Criticism on Máxima's Remarks about the Dutch Identity: September 2007

[lucien]

HRH at the presentation of the WRR report,The Hague this afternoon.

PPE Agency

Courtesy PPE/Nieboer.

Speech by Princess Máxima,(in dutch,english version will follow soon.):
Het Koninklijk Huis

 

[Tan]

HRH at the presentation of the WRR report,The Hague this afternoon.

PPE Agency

Courtesy PPE/Nieboer.

Speech by Princess Máxima,(in dutch,english version will follow soon.):
Het Koninklijk Huis

She is always so happy, i love that.

I hope i am wrong, but is she get a little bit chubby?

 

[Marengo]

Well, i think Maxima quickly looks chubby in the face, and she has given birth to three children of course, so... Still I don´t think there is much difference from before the summer holidays.

--

About the speech, it focussed on ´what is a Dutchman´, can we discribe that at all? The conclusion was of course that there were all different kinds of Dutchmen and not one discription could be given. Considering the recent succes of Geert Wilders (right wing politician) it seems she is speaking out, supported by her mother-in-law no doubt. She made the remark that she doesn´t approve of the view that the country is some sort if zoo, every group in its own space.

 

[Maxie]

Yes, it was a wonderful speech, I totally agree with her on that point! All this silly talk that is going on over here at the moment, it's getting tiresome.

 

[Vanesa]

She did her job wonderfully. Nothing to criticize over there...

Chubby? I don't think so. She was never thin. I see her as normal as ever.

Vanesa.

 

[Kelly]

About the speech, it focussed on ´what is a Dutchman´, can we discribe that at all? The conclusion was of course that there were all different kinds of Dutchmen and not one discription could be given. Considering the recent succes of Geert Wilders (right wing politician) it seems she is speaking out, supported by her mother-in-law no doubt. She made the remark that she doesn´t approve of the view that the country is some sort if zoo, every group in its own space.

That is funny but true and I think every nation is that way in some sort. She does look less thin than before but maybe it is taking her more time to lose the weight this time.

 

[princess olga]

HRH at the presentation of the WRR report,The Hague this afternoon.

PPE Agency

Courtesy PPE/Nieboer.

Speech by Princess Máxima,(in dutch,english version will follow soon.):
Het Koninklijk Huis

Wonderful, spot-on, personal speech. you can tell these are <her> thoughts. Every time now that I read one of her speeches I think: this girl has THE most depth of all the current crown princesses (bar perhaps Letizia, but who seems more confined somehow than her Dutch counterpart).

 

[Pooky]

I've just read her speech, and I agree that it's a very good one, what else could she say being yet another "ingeburgerd" Dutch citizen.
I didn't kwow that they had that mushroom in front of their house indicating the coordinates, distances, direction of the places where she's lived? That's nice! Anyone seen a picture or the real thing?

 

[Tan]

Here you can read something about her speech. It´s german

All About Royals - Target page

best sentence : Don´t think just black or white!

 

[Regina]

Can someone translate her speech to English, please? I would be so thankful.

 

[Tan]

Can someone translate her speech to English, please? I would be so thankful.

boah thats difficult

 

[Myriam]

About the speech, it focussed on ´what is a Dutchman´, can we discribe that at all? The conclusion was of course that there were all different kinds of Dutchmen and not one discription could be given. Considering the recent succes of Geert Wilders (right wing politician) it seems she is speaking out, supported by her mother-in-law no doubt. She made the remark that she doesn´t approve of the view that the country is some sort if zoo, every group in its own space.

oh boy... is she a liberal? i thought she was a conservative in argentina

immigration is not an easy issue. immigration have bad and good sides. but yeah maxima allows and supports immigration cause she won't suffer from its bad effects. i have friends in europe who complain a LOT about immigrants specially from the ones who came from other continents. i guess maxima said what others told her to say i cant believe she wrote a speech like that one.

