Charles and Diana

[Ish]

Part way down Charles' back there is what looks like a 5th arm though. That's the questionable part.

 

[Roslyn]

Part way down Charles' back there is what looks like a 5th arm though. That's the questionable part.

That's just his sleeve, I think.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It looks to me as if there is another person there tapping Charles on the shoulder as you can see one hand of Diana's in front and then there are two behind him - one at his shoulder and one at his waist.

 

[Roslyn]

That's Diana's arm around his shoulder. Though it's a bit fuzzy, you can see the blue rock on her ring finger.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So there is still another hand on his back. She either has her hand on his shoulder or in the middle of his back but she didn't have three arms as far as I am aware and there are clearly three arms - two from Diana and another one from someone else.

 

[Roslyn]

No, I don't think there's an extra arm on his back. I see something that looks like it could be her three-quarter sleeved cardigan-covered arm behind his back, but I think that is just the edge of Charles' short-sleeved shirt and the shadow of Diana's arm.

 

[Dman]

Pages from the November 18th 1989 issue of HELLO! magazine, telling of Prince Charles and Princess Diana's royal tour of Indonesia and Hong Kong:
Hello! Magazine November 18th 1989* - Princess Diana Remembered

Looks like they had a great time touring Indonesia & Hong Kong.

Charles & Diana's Official Tour of Korea: 1992
http://www.princess-diana-remembere...-1992-charles-dianas-royal-tour-of-korea.html

The Wales Family Holiday in Spain with The King & Queen 1990:
http://www.princess-diana-remembere...as-summer-holiday-with-the-king-of-spain.html

 

[roseroyal]

Thanks for the article about the tour of Korea.

 

[Dman]

Thanks for the article about the tour of Korea.

I think they did some great things together and represented The Queen, UK and Commonwealth pretty well.

 

[anbrida]

An article about Oliver Hoare telephone call

Schoolboy with a grudge was Oliver Hoare telephone pest - News - The Independent

I think part of the problems of their marriage is because of the popularity of Diana among people. Charles is a pride but not confident man. In his eyes, Diana was a silly girl who can not even pass one O-level test. However, just with a pretty look, a wonderful smile, she got so much praises from the press and public. Charles must feel extremely unfair on this part.

Just like if you see a friend who you think has no wisdom nor insight can achieve a very easy success by good look, you must loath that and begin to distant yourself from him/her.

And I don't think Charles pay much attention to Diana's work either. Never heard a speech in which he praised her work when she was alive. The only time he said something about her work was after her death in South Africa.

On the other part, Diana also had some grudge herself. She must have thought, even though I had brought so much popularity into your family, but no one from this family had ever given me any praises or showed me any appreciation. For her lifetime, Diana had never received any medal about her work. But Camilla already had one. I think Diana was not sophisticated enough to know that, actually the more popular your are the more resentment you would get.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

An article about Oliver Hoare telephone call

Schoolboy with a grudge was Oliver Hoare telephone pest - News - The Independent

This article does not prove anything. The Independent claims it made "inquiries" Inquiries to whom? It quotes a "source close to Diana" and it also quotes a school official who refused to comment. Where are the quotes from police sources? If they had confirmed Diana's claims, the Independent would have reported that.

I really wasn't aware that Diana had tried to smear a schoolboy until some Diana fans repeated her slurs to defend her memory. If the so-called humanitarian lied about a teenaged boy who hadn't done anything to her, imagine how many of her allegations against Charles were untrue.

Up until a few weeks ago, I believed that both Diana and Charles were equally at fault in the breakup of their marriage. Some of Diana's fans have begun to convince me that Diana bore most, if not all, of the responsibility for the couple's problems.

 

[Dman]

"Up until a few weeks ago, I believed that both Diana and Charles were equally at fault in the breakup of their marriage. Some of Diana's fans have begun to convince me that Diana bore most, if not all, of the responsibility for the couple's problems."

I think you may have reached those conclusions on your own. Both Charles & Diana had problems and contributed to the breakdown of their marriage together. Laying all the blame on Diana to make Charles and/or other parties to look good is very unfair and very much unnecessary.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Diana's public lie that a child was to blame for the calls Diana made was very unfair and very much unnecessary.
I think false accusations are a big deal--especially when used to divert blame from oneself. Thanks for bringing this incident to my attention.

 

[Dman]

Diana didn't place all the blame on the little kid. The little kid made some calls but she very publically admitted that she called Mr. Hoare many times. She never really lied that she didn't make any calls.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Diana didn't place all the blame on the little kid. The little kid made some calls but she very publically admitted that she called Mr. Hoare many times. She never really lied that she didn't make any calls.

