edward to relinquish the duties and obligations of the crown but still, I believe he missed all the trappings and perks that came with the office and that, coupled with the lack of a royal title for his wife, made him unhappy.
 
I wonder, if Edward had been allowed to live in Germany after the Abdication and joined the Nazi Party (I know the British government would have never allowed that but this is hypothetical) like some German royals did, would he have suffered the same fate as they did, most notably his Hessian cousins (Philipp and Christoph, the latter being married the Duke of Edinburgh's sister Sophie)?
I've started "Royals and the Reich" about the Hessian princes, and it mentioned how Hitler loved to recruit and befriend royals to give prestige to his party (and a former King of the United Kingdom would have been icing on the cake). But he hated when royal star power eclipsed his own (and Edward had been the Diana of his day as Prince of Wales), and as the war progressed, distanced himself and even turned against the royals (Philipp of Hesse, who had been a trusted governor and Italian liaison, was arrested in 1943).
Shipping the Windsors off the Bahamas during the war helped Britain, but it might have saved the Windsors themselves from falling out of favor with Hitler had they been more directly involved with the Nazis as their Hessian cousins had.
 
Vasillisos Markos said:
Hitler was despicable, a monster, and I cannot see how anyone can say anything good about him. His crimes were of such enormity that anyone saying anything slightly complimentary calls that person's mindset into question, especially after the public learned what Hitler was capable of doing and what he did.
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This will upset some people here but anyone who earnt the Iron Cross during WWI was a brave soldier and in anyone's eyes any soldier who served as a runner on either side definitely was. It is only one thing but does show that at some stage in his life he was capable of doing something good.

Later on he was a monster certainly but he did have a hint of goodness in the 1914 - 1918 period - strange yes but brave at that times - yes.
 
Iluvbertie said:
This will upset some people here but anyone who earnt the Iron Cross during WWI was a brave soldier and in anyone's eyes any soldier who served as a runner on either side definitely was. It is only one thing but does show that at some stage in his life he was capable of doing something good.

Later on he was a monster certainly but he did have a hint of goodness in the 1914 - 1918 period - strange yes but brave at that times - yes.
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My father served in the US Army during World War II, he was shot, injured and awarded The Purple Heart fighting Hitler's goodness and bravery.

Millions of people died in concentration camps because of Hitler's hint of goodness and bravery, millions died on the battlefield defending against Hitler's hint of goodness and bravery.

Tens of thousands were operated on in horrendous medical experiments, without anesthesia, males have their testicles removed, the list is rather long of the barbarity involved in just this corner of his hint of goodness and bravery.

How many people died in the Blitz in London alone because of his hint of goodness and bravery?

I find your post attributing positive characteristics to this supreme war criminal disgusting.

To the moderator staff, I am usually quite nice and kind, but I cannot hold my tongue here and I mean every word I am posting.
 
I can't stand how people just want to look at one aspect of a persons life and refuse to hear anything about any other aspect. Adolf Hitler was not born an evil maniac mass murderer, he was just at a time just a normal guy who was loved within his family and had hopes and dreams like everyone else. At least there are some people here who have the capacity to recognize that a person's life has numerous aspects. Millions of people died during WWII, nobody is on here saying Hitler was a saint of an admirable person with his staunch hatred and inability to recognize the value of every human life. Unfortunately when you bring up the name Hitler, people automatically go for the knee jerk reaction "evil, hate him, monster" and don't bother to delve a little deeper into how the heck he became that man; and who was he prior to 1933. Gawd forbid someone say anything good about him, because apparently it is just incomprehensible that someone who did such evil things could have some aspects of good about his life. We just have to create this characture that fits perfectly into the little box we are safe with. I have read and heard a few people, especially in college settings, say they admire some of Hitler's abilities, especially in the political arena and public speaking. But just because someone says the man was a good public speaker, doesn't mean they excuse the horrible things he did and the millions of deaths he caused. Bertie as to your comment about Hitler during WWI, I admit I know little about Hitler during WWI except that he was pissed at the German govt. and blamed them for giving up the fight. Did he himself serve as a runner? I never heard that before, in my defense, my historical interest tend to not be focused on Germany.
 
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We seem to be getting off track. The point I was trying to make was Edward's positive comment about Hitler was not an acknowledgment of Hitler's service or valor during World War I. I think Edward's comments show either he was totally out of touch with how other people viewed Hitler, or he really did not think Hitler was that bad of a chap. Either way, it shows Edward was quite stupid about many things and judging a person's character seems to be one of them. And it also shows Edward's insensitivity about what the English people endured while fighting Hitler. The man was a megalomaniac and a mass murderer.
 
