Double-engagement in the House of Habsburg: Christoph & Adelaide; Imre & Kathleen

[Noble Consort Ming]

I don´t like her, she is smug and I´m sure she can´t wait to be Archduchess.

Before I ask my question (and this questions is directed at anyone and not just the person I quoted) I want to ask you all to please excuse my ignorance of how titles work in this family. Will she really become an Archduchess? I thought she would not because it is not an equal marriage.

 

[Tilia C.]

Before I ask my question (and this questions is directed at anyone and not just the person I quoted) I want to ask you all to please excuse my ignorance of how titles work in this family. Will she really become an Archduchess? I thought she would not because it is not an equal marriage.

IIRC the family no longer sticks to the old rules for equal marriages. So these marriages will be seen as dynastic.

 

[fearghas]

IIRC the family no longer sticks to the old rules for equal marriages. So these marriages will be seen as dynastic.

The rule is that so long as she is a Christian. I don't think that anyone can doubt that she believes ina form of Christianity.

 

[Kit]

The rule is that so long as she is a Christian. I don't think that anyone can doubt that she believes in a form of Christianity.

For as long as AD Karl as Head of the House of Habsburg agrees to this marriage the marriage is considered equal and therefore she will be an AD. For that she doesn't even be a Christian anymore. Karl has himself stated in an interview a few days after his father's death that he can not even imagine a single reason why he should not give his consent to future marriages of the Habsburg members. AD Otto already was very generous considering the family rules and unless a serious problem would arise because of an engagement (especially when technically non-equal) a marriage's consent would never be refused or withdrawn. Serious problem means for example when the person marrying into the family would have commited a serious crime like murder.
What's more Miss Walker and her husband are so far down the theoretical line of succession that it really doesn't matter or only very little if she would become an AD. And don't forget in Austria as the family's "home land" doesn't accept the title anyway. So as long Karl gives his permission to he marriage I wish them both the very best. And I am sure Otto would have done the same as long as Miss Walker makes his grand-nephew happy.

 

[MarleneKoenig]

It is an equal marriage. The only requirement is that the bride be Christian ... but legally, she will not be an archduchess because Austria is not a monarchy. She will have the surname Habsbourg-Lorraine

Before I ask my question (and this questions is directed at anyone and not just the person I quoted) I want to ask you all to please excuse my ignorance of how titles work in this family. Will she really become an Archduchess? I thought she would not because it is not an equal marriage.

 

[Ceallach]

the family has a history of fast engagements, as quick as 2 months, so even though there are no dates yet - I expect summer weddings. They have had 3 weddings in the span of 13 months before so maybe they just need to work out the dates with Guillaume so they do not conflict.

missed not - would not take away

 

[marlene]

Please tell me what you think? I was wondering why the announcement of the engagement was done in a double fashion.Since I don't believe they will marry in the next 3 months I wondered why they didn't leave a few weeks between the announcements of each engagement.Christopher and Imre's mother was married within 6 weeks of her sister Margarethe but the announcements of their engagements were made separately I believe.As a mother, I would want each of my children to have their special moment when they announce such a special thing.I wondered if maybe they felt that any negative attention about Katie might be lost among all the interest in both couples together and might put her and Imre less in the spotlight if the the press had two couples to talk about.Just wondering, but I would be interested to know what all of you think.

 

[Marengo]

This thread has been cleaned up and re-opened. Although we understand that Kathleen Walker is a controversial figure, with very outspoken and vocal points of view, we urge you all to stay away from in-depth religious debates. Of course you can post information about miss Walkers activities as she is certainly not afraid to share them with the world. But this is NOT the right forum to discuss abortion, killing doctors, canonic law and such. vBulletin has the catholic forum for those interested in these kind of debates: Catholic Community Forum

Any further extensive debates on the matter will be deleted without notice. Please remind to stay respectful towards each other and towards the people discussed.

Thank you!

the TRF mod. team.

 

[principessa]

Who of you think that there will be a double wedding?

BTW: Have there already in royal or noble circles been double weddings?

 

[Marengo]

The only ones I can think of:

1793: Duchess Friederike of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Prince Louis of Prussia; Duchess Luise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia.

