Charles and Diana

[HistoryGirl]

I certainly understand that argument and personally I would hope someone would advise me in that situation. However, it's also a very awkward situation for the Queen and others. I mean telling someone they shouldn't marry is a HUGE intrusion into their personal life which many people aren't comfortable with for very good reasons. If they don't marry and they're sad, the friends and family look like the bad guy for standing in their way and if they wind up marrying anyway then the friends and family look like haters who I imagine would not be looked at in the same manner as before.

I understand that friends and family exist to support, but these were adults not ten year olds. At a certain point, they have to be held responsible for marrying when each had their doubts. I understand it was hard and I see the reasons why the mistake was made, but the responsibility lies with the two people who made the choice to begin with.

 

[Dman]

I certainly understand that argument and personally I would hope someone would advise me in that situation. However, it's also a very awkward situation for the Queen and others. I mean telling someone they shouldn't marry is a HUGE intrusion into their personal life which many people aren't comfortable with for very good reasons. If they don't marry and they're sad, the friends and family look like the bad guy for standing in their way and if they wind up marrying anyway then the friends and family look like haters who I imagine would not be looked at in the same manner as before.

I understand that friends and family exist to support, but these were adults not ten year olds. At a certain point, they have to be held responsible for marrying when each had their doubts. I understand it was hard and I see the reasons why the mistake was made, but the responsibility lies with the two people who made the choice to begin with.

The couple were pushed together by the same people who failed to support them. Of course some responsibility landed on the couple footsteps, but they had a lot of pressure on them at the sametime.

 

[HistoryGirl]

Maybe this is just a difference in principle. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility in general so I think that's why I'm not really with the idea that the blame lay on anyone other than Charles and Diana for making a dumb choice. To me it's not the worst thing and we've all been there, but I don't tend to blame others when I make a stupid
decision so that's the perspective I take with others. Context matters, as it always does, but I'm not sure that they can be blamed for two grown ups making a dumb decision.

 

[Dman]

Maybe this is just a difference in principle. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility in general so I think that's why I'm not really with the idea that the blame lay on anyone other than Charles and Diana for making a dumb choice. To me it's not the worst thing and we've all been there, but I don't tend to blame others when I make a stupid
decision so that's the perspective I take with others. Context matters, as it always does, but I'm not sure that they can be blamed for two grown ups making a dumb decision.

No one is placing all the blame on others. What I'm saying is that there was a lot of blame to go around. It wasn't just Charles and Diana doing stupid stuff, but there were others who had their hand in the royal pot too.

Charles and Diana needed some serious help and guidance in their private life, but they were treated like two characters from episode of Game of Thrones, instead of like two real people who were in serious trouble.

No matter who you are, you can't build a successful family life on shaky and cracked grounds. Marriage and family life must be the first priority, and When it came to Charles and Diana's marriage and relationship, none of it was the first priority. Royal duties and image came first, that was a recipe for disaster right there.

 

[HistoryGirl]

I understand that. What I'm saying is that while that may be true, personally, others have had the same if not more pressure and they managed to handle it well and when they didn't they are held responsible for their actions. It's just a matter of different perspective in my eyes, don't mean to say you're wrong. To me, people should take responsibility for their own actions regardless of their circumstances. If you feel different, that's fine. I understand the argument that others were involved, but to me that final decision was theirs; unless of course, they were forced to marry.

 

[Dman]

I understand that. What I'm saying is that while that may be true, personally, others have had the same if not more pressure and they managed to handle it well and when they didn't they are held responsible for their actions. It's just a matter of different perspective in my eyes, don't mean to say you're wrong. To me, people should take responsibility for their own actions regardless of their circumstances. If you feel different, that's fine. I understand the argument that others were involved, but to me that final decision was theirs; unless of course, they were forced to marry.

I agree with you. Charles and Diana had to be responsible for their own actions. Just making it clear that they are/were part of a very old institution, and there are lots of influences involved.

 

[Jacknch]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I know, but I think there was a lot of naivety going on both with Charles and Diana themselves and those around them.

I think they married each other for different reasons and thought they could change one another as time went on. As has been suggested in previous posts, had they got to know one another for longer they may well have realised it wouldn't work or they may well have managed to develop the relationship sufficiently enough to think that they could make the compromises and changes needed and that marriage would be the natural step forward.

 

[Dman]

Despite all of the drama, they shared some love and laughter with each other though. Diana and Charles had a great sense of humor and played games and jokes on each other a lot.