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Lenora said:
New speculation about Wallis Simpson revealed -"she was not entirely a woman,having men features"(one of the most strangest news I've ever heard,these speculations seem odd and unreal to me):
Was Wallis Simpson all woman? There's been dark speculation about her sexual make-up. Now in a major reassessment her biographer uncovers new evidence | Mail Online
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What the heck is the author of the article implying here?

"Wallis’s parties have so much pep no one ever wants to leave,’ commented one guest. It was Consuelo who introduced Wallis to her sister, Thelma Furness, the much-gossiped-about lover of the Prince of Wales.

Then 37, he was one of the most famous men in the world, adored for his boyish good looks and radiant charm.

But like Wallis, he had dark secrets of his own.

Several of those closest to him had already expressed the opinion that Edward was mentally unbalanced. Not only that, but it was even whispered that the future king was actually insane.

Intriguingly, as we shall find out on Monday, there is indeed evidence to support this."
 
XeniaCasaraghi said:
Adolf Hitler was not born an evil maniac mass murder.
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I couldn't agree more. IMO we come into this world "tabula rasa"-clean slate. To see what happens next we must look at the variables-genetics, social environment, parenting etc so further concurrence with your views has to end here.
There are books available on Hitler's early life, numerous psychologists have sought to "explain" him. You use the word "normal", to describe him-maybe so, but I must question what that word means. From what I know of his background, I would hope it's not "normal." I believe his father was a tyrant who probably subjected him to physical and psychological abuse and his mother overcompensated. I believe he was quite a sickly child and that at least one of his siblings died. At some point he had aspirations as an artist-he even, for a time,attended art college where he was neither good or popular but during this time he developed a fixation on a fellow student and stalked her. It seems that he may have wanted to move into a higher social class, but being a loner, lacked the social skills necessary. Psychologically, he may have been a very angry man when he entered the army and it seems highly likely that b y the time Germany was defeated, having spent time in prison, he was blaming the whole world, and the Jews in particular, for his own failures. He emerged, in part because of the extreme hatred that was eating at him, a socially (and sexually) inadequate man. His relationship with his young niece was a far from healthy one. She committed suicide.
I can't find it in me to feel anything good about a person who so hates- and blames- one race of people, that he seeks to eradicate the from the face of the earth. I would be terrified of experiencing what that depth of hatred feels like. However, as I believe that personalities are multi layered and that nobody is all bad, in his defence, he did love his dog.
 
expat said:
First of all I must express my disgust and abhorrence for anyone saying anything good about Adolf Hitler but as this is a thread about Edward and Wallis here is an article about a new book in DM about Wallis.

Was Wallis Simpson all woman? There's been dark speculation about her sexual make-up. Now in a major reassessment her biographer uncovers new evidence | Mail Online
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If you had read my post you will find that I never condoned his evil actions but simply showed that at one time in his life he actually did some things that are highly regarded even today by most people - showed bravery under fire in the face of the enemy. If his name wasn't Adolf Hitler people would acknowlege this one fact but most people are so blinkered they don't get past the awfulness of the 1930s and 40s to look at the man in the 1914-18 period.

Sorry if the truth upsets you but you can't deny the truth of the man. It actually makes his later actions all the more reprehensible - as someone who had endured the horrors of WWI and had come through with honour to then inflict even more horror on the world is incomprehensible but also begs the question - when did he become so evil - was it in fact as a consequence of what he experienced during WWI? what about his experiences in Germany during the hyperinflation of the early 20s? or the great depression? All of these events and more shaped the man who became the second most evil man in the world (Stalin was way worse).


However to then take this back to Edward - was he also formed by his experiences through these same years - the war, the general strike and other difficulties in Britain in the 1920s, the great depression and, like Hitler, his poor relationship with his father? Did these common, if also different, experiences through the years forge a sort of bond between these two men?

Did Edward admire Hitler for bringing Germany out of Depression faster than any other country in the 1930s? Did Edward agree with some of his policies e.g. anti-communism? Did Edward agree with all of his policies including the destruction of the Jews? These are serious questions but they probably will have to wait a couple of centurise before any historian will be able to truly attempt to answer them.
 
Abhorrence and disgust still apply
 
expat said:
Abhorrence and disgust still apply
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You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. That you find me abhorrent is clear and that I disgust you is also clear - fine I can live with that.