 

[Myriam]

im not a dutch but ill try to translate the words i know

maxima said the topic "identity" interests a lot of people in the Netherlands. This topic touches them all. About seven years suffered started my search for the Dutch identity. I was helped by numerous kind and wise experts. They tought her to see, to hear and taste the Netherlands. It was a splendid and rich experience for which I am enormously grateful.
But is there a Dutch identity? Not that I have found. The Netherlands is: be attached to privacy, one biscuit at the tea. But also: enormous hospitality and warmth. The Netherlands is: common sense and control. Pragmatism. But also: together intense emotions alive. The Dutchman does not exist. As a consolation I can say you that the Argentinian does not exist also.
Identification with the Netherlands. That leaves space for development. And for diversity. Learn to understand each other because you share together an importance. Think of a sport club. Or a company. Or a school.

Good of it the emphasis does not lie on the visible differs between people. But on the common aim. And on everybody's personal qualities. Thus preconceptions can melt away. Together play. Together study. Together work. That gives a common perspective to young people with several contexts. That is enormously important in a world of open borders. We think still in dividing lines. Also newcomers do that.
Diversity rewards. Ladies and Gentlemen, according to figures of the United Nations there are 175 millions of people living in a country where they are not born. I am of those 175 millions. In our house stands a mushroom That mushroom gives the coordinates of my life. Buenos Aires. New York. Brussels. The Hague. Wassenaar. With the correct direction and the distance in kilometres. Each time if I go or come home, I see all those places that are part of my life. They belong to my identity such as Dutch. They are me.
Dont think black or white. People have always more dimensions. People also change. That is makes people particular: the capacity to develop. It is not "or, or" but "and, and". That does not make the discussion concerning identity easier. But it makes it much more interesting.

 

[Marengo]

IMO she wasn´t speaking in favour of immigration. The report of the WRR did research about the Dutch identity. She supported their conclusion in her speech.

Thanks for translating the text Myriam! I will edit your post as it is now in bold letters, and that is usually used to post moderator warnings .

I think the RF is aware of what you said (Maxima not seeing any direct negative effets of immigration in her own circle). In an interview in the 80-ties the topic was discussed and the Queen aid ´well it is easy for me of course, because I don´t have them as neighbours´. When the interview was edited the RVD deleted the comment though.

 

[gardenia8]

oh boy... is she a liberal? i thought she was a conservative in argentina

immigration is not an easy issue. immigration have bad and good sides. but yeah maxima allows and supports immigration cause she won't suffer from its bad effects. i have friends in europe who complain a LOT about immigrants specially from the ones who came from other continents. i guess maxima said what others told her to say i cant believe she wrote a speech like that one.

Wouldn't she have to be in support of immigration since she herself is an immigrant? It would be very hypocritical of her to say it is okay for me to be here but not others. CP Mary is an immigrant in Denmark as well. As is Princess Angela of Liechtenstein and many other royals and good people.

 

[Maxie]

oh boy... is she a liberal? i thought she was a conservative in argentina

immigration is not an easy issue. immigration have bad and good sides. but yeah maxima allows and supports immigration cause she won't suffer from its bad effects. i have friends in europe who complain a LOT about immigrants specially from the ones who came from other continents. i guess maxima said what others told her to say i cant believe she wrote a speech like that one.

Well, I actually think she did. What else was she to do? I think with all the work she has done on immigrant issues the last couple of years she has a rather complete view of the problems that are going on over here. I'm even inclined to say that she probably knows more about the subject than the avarage Dutchman.

What's so totally weird about what's going on over here in the Netherlands is the thing that the cities where most people voted for the the Geert Wilders chap are actually cities (or even villages) where you won't find many immigrants. People who actually never have met or talked to an immigrant have obviously the strongest opinions. I think it's a nice gesture from the princess to take at least the trouble to point out that all people are the same and noone is to be labeled by anyone else.

 

[Regina]

Thanks a lot, Myriam!!!! It was very kind of you!

My opinion is that she seems very interested for the topic as always, and I found her last words about the mushroom quite impressive.