Charles was tickled to death when Diana put on some fake breast during a party one time. He used to tickle her at meetings at KP and they loved hitting the dance floor together whenever they could. I remember Diana couldn't stop laughing at Charles sporting a hard hat during their tour of a factory. His head looked like an egg in the hat and her laugh could be heard all over the place. Sometimes before they would part on a royal walkabout, they would kiss each other. Also, Charles loved patting Diana's butt when conducting official engagements.

There are tons of fun facts about Charles and Diana. Their marriage and relationship wasn't a total tragedy. A lot of their fun and humor as husband and wife aren't written about. I guess some don't think it sells.

 

[TLLK]

And because of moments like these I can understand how they could be friends.

 

[Dman]

And because of moments like these I can understand how they could be friends.

I just think it's sad people don't talk about the good times this couple had. People can go on and on about the bad drama, but folks can't find some time to talk about their happy times as husband and wife. There's plenty there if people care enough to look.

 

[Pranter]

As far as personal intrusions go, marriage within royal families (particularly the heir) are much more than private matters. They are issues of state.

Afterall that's the reason he couldn't marry Camilla in the first place and saved everyone a lot of grief.


LaRae

 

[Mermaid1962]

Exactly. Hence my comment re the Archbishop of Canterbury.

As far as personal intrusions go, marriage within royal families (particularly the heir) are much more than private matters. They are issues of state.

 

[Curryong]

As far as relatives and friends discussing marriage to Diana with Charles there were dissenting voices, few it's true, but Charles wouldn't listen to them.

The Queen should have had a long heart to heart about Charles's feelings, IMO, (though I know it isn't her style) and I have read that she refused to express any personal preference to her son lest she influence his decision, which if true was quite ill-advised. Prince Philip wrote to him urging him to make up his mind and not dither lest Diana's reputation be compromised, which apparently Charles was annoyed about and chose to treat as an ultimatum.

However, there were friends that Charles didn't listen to. His friends Penny and Nicholas Romsey sensed huge incompatibility and approached Charles several times with their concerns. Penny in particular felt that Diana, a very young 19 year old, was treating things like becoming Princess of Wales as a fantasy from one of her step grandmother, Barbara Cartland's books. She and her husband tried to express their reservations, Penny being more blunt and forceful each time (according to the Diana biography by Sally Bedell Smith) only to have Charles, who had made up his mind by this time, become seriously annoyed.

It's always been my contention that the couple's engagement was media-driven. They wanted a beautiful princess and they wanted an engagement NOW. This couple, with a very large age gap and huge divergence in interests, hobbies and views on the world, should have had at least a year of dating before any betrothal. The media would have created an uproar, but so what. Better that than the tragedy that followed for all involved.

Charles also, as the more mature of the two, should have listened to his heart and to his inner doubts IMO, which we now know he had. We know that he wasn't really in love with Diana, not that head over heels, heart-stopping feeling that everyone should have going into a partnership with someone for life.

It's a great shame all round that, looking back on it now everything seemed to roll inexorably on to an engagement and marriage, with few people, still less the groom saying "Hold on though, what about....?"

 

[Dman]

Charles and Diana coming together was pure fate.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Diana wanted to marry Charles and chased after him.
Charles wanted to marry Diana and went after her.

Both claimed they had doubts before they married. If they had doubts they should had postponed the marriage or called it off. They went ahead with it and they have no one else to blame but themselves.

They were both adults.
If they were old enough to get married they were old enough to stand up and make the decision to cancel the wedding. Neither made the choice to cancel or postpone the marriage and they are both responsible for their own decision.

If they felt pressured/rushed into the marriage by the media or their family it was still their responsibility to make their own decision. They made the decision to get married. They should be adult enough to stand by their decision and not blame others when the marriage failed.

I've felt for a long time that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, who had meetings with them and detected an incompatibility, had a responsibility to go to HM and say, "Excuse me, Ma'am, but I don't think that this marriage is advisable." As the Queen's pastor, in effect, he had a right and an obligation to do that. Had the marriage been called off, people would have been disappointed, but life would have gone on. Britain had certainly survived worse.

Did the Archbishop of Canterbury speak with Charles and Diana prior to the marriage or only after?
I can only find articles that he spoke to them after the marriage.

If it is true the Archbishop of Canterbury felt this way before the marriage, then it was his responsibility to tell the couple that he felt they were not compatible and to refuse to marry them. After telling C&D, he should have informed the Queen that he was refusing to marry them because they were incompatible.

Most clergy refuse to marry couples that they counsel or meet with that they felt were incompatible.

Afterall that's the reason he couldn't marry Camilla in the first place and saved everyone a lot of grief.

Charles never proposed to Camilla.
The insinuation that Charles was not allowed to marry Camilla is nothing more than a vicious lie.

