Crown Princess Mary’s Education and Career

[Polly]

The information regarding mixed vs straight law degrees came from an attorney who is educated both in Australia and the US and also a lawyer.

Then whoever he or she was, they're wrong! Further, I don't believe that anyone educated in Law in Australia, which closely follows the UK model, would make such an egregious faux pas. CP Mary is an authentic Law Graduate. I am myself.

This is not a 'Mary zone', per se. However, it's commond decency to give credit where it's due, and CP Mary's credit is higher than many others, in my opinion.

My apologies for taking so long to respond.

Polly

 

[Little_star]

Then whoever he or she was, they're wrong! Further, I don't believe that anyone educated in Law in Australia, which closely follows the UK model, would make such an egregious faux pas. CP Mary is an authentic Law Graduate. I am myself.

This is not a 'Mary zone', per se. However, it's commond decency to give credit where it's due, and CP Mary's credit is higher than many others, in my opinion.

My apologies for taking so long to respond.

Polly

I cannot comment on Australia, but here in the UK joint honours degrees like Mary's can pose a problem for law students.

It's important to check whether the degree itself contains enough "law" to constitute a qualifying law degree. Its only if you posess a qualifying law degree that you can then go on to undertake the LPC/BVC. If it does not contain the core legal elements then you must do a conversion course before you continue with your degree.

I'm not sure if the Aussie system is identical but there's a strong chance that here in the UK a joint honours degree, like Mary's, would not be enough to continue with a legal career.

 

[Lozza]

Not from what I know. The combined courses are actully two seperate degrees that you complete at the same time. I didn't do law myself but a number of people I went to school with (in 2000) are all now practising law. If you go to uni and do a combined degree you HAVE a law degree and that's that.

Anyone who told you that an Australian who does a Commerce/Law degree cannot become a lawyer is a flat out liar. They have to do their articles (or Bar) Until they do that, they are considered a law graduate, which is what Mary is.

 

[BurberryBrit]

It's important to check whether the degree itself contains enough "law" to constitute a qualifying law degree. Its only if you posess a qualifying law degree that you can then go on to undertake the LPC/BVC. If it does not contain the core legal elements then you must do a conversion course before you continue with your degree.

That doesn't make any sense. To obtain a degree, you have to complete a certain amount of courses and do a certain number of credits (or whatever the equivalent is in Australia). Your quote is implying that taking a few law classes is sufficient enought to give one a law degree. That is obviously not the case. I'm assuming that any law degree program is structured in such a way that the core classes are included. So if Mary was granted a law degree then she took the full course load.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I might be wrong, but you can only get a JD (juris doctor, or law degree) in Law School. I went to Georgia State and they have an excellent law school and if you want to be a lawyer, that's where you go to get your degree.

Unless Mary went to law school, she didn't get a law degree.

 

[BurberryBrit]

I might be wrong, but you can only get a JD (juris doctor, or law degree) in Law School. I went to Georgia State and they have an excellent law school and if you want to be a lawyer, that's where you go to get your degree.

Unless Mary went to law school, she didn't get a law degree.

From wikipedia:

"While universities in nations with legal systems based on the common law generally still award the LL.B. degree as the first professional law degree, some law schools in Canada, Hong Kong, and Australia have renamed or changed LL.B. to J.D., or simply offer both J.D. and LL.B.

A number of universities such as Australia's University of Melbourne, Hong Kong's Chinese University of Hong Kong offer both first-entry and second-entry first professional degrees in law: the LL.B. is offered as a four year program for secondary school graduates, while the Juris Doctor is offered as a two to three year (6-trimester) program for "mature graduates with a good degree in a discipline other than law and significant employment experience, and for lawyers who have a civil law degree"

I think it's safe to say Mary received a law degree (wiki says the LLB is regarded as a professional law degree) but didn't practice law. Even with the change from LLB to JD, the JD would be for those who already have the LLB degree or are already professionals in another field.

 

[Little_star]

Not from what I know. The combined courses are actully two seperate degrees that you complete at the same time. I didn't do law myself but a number of people I went to school with (in 2000) are all now practising law. If you go to uni and do a combined degree you HAVE a law degree and that's that.

Anyone who told you that an Australian who does a Commerce/Law degree cannot become a lawyer is a flat out liar. They have to do their articles (or Bar) Until they do that, they are considered a law graduate, which is what Mary is.

I was referring to the UK when I made my comment, I said that in the first sentence of my post, if you re-read it.. UK law degrees have to have 7 core topics studied and often combined degrees don't fulfil that requirement.

That's why Mary's degree has surprised me because I didn't think you could do a combined law degree without doing a conversion afterwards.