I agree immigration is a hard topic especially to Europeans but I don't think she was defending immigration at all costs. I guess what she wanted to say was that people's experiences from the past can and should help to create and developpe a better society. I understood from her words that she wanted to stress that different backgrounds are a plus for any country.

 

[Marengo]

Well, I don´t know if everybody is familiar with the ANWB mushroom. It is something in the shape of a mushroom which gives directions for cyclists in natural areas. This way they don´t have to put up ugly big signs. Apparenlty somebody had one made for Princess Maxima, a nice idea!

--

I think the PoO made some subtle comments about Geert Wilders/ the debate about Islam in The Netherlands during the interview for his 40th birthday. I thought that was quite remarkable as they usually stay away from political remarks. Anyway, the Prince basically said that he didn´t think more polarisation was gppd fpr the country/ society.

 

[Regina]

I have seen posts with distances in several countries as touristic symbols.
I found that mushroom a very lovely personal detail from Máxima. She could add Seville, the city where she met Prince Williem

 

[Myriam]

Wouldn't she have to be in support of immigration since she herself is an immigrant? It would be very hypocritical of her to say it is okay for me to be here but not others. CP Mary is an immigrant in Denmark as well. As is Princess Angela of Liechtenstein and many other royals and good people.

but maxima is the perfect example of Integration. this royal woman should be a case study. she hasnt lost her ties with argentina, she hasnt lost her latino personality but shes a dutch now, she speaks the dutch, she participate in dutch people paries and she works for the netherlands! when i said immigration is a non-easy issue is because many immigrants insist in living by their own behaviour standards in their new country and they refuse to learn the new language. maxima stressed she is not an argentinian but a dutch princess who born in argentina.
thanks marengo for your reply it enlighted me a lot.

 

[Marengo]

An article from expatica about Maxima/ WRR report:

WRR puts integration debate on edge

25 September 2007
THE HAGUE – The Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR) has put the discussion on the topic of integration and the council's own position on edge with its report Identification with the Netherlands, the Volkskrant reports.
That can be gathered from the range of reactions to the report; Integration Minister Ella Vogelaar and Democrats D66 leader Alexander Pechtold are enthusiastic about the council's findings for instance. Freedom Party PVV leader Geert Wilders and the Liberal VVD haven't a good word for it. Princess Máxima expressed her support for the WRR in her speech at the presentation of the report.

Read the entire article here.

 

[Marengo]

As was to be expected the report didn´t fall well with the conservative liberals and the party of Geert Wilders. The VVD said that the Prime Minister should never have given Maxima permission to hold this speech while Wilders (PVV) said that it was well-meant politically correct bullocks.

Article in Dutch here.

 

[Mandrake]

It is a good thing that the Dutch Royals can speak out on certain themes.
The integration debate is a much discussed theme, with many véry different opinions. Therefore it is not very wise that Princess Maxima made a speach on this. She positions herself in the midst of a heated debate.

I myself found the rapport 'interesting' and useless at the same time. It's a typical academical study with good intentions that is not going to influence normal day behaviour in any way. In the WRR rapport it is like they say 'people are different, will be different, have own opinions and traditions and don't change that and that is okay. I think there are also other thing that could be said, like we have some rules you have to accept, some habits are not custom in this country etc. etc. And to be frank the discussion 'on the streets' is mainly about people from middle-eastern and african -non-western countries-, who have different problems with immigration than people from western countries. And to my knowledge there are no problems with people from Argentina! So why is Maxima the role-model?
That a latina princess speaks about her personal experiences, uses a quote from almost 'saint' prins claus etc.... it will make that people who dislike the original raport are going to dislike Maxima because she gives the rapport a stature it doesn't deserve! And that is happening already.
This simply is to political and controversial

 

[susan alicia]

the subject might be political and controversial but she did not say anything shocking in itself, it was all non offensive.