 

[Pranter]

Vicious lie? Drama much?

I didn't say he ever proposed. It never got that far. We all know why.


LaRae

 

[Mermaid1962]

I remember reading comments that Runcie had made about his impressions during pre-wedding talks. I can't remember the source at the moment, but I'll look around and post it if I can find it.

My husband's a clergyman. He's not had a situation of talking to people whom he thought were incompatible; however, there was a case when he found out after a marriage that the groom had been cheating on the bride for a while before the wedding. People in the community knew, but no-one told my husband. Of course, he was quite upset when he heard, because he wouldn't have married them had he known. The marriage, unsurprisingly, broke down due to infidelity on the husband's part.

If it is true the Archbishop of Canterbury felt this way before the marriage, then it was his responsibility to tell the couple that he felt they were not compatible and to refuse to marry them. After telling C&D, he should have informed the Queen that he was refusing to marry them because they were incompatible.

Most clergy refuse to marry couples that they counsel or meet with that they felt were incompatible.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I like how people in here who are putting blame on anyone but Charles and Di are forgetting that neither of them was likely to listen to any dissention. Not only do most couples "in love" not care to hear the facts but Charles and Diana had pressure put on them from themselves to make it work. Diana was desperate to marry him and Charles was desperate to marry someone who could fit the insane requirements.
While normal couples have until the I Do's Charles and Diana had until they made the announcement; for those around them that was the end and there was no going back.

 

[Osipi]

Let's not forget the #1 reason not to call off the wedding. "Too late Duch, your face is already on the tea towels". Heaven forbid those merchandisers lost out out on a hefty profit.

 

[Curryong]

I think the "Duch" remark was a joke by Diana's sisters, wasn't it, a throwaway line that was said (and who knows whether it really was said) to soothe away nerves about the wedding? I think if Diana's siblings had really thought she was in turmoil, fearing the Camilla bond or anything else, they would have encouraged her to break the engagement.

Of course if Diana had been really close to either of them she might have been able to confide in them earlier. However, she'd always had a combative sort of relationship with Sarah, with sibling rivalry involved, while Jane was married to Robert Fellowes.

If she had real worries about the relationship with Charles her mother would have been ideal to consult with. At that time though, I think the Shand Kydd's were busy settling themselves on a rural property in Australia.

 

[HistoryGirl]

I like how people in here who are putting blame on anyone but Charles and Di are forgetting that neither of them was likely to listen to any dissention. Not only do most couples "in love" not care to hear the facts but Charles and Diana had pressure put on them from themselves to make it work. Diana was desperate to marry him and Charles was desperate to marry someone who could fit the insane requirements.

I tend to agree. I mean many people, including King George VI were not at all thrilled to have Phillip marry the Queen, but they were in love and had a commitment towards each other and the monarchy; turns out the dissenters were wrong In that case.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-strange-life-profile-of-prince-philip-1563268.html

Charles and Diana knew that it was quick and they hardly knew each other and there were cracks early on. However, they each had their reasons to surge on. It's not anything to villify either for, but that was their responsibility.

 

[Jacknch]

Posts concerning the relationship between Charles and Camilla and speculative posts relating to the sexual past of a member of the Royal Family have been deleted. This thread is about Charles and Diana, not about Charles and Camilla, so please stay on topic. Please also maintain a degree of respect towards one another.

 

[Denville]

I ten

Charles and Diana knew that it was quick and they hardly knew each other and there were cracks early on. However, they each had their reasons to surge on. It's not anything to villify either for, but that was their responsibility.

I agree. I think that they had dated, if they felt that they didn't know each other that well, that was their choosing. Charles could have waited a bit longer, or made time to see Diana more frequently, I think he was under pressure, because the public and his family WERE keen on Diana, and felt it was time to get him married and there was an element of thinking that if he had to marry a virgin (And I think he did), then if he let Diana go, was the next girl going to be even younger and a bigger age gap..
And there had been so much interest in the whole thing, that the RF problaby genuinely felt "we can't stand this going on for much longer and we dont want Diana to be kept waiting either..."
I dont see that it was anyone else's responsibility to tell him or her that it wasn't a good marriage, or whatever. I think that if his friends DID tell him so, he wasn't listening which is pretty typical of most people when they want to do something. They do it and ignore the stuff from friends or family (or clergymen).

 

[Pranter]

The media pressure on Diana was tremendous and that was another reason for the 'hurry up' decision. He had to fish or cut bait.