 

[Lizy]

Excuse me if I'm being ignorant but has Mary every actually said or referred to herself as a lawyer? I don't understand all the debate re whether Mary could have become a lawyer if she wanted as it seems from her career path that she had no intention of ever becoming a practicing lawyer. It seems to me that magazines etc have seen that she did a degree which included law in the title and have jumped on it.

 

[Lozza]

No, but people are claiming that she dosen't have a law degree, when its just flat out wrong.

I might be wrong, but you can only get a JD (juris doctor, or law degree) in Law School. I went to Georgia State and they have an excellent law school and if you want to be a lawyer, that's where you go to get your degree.

Unless Mary went to law school, she didn't get a law degree.

In America you would be right. Last time I checked though, Tasmania is part of Australia. In AUSTRALIA you don't do a degree afterwords. Your law degree (the law schools are all part of the university itself, not seperate) is awarded after five years.

I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated by the Australians. Mary has a law degree. Since she choose to use a different part of her degree, she never became a lawyer, but that does not negate the fact that she has that law degree. Using examples from America or England are irrelevant, as we have very different education systems.

 

[KikkiB]

No, but people are claiming that she dosen't have a law degree, when its just flat out wrong.



In America you would be right. Last time I checked though, Tasmania is part of Australia. In AUSTRALIA you don't do a degree afterwords. Your law degree (the law schools are all part of the university itself, not seperate) is awarded after five years.

I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated by the Australians. Mary has a law degree. Since she choose to use a different part of her degree, she never became a lawyer, but that does not negate the fact that she has that law degree. Using examples from America or England are irrelevant, as we have very different education systems.

I guess it all boils down to how you choose to use that law degree.

 

[Lozza]

Of course it does. I'm not arguing that she is a lawyer, because she most definitely is not.

But she was clearly smart enough to not only be accepted into a law degree (no mean feat in Australia) but she completed it. Just because she choose to follow a career path that had more to do with her commerce degree, does not negate her law degree.

Hypothetically, if Mary had become a lawyer would she have 'wasted' her commerce degree?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Back to that old topic again, are we? Bashing Mary for something she did not do?

 

[clonfin]

About the Course
This honours degree combines the disciplines of Business and Law. The many inter-relationships that exist between the two disciplines are explored and discussed to highlight the importance that each has on the other. By so doing, students will be well equipped to make informed choices relating to their subsequent careers.

This course prepares you for a legal position within a business, liaising with other departments that will be seeking legal advice on any number of issues. You can also pursue a role in a legal practice. Alternatively, if you choose to focus exclusively on a legal career you will continue in education to prepare for the traditional legal professions as a solicitor or barrister.

 

[politikgirl]

I don't understand what the debate is about. Mary has a law degree, period. She also has a commerce degree, and she completed the two degrees concurrently. Instead of taking the route to a legal career, Mary chose to go into business. I don't understand why anyone is putting her down for this; it's a bit ridiculous.

 

[ZzOz]

CPM studied a double degree, one of which was Law. She is therefore considered a trained lawyer but not accredited to practise. That requires further training.

People who have studied Law are still considered to be knowledgeable in their field. They often sit on boards or act as consultants, without the rigour of constant professional development required of Practising lawyers.

It's a difficult course and an achievement regardless of how one uses it.

Also, as some posters have said, some of the B.Commerce subjects / courses would have applied to the LLB. That makes for shorter study. It is still a full degree - eleven Priestly (compulsory legal) subjects and up to 12 or so electives.

If a someone who is not a lawyer asks me "Where did you study Law", I deflect the question as it's quite rude. Most people would not know a good course from poor and most schools teach the same course. It's never asked by the many lawyers I know and work with. It's generally considered an irrelevant question.

 

[MARG]

I don't understand what the debate is about. Mary has a law degree, period. She also has a commerce degree, and she completed the two degrees concurrently. Instead of taking the route to a legal career, Mary chose to go into business. I don't understand why anyone is putting her down for this; it's a bit ridiculous.

Unfortunately this is not a "debate" but merely those who cannot understand how a ordinary, middle class, Aussie girl could possibly be a Law Graduate and a Commerce Graduate and, if she has, her degree must be a bit dodgy!

From the official website it merely says, in plain English, "Her Royal Highness enrolled at the University of Tasmania in 1989 and graduated in 1994 with a Bachelor's degree in Commerce and Law (B Com. LLB). 1+1+2!

I am sure that this post, as with so many others, will be soundly trashed by those who categorically refuse to entertain the notion that Mary is both intelligent and educated.

 

[Nordic]

I am sure that this post, as with so many others, will be soundly trashed by those who categorically refuse to entertain the notion that Mary is both intelligent and educated.

Years ago, I read a few posts discussing the education of the then "new" crown princesses in Europe. That was my first and last time at that particular forum, which later closed.