But the little kid didn't make any of the calls. If he had, there would have been a police source. The Independent only talked to Diana or someone on her staff. The police think she made the calls. IIRC, Diana's original defense was that she didn't know how to use a phone box--which was ridiculous.

She falsely accused the child of criminal behavior. How would you feel if that were you? What if that were your child? It's inexcusable.

 

[Dman]

I actually remember the story that a little kid did make some of the calls. I think I even heard other royal historians or royal correspondents talk about this very situation and mention that the little boy made some of the calls. He probably didn't know what he was really doing.

Diana wasn't perfect though. It was a rough time for her, Charles and the other parties involved. They all were making big mistakes but then again, that's what humans do. It's not an excuse but that's just how things are.

There was some bad days but they weren't all that bad. That's why I also focus on the good days and great times.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I actually remember the story that a little kid did make some of the calls. I think I even heard other royal historians or royal correspondents talk about this very situation and mention that the little boy made some of the calls. He probably didn't know what he was really doing.

How would royal historians or royal correspondents know? They are probably basing their conclusions on "sources close to Diana." She was mentally ill but, as a mother herself, she should have known better. How can anyone hurt a child like that?

 

[Dman]

Did she hurt a child? I don't remember hearing about the child crying endlessly or losing sleep over this situation.

Diana and Mr. Oliver Hoare was the ones being naughty here. The only person that should've been upset about all of that was Mrs. Hoare. I'm sure everyone has moved on from all that old drama after all these years.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Did she hurt a child? I don't remember hearing about the child crying endlessly or losing sleep over this situation.

At least the child was never publicly identified, you have no idea what happened to him. The paper asked the school about a specific child who had been expelled. His friends and family knew who it was. The family didn't come forward to protect the child's privacy. Diana knew how to manipulate people.

Also, the Hoare children were obviously hurt by the persistent and upsetting phone calls to their parents. It was a horrible thing to do.

 

[Dman]

At least the child was never publicly identified, you have no idea what happened to him. The paper asked the school about a specific child who had been expelled. His friends and family knew who it was. The family didn't come forward to protect the child's privacy. Diana knew how to manipulate people.

Also, the Hoare children were obviously hurt by the persistent and upsetting phone calls to their parents. It was a horrible thing to do.

I agree, Diana & Oliver was hurting other people but so was Charles and his current wife.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

I don't know what more there is to say that hasn't been said already or repeated many times on here, I haven't posted on her lately and just came across the post again today was reading some of the new posts. I had some new thoughts:

1. Diana parents divorce at a young age and her mother leaving was traumatic for her. I think that effected her own marriage with Charles.

2. As some say Diana was in love with the title 'prince of wales' more then the man Charles. Obviously she did loves Charles in those early days and she did love him father of her Children's , There Were happy times of course but again she like the title more anything. She thought Charles would Sweep her off her feet and be there at her every beck and call and would snuggle with her every day not realizing that he had a job as Prince of Wales and that he had social life as well. She didn't want to share with his friends, She wanted Charles all to herself. She on the other hands couldn't keep friends.

3. Age played a factor. Diana was very young and Naive and in the weed before the weeding was still a teenager. Charles was a Grown man. They were both had very different personality and had different interest and taste. Diana could never take a interest in Charles personal hobbies and enjoyment and I think Charles was the same Diana, He had a hard taking a interest in she like. If Diana was older like 26 or 27 closer in age to Charles things may have been different.

4. No one brief Diana on Royal Life or protocol including her Family, Charles or the palace. It was expected she would know everything from the start and would learn with the process. She was also the type who needed a lot of special attention which was hard for Charles when he was gone on engagement or whatever and she couldn't understand that he had a social life as well. She needed to marry someone who only. 8 hrs a week with weekends off and holidays with lot of vacation time. Charles also had hard time understanding Diaba in way because she was young and needed a lot of attention and so never explained to her. As women's in previous generations who married in grew into it quickly and understood things better.

5. Again They wanted different things, Diana wanted a man to sweep her of her feet and cuddle up to het and be at her side 24/7 and never leave which is Fantasy. She didn't realize how unrealistic that was and of course the partly had to do with age and the affect of her parents divorce

Charles wanted a 'Mother' more then a 'wife' who would rub his ears and tell him everything would be alright. I am not saying saying Charles mother never rub his as a child in a motherly affectionate way or that Diana should have done that but you get the point. His mother was absent at times in his life as she would be away somewhere or busy so she was always there to offer that Motherly love which was taken over by his Grandmother. He needed someone for that for that and Diana was not the type or understood. She wanted to be a wife not a mother to her husband. Camilla was willing to do all those motherly things for him and was willing to be a Mother type. .