LaRae

 

[Denville]

well yes, The RF didn't wnat Diana to be subjected to that for longer.. and so I thtink it was a tragedy that could not have been avoided. If Diana had been more mature, she would have realised that she was not really interested in the same things that the RF are into... but she was immature, she was eager to marry well, because her upbringing had left her feeling that that was the only way she could fulfil herself -a socially prominent marriage, children and the security of being with a man who couldn't get a divorce. So i think she ignored any signs that she and Charles weren't compatible, and he too ignore them becuase he wanted to get his marriage sorted out. So when people say that "if they had known each other longer, they would't have married" iM not so sure. I think that the circumstances were such taht they COULD not have a much longer courtship and even if they could i think that Diana certainly would have gone on fooling herself.. becuase both of them for different reasons really wanted the marriage.

 

[Denville]

I think the "Duch" remark was a joke by Diana's sisters, wasn't it, a throwaway line that was said (and who knows whether it really was said) to soothe away nerves about the wedding? I think if Diana's siblings had really thought she was in turmoil, fearing the Camilla bond or anything else, they would have encouraged her to break the engagement.

O

I dont know if it was really said. I am suspicious of pretty much everything that Diana told Morton. But I dont believe that her sisters or anyone woudl have encouraged her to break the engagement for anything less than finding out something really terrible about C's character. It just would not be done.. and I dont beleive that they would consider his possibly still being in love with an old girlfriend as serious enough. As for her mother I don't believe she was close enough to her to ask for help, or at least if she had, Frances probalby wouldn't have been much help..

 

[Osipi]

I dont know if it was really said. I am suspicious of pretty much everything that Diana told Morton. But I dont believe that her sisters or anyone woudl have encouraged her to break the engagement for anything less than finding out something really terrible about C's character. It just would not be done.. and I dont beleive that they would consider his possibly still being in love with an old girlfriend as serious enough. As for her mother I don't believe she was close enough to her to ask for help, or at least if she had, Frances probalby wouldn't have been much help..

I believe Diana went to Australia for a few weeks with her mother and stepfather during the courting period. IIRC, Charles proposed to Diana but wanted her to take time before answering so that trip to Australia for about 2 1/2 weeks gave her time to think and being spent with her mother, they had plenty of time to talk about things.

If anyone knew Charles enough to advise Diana, it would have been her sister Sarah. Another person that could have been very much in the confidence of Diana leading up to the announcement of their engagement is none other than Countess Spencer (Raine). In 2012, two letters from that period went up for sale in auction by a private seller which hints at Diana's misgivings at the time.

Mysterious 'she’ who troubled Princess Diana before her marriage - Telegraph

 

[Denville]

Gosh Di's letter style to Raine is very gushy isn't it, considering that she later pushed her and previously had been furious with her father for marrying R. and it kind of demolishes the belief that Diana ddi not know about Camilla until she was engaged to Charles and so not able to break off the relationship.

 

[Osipi]

Gosh Di's letter style to Raine is very gushy isn't it, considering that she later pushed her and previously had been furious with her father for marrying R. and it kind of demolishes the belief that Diana ddi not know about Camilla until she was engaged to Charles and so not able to break off the relationship.

I think Diana's relationship was and on and off thing over the years. When Johnny and Raine married in 1976, Diana was in her mid teens and I think all 4 of the Spencer children didn't like the idea of Daddy marrying Raine. It does look like things warmed up between them though and probably stayed that way until Raine wouldn't allow the Spencer children to see their father when he became so deathly ill and in coma. At lot of Johnny's recovery from that is credited to Raine for her insistence on how his medical care was handled.

I have always thought that Diana knew how close Charles and Camilla were from the beginning but I don't think we'll ever know just how intimate that relationship was leading up to the wedding in 1981 and just how much Diana knew. I do believe that at the onset of the courting period, Charles and Diana did interact a bit with the Parker-Bowles which was totally normal as Andrew and Camilla were part of Charles' social circle of friends.

 

[Mermaid1962]

The horrible things between Diana and Raine seemed to happen in situations that were already emotionally charged; e.g., Charles Spencer's marriage and Diana's father's death. Possibly Diana was one of those individuals who get very caught up in other people's emotions as well as her own. For those with empathy and compassion, feelings can be overwhelming. If a person doesn't learn to handle this and distance themselves, they can end up acting out. It seems as though, in the Spencer family, blowing up and hurting people wasn't an abnormal thing. The late Earl Spencer was rumoured to hit Diana's mother, for example. If a child grows up in that kind of environment, they see it as normal even though it causes them great distress. Had Diana's parents had a stable marriage, I think that things would have been very different in the years to come. Jane seems to have been the only sibling who hasn't had serious problems.