As a teacher and historian I have to have a more open mind and ask questions about the why - why did a brave man turn into a monster? If I don't then I am not doing what I was intellectually trained to do at university - ask questions about everything and always ask 'why' - why did Edward VIII abdicate? why did he meet Hitler? why did he fail to condemn Hitler? was there something in their life experiences that brought about this attitude from Edward?

I ask these questions but accept that to some they aren't worth asking.
 
Iluvbertie said:
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. That you find me abhorrent is clear and that I disgust you is also clear - fine I can live with that.

As a teacher and historian I have to have a more open mind and ask questions about the why - why did a brave man turn into a monster? If I don't then I am not doing what I was intellectually trained to do at university - ask questions about everything and always ask 'why' - why did Edward VIII abdicate? why did he meet Hitler? why did he fail to condemn Hitler? was there something in their life experiences that brought about this attitude from Edward?

I ask these questions but accept that to some they aren't worth asking.
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Asking those questions is not the same thing as praising one of the greatest war criminals in human history.
 
I have the impression that you think you are the only teacher and historian on this forum. As to your assessment, I do abhor and find disgusting anyone who praises this person or, I nearly forgot, called him brave.
 
Iluvbertie, over countless threads I and many others have made attempts to explain Edwards stance-our collective views are many and varied. My own viewpoint is psychological because that is where my understanding comes from, but I'm fully aware that not everybody will agree with my views. I do believe that for every "Why?" there can be numerous answers, one of which is likely to be right, the others, even if they are wrong can give rise to interesting debate.
 
Okay its time to move on from discussing the good and bad characteristics of Adolf Hitler and get back on topic with the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.
 
Iluvbertie, I see where you are coming from and I agree with your stance. Hitler was an evil man, but he wasn't always like there. You just have to accept that there are people who don't want to see the why or what came before the evil. Thankfully there seems to still be a balance between the people who don't want to look deeper, and those who live off of pulling back the layers.
As for Wallis and Edward, this idiocy about her being a man is ridiculous. Why are people so ignorant as to think that a man can only give up his kingdom for a supermodel?History is littered with famous women in history have not been what you would describe as "beautiful" yet they still had the ability to drive a man crazy.
 
XeniaCasaraghi, I would love to know where you see your own position between "the people who don't want to look deeper, and those who live off of pulling back the layers"!!!! and how you believe it possible "to see the why or what came before the evil" without removing layers? Your words suggest little regard for this.

Wallis Simpson's gender!!! A debate which has been running for years. In fact, the author of this latest offering could have used some of my own words from this thread-good to know one person agrees with my theories!!! We can only speculate, but I believe there to be grounds for thinking that she may have been "different"-and may have been a contributary factor in why she "clicked" with David. To label her as "male" is, IMO, sensationalist, nothing more. However, transgender/intersex COULD possibly apply. I've always had difficulty with believing stories of her amazing sexual prowess and how she learned it, to me she has seemed too fastidious to have much interest in such pursuits, that any flirtatiousness was superficial and at heart she was cold and essentially private. If any of what we read of David is true, he would have fitted her physicality and matched her psychology far better than either of her previous husbands. I'm not "one of those ignorant enough to believe a man would only give up a kingdom for a supermodel", but clearly, for David, there must have been something quite extraordinary about her-perhaps, along with many other things, it was her gender.
 
HRHHermione said:
Fascinating article
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I never knew the Duchess continued to write to her ex-husband. This article rings true to me about Edward's state of mind (indeed, most biographers note that he threatened suicide when talking to Wallis during the crisis) and it seems that only someone not in love with the man would humiliate him with petty insults. If it is true, then the woman played the game for too long and it cost her a husband she loved. Pity.
 
Both of the Duchess's previous marriages were of short duration, I believe? She remained married to The Duke I believe for almost 40 years before his death? That speaks volumes to me about whether or not she loved the man. Actions and behaviors ALWAYS speak much louder than words ever could.
 
Bundtrock said:
Both of the Duchess's previous marriages were of short duration, I believe? She remained married to The Duke I believe for almost 40 years before his death? That speaks volumes to me about whether or not she loved the man. Actions and behaviors ALWAYS speak much louder than words ever could.
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My dear Bundtrock,

Not always. From what I've read, Wallis was horrified when Edward first broached marrying her. After everything occurred and after he gave up the throne, she may have felt that she had to get married. She undoubtedly enjoyed the trappings and perks that went with being married to royalty but this marriage alone is not proof positive that she loved Edward.

On the other hand, I also have read that Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother remarked that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor had a good marriage and loved one another. I guess this matter is up for differing viewpoints.
 
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