1818: Edward, Duke of Kent and the dowager Princess of Leiningen ; William, Duke ofClarence and Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen.

1878: Princess Charlotte of Prussia to hereditairy duke Bernhard of Saxe-Meiningen and of Princess Elisabeth-Anna of Prussia to hereditairy Grand DUke Friedrich-August of Oldenburg.

But there should be many, many more.

 

[Tilia C.]

I can't remember any double wedding during the past few decades. It seems to be an outdated concept, and I hope that they each will have their own wedding. Each couple should have their own big day.

 

[Saschana]

Luxarazzi had a blog post a week or so ago which said that Archduke Imre and Kathleen will marry first and that Archduke Christoph and Adelaide will go second. They are usually very well informed, they wrote about Christoph's engagement months before it was officially announced.

 

[lucien]

IIRC the family no longer sticks to the old rules for equal marriages. So these marriages will be seen as dynastic.

True.Well,not that it matters that much,Austria isn't and won't be an Empire again....alas...

 

[Stefan]

The only ones I can think of:

1793: Duchess Friederike of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Prince Louis of Prussia; Duchess Luise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia.

1818: Edward, Duke of Kent and the dowager Princess of Leiningen ; William, Duke ofClarence and Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen.

1878: Princess Charlotte of Prussia to hereditairy duke Bernhard of Saxe-Meiningen and of Princess Elisabeth-Anna of Prussia to hereditairy Grand DUke Friedrich-August of Oldenburg.

But there should be many, many more.

In 1951 there was even a double Wedding among siblings when
Duke Anton Günther of Oldenburg married Princess Ameli zu Löwenstein-Freudenberg
and his brother Duke Peter married Amelis's sister princess Gertrud zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg.

 

[MAfan]

I can also think to the double marriages of:
Queen Isabel II of Spain to her cousin Infante Francisco and of her sister Infante Luisa Fernanda to the Duke of Montpensier, on 10 October 1846;
siblings King Francesco I of the Two Sicilies and Princess Luisa respectively to their double first cousins (and siblings too) Archduchess Clementine of Austria and Grand Duke Ferdinando III of Tuscany, on 19 September 1790;
brothers Alexandre de la Rochefoucauld, Duke of Estissac, and Jean de la Rochefoucauld respectively to twin sisters Antoinette and Marie-Agnes de Moustier, on 12 and 14 October 1943.

 

[Tilia C.]

Luxarazzi had a blog post a week or so ago which said that Archduke Imre and Kathleen will marry first and that Archduke Christoph and Adelaide will go second. They are usually very well informed, they wrote about Christoph's engagement months before it was officially announced.

I'm relieved to hear that. This means two weddings to look forward to. I hope that they will announce the dates an location soon. Do you think they'll get married in Brussels like their sister?

 

[Marengo]

I wonder if members fo the Belgian RF will attend the wedding of AD Imre, considering the comments by Kathleen Walker. Showing up at the wedding of a woman with such opinions may cause some raised eyeborws..... IF the media will pick it up (and they probably won't). I think that for any reigning monarchy this woman could never be allowed to marry & the husband to retain succession rights (save Liechtenstein maybe).... even Sofia Hellqvist seems more suitable by comparison.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Archduke Lorenz will likely bring along his family to this royal wedding.

 

[claypoint2]

Do you think they'll get married in Brussels like their sister?

I believe that their sister was married in Mechelen (Malines), not in Brussels. It will be interesting to see where the weddings will take place; traditionally the location is associated with the bride's family....

 

[Saschana]

You are right, Marie-Christine got married in Mechelen. My guess is that they will get married somewhere in Belgium but I'm not sure if it will get as much press as Marie-Christine's and Rodolphe's wedding as the brides aren't from well known as families as the Limburg-Stirum's.

 

[Lady Faye Aragon]

Hello! I have read this thread and found it very interesting, indeed. Does anyone know the reason of the absence of the Hereditary Grand Duke Henri, his wife the Grand Duchess Maria Teresa and their eldest son the Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume from the engagement??? I saw that Princes Felix, Louis and Sebastien and Princess Alexandra were all present. Do you think that the Grand Ducal couple and HGD Guillaume were not in favor of Kathleen Walker???