Charles said on national television that his parents didn't love him enough which is why his marriage broke which wasn't really a Good idea to say on TV and blaming the parents for the crumbling of the marriage us not really smart either.

Maybe Charles as some suggested had Mama Issues or maybe he didn't but that a different discussion for another time

6. They are both 50/50 when it comes to the blame for the breakdown of the marriage. They both said and did things that was not a good idea or smart. They both I am regretted saying or some of things they said or did. At the time they didn't realize the impact it would have before it was to late. Charles did try and make the marriage work but when it became clear it was broke they gave up and turned to other people's. They both needed to attend some serious Marriage Counseling before 1986 if they wanted make it work but by 1990 it was pretty much broke beyond repair and would have been to late. The breakdown. Of the marriage is really complex and there wasn't one big issue and mostly a lot of small unresolved things that needed to fix but again it was complex and if they had attended counseling before 1986 it may have work.

When it comes to it: One wanted a mother, One wanted a husband who would shower all his attention in her 24/7. They were two very different people's with a big age difference which didn't help well. They both had very different interest and hobbies which nether were interested in the other person interests and hobbies. They needed someone who shared the same things that they like. They were sloth sensitive which can't always be good for a marriage. Charles like to spend time with his friends and socialize which Diana couldn't get. Charles always tried to bring her along. They both wanted different things

Bottom Line. Is that that they were not fit at all for each other at all from day 1 and were total opposite. If they had dated longer they would realize that and would have ended the relationship before it got to far.

If King George VI were alive I don't thing Charles would have married Diana.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I agree, Diana & Oliver was hurting other people but so was Charles and his current wife.

Charles and Camilla had an affair and Hoare and Diana had an affair. Are you claiming that Charles made hundreds of nuisance calls to the Parker-Bowles family and then blamed it on a young child?

The more I read your posts, the more I realize what a rotten person Diana was.

 

[Dman]

No, what I'm saying is that both Charles & Diana was doing unfair and hurtful things to each other. It's a sad state of affairs when marriages go sour and even bitter. It was a bad time for both and for others involved. It's very unfair to lay blame all on one person and even try to make it seem like one party was worse than the other.

I never said that Diana was a saint or heavenly creature that could do no wrong. I think it's sad that the press tried to make her look like one because I think it was doing Diana's memory no favors and it was unfair to Charles, Camilla and others. They all played a part in what was a bad time for all the families back in the 90's.

I just think if we talk about the failure of the Wales's marriage, it's best to be fair and realize both Charles & Diana was to blame for those events. To me, things get pretty one-sided when some goes on and on about what Diana did and her wrong doings but little to nothing about Charles's transgressions.

 

[Osipi]

I just think if we talk about the failure of the Wales's marriage, it's best to be fair and realize both Charles & Diana was to blame for those events. To me, things get pretty one-sided when some goes on and on about what Diana did and her wrong doings but little to nothing about Charles's transgressions.

I'd like to quickly address something here that I believe pertains to the state of affairs (no pun intended) at this time of the Wales' separation/marriage.

I do believe that both Charles and Diana didn't start seeking companionship and affection from other parties until it was to the point that, as Charles stated, the marriage had irretrievably broken down. They both were leading separate lives and from a marriage counselor's viewpoint (from my own personal experience), they were what is termed as "married singles". I can honestly attest to this being a very stressful state in which to be for anyone let alone someone like Diana who was also dealing with other issues and someone like Charles who never expected chaos and high drama in his life. Its a time where anyone under this kind of strain will and can do things that would seem uncharacteristic, illogical, crazy, and even sometimes make some really bad bad decisions.

In the end, sometimes love is letting the other person go. I think one of the major problems was that because of who they were, it took too long to finally divorce and go on with their lives. A lot could have been avoided I think.

 

[sirhon11234]

Charles and Camilla had an affair and Hoare and Diana had an affair. Are you claiming that Charles made hundreds of nuisance calls to the Parker-Bowles family and then blamed it on a young child?

The more I read your posts, the more I realize what a rotten person Diana was.

Different opinions makes this forum interesting.
I've always believed and will always believe that the failure of the Wales' marriage lies on both the shoulders of Charles and Diana. Two people who were spoiled and entitled. In a way I understood and couldn't blame Charles' resentment towards Diana. In his life he was used to having attention (just like Diana), used to hanger on's (just like Diana), and probably not used to one challenging him. Then here Diana comes. The unworldly girl he pulled from obscurity and made her his bride an essentially an icon over night. I remember seeing that he gave a speech in Washington D.C. a day after Diana danced with John Travolta. And during the press conference all the reporters kept asking about Diana and what she thought of Travolta and her dance with him. And I think Charles had said something like "Well I'm not a glum puppet you'll have to ask her."