The discussion went something like: "CP Maxima has a university education= She is obviously sooo intelligent and well educated", "CP Letizia has a university education = She is obviously sooo intelligent and well educated"

"Mary Donaldson has a university education = No, but having a university education does not mean she is intelligent. No, no, she's not. She just xxxx"

Not exact quotes but that was the general idea. And it went on for pages.

 

[ZzOz]

I concur with the last two recent Replies. I didn't mean to dredge up a silly old debate. I was searching for information about Mary's law degree, as the media rarely mention it. Easy to presume why!

Much earlier in the thread there were a great many people claiming to be knowledgeable on the matter, or knew an expert. Unless one has actually studied Law in Australia, it would be difficult to assert a valid opinion on Mary's senior education. Every jurisdiction is very different.

Have a great day. ZZ in Oz

 

[MARG]

Years ago, I read a few posts discussing the education of the then "new" crown princesses in Europe. That was my first and last time at that particular forum, which later closed.

The discussion went something like: "CP Maxima has a university education= She is obviously sooo intelligent and well educated", "CP Letizia has a university education = She is obviously sooo intelligent and well educated"

"Mary Donaldson has a university education = No, but having a university education does not mean she is intelligent. No, no, she's not. She just xxxx"

Not exact quotes but that was the general idea. And it went on for pages.

Maxima came from a prominent and wealthy family that gave her access to the great and the good and garnered her a high profile career. She dressed like the wealthy woman she was and was socially "acceptable'. Of course she was intelligent.

Letizia was a high profile television presenter and was immaculately turned out on screen. She was the perfect egalitarian antidote to a newly reinstated monacrchy whose reputation the first King had managed to sully somewhat. Of course she is intelligent.

Mary was a nobody from Tasmania, last stop before the Antarctic. It's an old British penal colony so I can't see their education system being anything like we have here in Europe. What, she has a double degree? Law and Commerce? I don't think so, I mean, did you see those cheap clothes? And her hair? The woman doesn't even know how to dress herself properly, drinks beer and you expect me to believe she's a university graduate . . . Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!!!

 

[Jacknch]

The greatest piece of educational advice I got was, years ago, when our headmaster suggested the most important things for us to learn are Common Sense and Self Control (CS and SC), once we have mastered these too things, all else will fall into place. I think Mary has both these qualities.

 

[ZzOz]

So very true! What a great quote, I think I'll borrow that. Thank you

Practicality and common sense are very Scandinavian qualities as well. I visited CPH And Oslo in 2008, and was very impressed with the fundamental down to earth attitude that is imbued in everything in the region. So much so, I joined my local Scandinavian club. I believe CP Mary displays the correct reserve and dignity for her role. Australians are very direct and forthright when speaking to people; they could learn a lot from Nordic reserve, which is really just common sense and self control

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

So very true! What a great quote, I think I'll borrow that. Thank you

Practicality and common sense are very Scandinavian qualities as well. I visited CPH And Oslo in 2008, and was very impressed with the fundamental down to earth attitude that is imbued in everything in the region. So much so, I joined my local Scandinavian club. I believe CP Mary displays the correct reserve and dignity for her role. Australians are very direct and forthright when speaking to people; they could learn a lot from Nordic reserve, which is really just common sense and self control

I agree. Her down-to-Earth demeanor and her reserve is why she is such a popular person.

Anyone disputing her tertiary education are fools. Firstly, the American and Australian law degrees are different. Secondly, double degrees are common in Australia - I have one in Engineering and Commerce. Thirdly, if she had lied about being graduated in Law, the University of Tasmania would have said so.

In Australia, practising lawyers must graduate from a Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice before they can truly work as a lawyer. From her biography, she hasn't completed one. Also, Mary has never stated she worked as a lawyer.

As one has stated, to actually get into a double degree in law and commerce requires a very high Tertiary Entry Rank. To graduate requires hard work, intelligence and stamina. Those two degrees, on their own, are tough!

 

[Roslyn]

CPM studied a double degree, one of which was Law. She is therefore considered a trained lawyer but not accredited to practise. That requires further training.

People who have studied Law are still considered to be knowledgeable in their field. They often sit on boards or act as consultants, without the rigour of constant professional development required of Practising lawyers.

It's a difficult course and an achievement regardless of how one uses it.

Also, as some posters have said, some of the B.Commerce subjects / courses would have applied to the LLB. That makes for shorter study. It is still a full degree - eleven Priestly (compulsory legal) subjects and up to 12 or so electives.

If a someone who is not a lawyer asks me "Where did you study Law", I deflect the question as it's quite rude. Most people would not know a good course from poor and most schools teach the same course. It's never asked by the many lawyers I know and work with. It's generally considered an irrelevant question.