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^
I don't know but I suspect if they strongly objected to the engagement their children would not be there.

 

[Saschana]

I don't think so, it was probably about clashing appointments; it wasn't like they were the only family members missing: Princess Margaretha was there with her daughter Marie-Astrid while her husband Nikolaus, their daughter Maria-Anunciata and their son Josef-Emanuel weren't. Two of Prince Jean's sons Prince Constantin and Prince Carl-Johan were there while their father, their sister Marie-Gabrielle and their brother Wenceslas were absent. Neither Imre's uncle Guillaume nor his wife Sibilla or children were there.
Imre has 16 cousins on the maternal side and 14 on his father's; probably hard to bring them all together in one place at the same time. I'm looking forward to see as many as them as possible on the wedding day of Imre and Katie and later on at the wedding of Christoph and his fiancee.

 

[Biri]

I'm looking forward to see as many as them as possible on the wedding day of Imre and Katie and later on at the wedding of Christoph and his fiancee.

We still don't know if Imre and Katie marry first.

 

[Saschana]

We do. Have a look at post #102: A special edition of Point de Vue about marriages a few weeks ago stated that Imre and Katie will marry before Christoph and Adelaide.

 

[Shikha Pal]

this article says Archduke Imre's wedding date has been set!

 

[MAfan]

Yes, the date is 8 September 2012; the wedding will be celebrated in Washington DC, at the Church of St. Mary the Mother of God.

 

[claypoint2]

The Church of St. Mary the Mother of God, where the marriage will take place, has a long association with German and Austrian immigrants to the United States, who founded it and also brought works of art to the parish. They celebrate the feast day of Blessed Karl of Austria, great-grandfather of the groom; I think (but am not sure) that it may be the place where Archduke Imre and Miss Walker first met. Does anyone know or remember? I do believe that they first encountered each other at an activity to honor the memory of Karl I of Austria.

Any bets on whether they will be married in a Tridentine Mass -- that is, the liturgy of Pope Pius V (1504-1572) that prevailed before the Vatican II council and is most often said in Latin? It fell largely into disuse for several decades and is now being revived by very conservative Catholics. If I were a betting person, I would wager a good sum on this.

 

[claypoint2]

Interestingly, the Royalement Blog reports that the wedding will take place in New York, and that the reception will be at the St. Regis Hotel. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.327814293953112.76333.191994364201773&type=1

It is the second time that I see this information published. However, Washington, DC, makes much more sense as a venue, given that the bride and groom met there and have been living there. (He was an intern at Atlas, the right-wing "think tank": Interns – Atlas Network).

As far as I know, they have no particular connection to New York, and many of the old nobility of Belgium -- which is his family's most immediate social circle -- often think of NY as the city of crass, ill-mannered, newly rich people. Can anyone clarify the source of the conflicting reports?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

The Church of St. Mary the Mother of God, where the marriage will take place, has a long association with German and Austrian immigrants to the United States, who founded it and also brought works of art to the parish. They celebrate the feast day of Blessed Karl of Austria, great-grandfather of the groom; I think (but am not sure) that it may be the place where Archduke Imre and Miss Walker first met. Does anyone know or remember? I do believe that they first encountered each other at an activity to honor the memory of Karl I of Austria.

Any bets on whether they will be married in a Tridentine Mass -- that is, the liturgy of Pope Pius V (1504-1572) that prevailed before the Vatican II council and is most often said in Latin? It fell largely into disuse for several decades and is now being revived by very conservative Catholics. If I were a betting person, I would wager a good sum on this.

Not only is this couple marrying on Sept8th- which the Roman Catholic Church celebrates as the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin, they are being married in a church consecrated to her. It's pretty safe to assume the bride and groom are very orthodox Catholics indeed.

I came of age after Vatican II and have no memory of the Tridentine Mass, but I have attended several of them and I must admit there is something very mystical and timeless about the Tridentine Mass that is simply missing in the Novus Ordo.

I would not blame them a bit if they select this or der of the Mass for their wedding!