It is a good thing that the Dutch Royals can speak out on certain themes.
The integration debate is a much discussed theme, with many véry different opinions. Therefore it is not very wise that Princess Maxima made a speach on this. She positions herself in the midst of a heated debate.

I myself found the rapport 'interesting' and useless at the same time. It's a typical academical study with good intentions that is not going to influence normal day behaviour in any way. In the WRR rapport it is like they say 'people are different, will be different, have own opinions and traditions and don't change that and that is okay. I think there are also other thing that could be said, like we have some rules you have to accept, some habits are not custom in this country etc. etc. And to be frank the discussion 'on the streets' is mainly about people from middle-eastern and african -non-western countries-, who have different problems with immigration than people from western countries. And to my knowledge there are no problems with people from Argentina! So why is Maxima the role-model?
That a latina princess speaks about her personal experiences, uses a quote from almost 'saint' prins claus etc.... it will make that people who dislike the original raport are going to dislike Maxima because she gives the rapport a stature it doesn't deserve! And that is happening already.
This simply is to political and controversial

 

[Marengo]

Now about Maxima's speech. I think in the pre-Fortuyn/van Gogh period nobody would have raised even an eyebrow about this speech, but now... I wonder if this was actually the whole came from the goverment (to have Maxima promote piece, quiet, unity etc) or that the court took the initiative. Anyway, she obviously couldn't make a speech and disagree with the WRR conclusion but the other alternative was to stay away completely. Personally I am glad that she spoke out, but I agree with Mandrake that it can be risky.

--
From Dutchnews.nl, read the entire article here.

Máxima is talking rubbish, says Wilders

Tuesday 25 September 2007
Princess Máxima was talking 'well-meant, politically-correct rubbish' when she gave a speech welcoming the publication of a report on Dutch nationality, said Geert Wilders leader of the anti-Islam party PVV on RTL news.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

She could add Seville, the city where she met Prince Williem

I thought just the same, Regina, as I was reading the speech!

Regarding the role of Máxima as a 'model' of integration, I wouldn't like to get into a political discussie here...though I am tempted to say that a) her speech was meaningful in the sense that she says 'hey, don't think this subject doesn't touch me just because I am a princess', but b)I don't think it's easy for just any expat or inmigrant to relate to her, since the conditions she was given to adapt were absolutely different to the ones someone like any of us could get. She got her passport extra-fast, she didn't have to search for a job or a house, she got an intensive and paid training to learn Dutch... of course, she was going to be a Princess! But I feel this gap is not easy to fill.

 

[Tan]

puhhhh...

Maxima get a lot of critic for her speech:

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23308#anchor_4427

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23344#anchor_4427

Sorry no time to translate it.........

 

[Myriam]

puhhhh...

Maxima get a lot of critic for her speech:

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23308#anchor_4427

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23344#anchor_4427

Sorry no time to translate it.........

i am not surprised with the reaction i was atonished too!
she may knows a lots of theory but real life is another thing. living in a palace is a thing living in a normal neighbhood is another thing especially in europe

 

[prinsesbeagle]

Who cares anymore what Geert Wilders has to say. He will respond to EVERYTHING. Latest polls about him are not too favorable. A lot of people feel he goes way too far these days. The VVD party is now an opposition party and not taking part in the government, so of course it is sort of predictable they would seize this opportunity too. Not because of the princess or IMHO even what she said, but because it provides them with sometrhing to bother the PM with.
Other than the predictable Geert 'onruststoker' Wilders and conservatives for the opposition party VVD, I have not really heard much criticism on her speech?

Loved her outfit from today.

 

[Marengo]

Prof. Herman Pleij commented about Maxima´s speech in a talkshow. He said that Maxima said things in such a charming way that he would almost be inclined to say she is right, but she is not. Among other things he added that it is VERY Dutch to say that one is not very Dutch, as the Dutch like to stress their individuality. Secratairy of State, Achmed Aboutaleb (Labour) agreed wholehartedly with the Princess though, and he praised the princess for the genuine interest she took in the subject.