Well said! In the 30+ years since I was admitted, I don't think I've ever been asked where I studied. ETA, on reflection, that's not true. In the early years I was asked, but in the context of a friendly "getting to know you" conversation as an ice-breaker subject where each person seeks to dentify common friends/acquaintances, not as a way of ascertaining anything about the other person's skill level. The important piece of paper is your practising certificate. Once you've got that, it doesn't matter where you studied. No law course is easy and they all teach the same basic subjects and skills.

Mary has a Commerce/Law degree. That, of itself, is an achievement and tells me she is intelligent and hard-working and willing and able to apply herself to tasks she wishes to accomplish. Without those qualities she could not have passed her exams.

She chose to go into business rather than practise law. That's not unusual for someone with that combined degree here, and no adverse inferences should be drawn from the fact she has never practised law.

 

[Sun Lion]

Mary in the ad she made before she met Prince Frederik -

https://vimeo.com/107542410

 

[Sun Lion]

Mary in the Australian ABC documentary "Going Public" - (before meeting Frederik).

http://www.smh.com.au/business/buzz...-57-million-slice-of-apple-20090506-avd5.html

 

[Muhler]

Thanks, Sun Lion.
Before watching the whole documentary, what is this really all about? And what significance does this have in Australia?

And where (and when in the docu) does Mary come in? Especially if she was only involved in coming up with the name of the company. That is, creating a public profile.

 

[Sun Lion]

Thanks, Sun Lion.
Before watching the whole documentary, what is this really all about? And what significance does this have in Australia?

And where (and when in the docu) does Mary come in? Especially if she was only involved in coming up with the name of the company. That is, creating a public profile.

Hi Muhler.

The documentary is about the experiences of some Australian "Apple" store owners banding together into one company in order to list on the stock exchange.

Mary was one of the employees of the advertising agency, "Love Communications", which was engaged for the launch.

Because this process - the launch - was filmed for the documentary, Mary was caught in her career days before meeting Prince Frederik.

This was screened on TV but does not have any significance in Australia except for Mary fans perhaps, and as a record of how things can go in business.

I think Mary is in the first three episodes.

Try from about the middle of episode three where she is seen next to her boss as they display their work to the executives.

There is a little bit of footage from this documentary that was used by "60 Minutes" showing Mary actually speaking - I'll post that youtube below. (It's towards the end I think.)

This documentary, "Going Public", was archived away for a long time - even after it was known Mary was in it from her pre-fame and pre-royal days.

I was suprised to find it had been put on the internet.

(And not because of Mary being in it, though that is my interest in it.)

Part of the footage - episode two, or early episode three - has Mary and her boss being told their company's work isn't what was expected.

Certainly takes the gloss of any notions of Mary having a glamorous, high-flying career that she should have been envied for.

Jumping up and down, throwing paper-planes. (Was the university degree needed for this job?)

I enjoyed watching it as I thought I would never get to see it.

Can't blame Mary for moving on to more interesting things when Frederik showed up and other doors opened.



At about the 5.00 mark a small segment not in the above documentary, but from that filming, used by "60 Minutes".

 

[Hannelore]

I agree Sun Lion! It was embarrasing watching these men trying to sell themselves, saying things like they're big winners bla bla bla... Having to work on selling this can't always be interesting.

By marrying Fred, Mary's been handed a much better job, maybe even achieving real things, making a difference. AND she's surrounded by people who guide her and who are the best in their fields. A dream job for anyone with ambition I think.

 

[Muhler]

Thanks for the additional info, Sun Lion.

Yes, I think Mary is using her potential in orders of magnitude more today, than she would have had she remained in the business of advertising. She has also recently said that she considered going back to legal profession and use her law-degree as a platform for that.
However, her experience in marketing and advertising has obviously benefited her in her current role. She has clearly made her mark in that respect and it is also clear, albeit sometimes pretty subtle, that she is using her marketing experience when supporting a cause. Like repeating the name of whatever it is in the statements she is giving or during interviews.
Mary clearly has a subordinate role here, which is only what can be expected. At the time she must have been in her late 20's with less than ten years work-experience under her belt. Unless you are very brilliant you don't get a leading role that young. - And to be fair Mary's boss at the time would have had problems convincing me as well at the presentation of the business cards and logos we saw. He simply didn't seem convinced himself that his product was good enough IMO.

As for doing silly things. Team-building classes tends to be a waste of time. At best it makes you laugh and forget for a moment the growing pile on your desk that you have to deal with afterwards.
And don't know about you (plural you. You English speakers really need more words for you ), but sometimes you have to put your down and simply say that it's too idiotic.

 

[T4phage]

She has also recently said that she considered going back to legal profession and use her law-degree as a platform for that.

I was not aware of that, Muhler, thanks! What a wonderful idea, do you have any more details? I wonder how that could work though. Juggling the CP role in addition to the legal profession.