I believe it was apparent that these two did love each other at one point. But ultimately became disappointed, angry, and hurt towards each other. Diana in her anger, difficulty, and immaturity didn't realize that her popularity could have been used to assist her husband and not to attack him. Charles in his anger and immaturity couldn't see that his wife was an asset to his role. They lashed out at each other.
A passage from Diana by Sarah Bradford she quoted Patrick Jephson from his memoir Shadows of A Princess,

"...Patrick Jephson witnessed an incident on the royal couple's tour of the Gulf States earlier that year, in March 1989. The royal host was offering his visitors coffee: The royal host and his senior guest [the Prince of Wales] were sticking manfully to their scripts... Plainly uncomfortable, the Princess was not joining in either, nor was she invited to by the Prince or her host.
She seemed to have created an invisible barrier round herself, as if to say that she was apart from the polite charade going on around her. To me she looked excluded and vulnerable. To the host as well, presumably, because eventually he leaned across the Prince to ask her politely what she was going to do during her visit. Under the unexpected attention she visibly brightened, perhaps thinking - as I was - of the serious programme we had arranged: visits to a day centre for mentally handicapped children, a clinic for immigrant women and a girls' business studies class.
The Prince also turned towards her, looking as if he were seeing her for the first time, ruefully indulgent, patronizing. There was an expectant hush. Before she could reply, he said with studied innocence, 'Shopping isn't it, darling?'

The words dropped into the marble stillness like bricks into plate glass. The Princess coloured, mumbled something inaudible and lapsed into silence. There was an awkward pause, broken by the Prince pointedly resuming his conversation with a host whose aquiline features now registered a politer version of the disbelief I felt.
When we were outside again I cornered John Riddell [former private secretary to the Prince and Princess of Wales]. 'Did I see what I thought I saw in there?' I asked him.
He looked at me pityingly. 'Oh yes, Patrick. Indeed you did. That is the world we have to live in.'

p 196 Bradford

IMO by the end of the 80s they were no longer interested in making the relationship work or communicating with each other.
In my family we have an old saying "In a marriage you must confront your problems within your home with each other and not bring and announce those problems out of your home."
I have always believed that Charles and Diana told everyone else about their problems but never opened a platform of communication to each other until much to late.

I never believed that Charles nor Diana are rotten or bad people. They obviously went through a bad marriage and made mistakes. But both decided to move on and start anew. Which is why their relationship improved in the end. This isn't black and white but very complex.
Again so much has been said on their marriage and more will be said for sometime.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

I hope the Royal Family never goes trough something like this again, Obviously they had divorce in the past (pre 1990) and there will probably be another someday but never something of the is magnitude! They had never dealt with something like this in modern time and weren't sure how to handle it, I am sure from now they will handle these things and Divorce differently and much better in the future in order to avoid something like this.

Some of the stuff that happened late 1980s and 1990s and things that were said and done and the behavior of some probably sent their ancestors rolling in their Grave.

I could only imagine what Queen Victoria, Alexandra, Mary and George V would all have said and thought.

 

[amaryllus]

Queen Elizabeth as a mother also....She must have Been so disappointed in her children at times and wondered if she had contributed or what she may done different..... surely even queens can have ovarian guilt.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

Queen Elizabeth as a mother also....She must have Been so disappointed in her children at times and wondered if she had contributed or what she may done different..... surely even queens can have ovarian guilt.

I agree, I am sure The Queen as a mother and like a lot of mothers even has some regrets and probably even some guilt and there were tines like any mother that she was probably disappointed in her children's but at the end of the she still loved them. She Probably does wonder what she did wrong or what she could have done differently when it came to her kids and their marriages.

I am sure Queen Victoria had the same thoughts when it came to her eldest son Edward and the scandals that he caused and all the affairs.

It interesting how things kind of repeated itself.: There is the prince of wales who is the heir and have waited their wholes lives for the job, Then there is their mothers (The Queens) who have had a long reign, the Princes of Wales cause scandals and controversies at times threatening the monarchy. The Mother becomes disappointed in their son (The Prunce if wales) for their behavior aand wonder if they are up for the challenge as king and wonder about the fate of the monarchy after they pass. This causes problem between mother and son (Monarch and heir). The prince of wales become unpopular and The Mothers (The Queen) also become a bit unpopular for while but then The Queen regain respect and has new new height of popularity as the Prince of Wales continue to suffer

Edward did a good job and was popular and would have probably made his mother. Happy.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Calling Diana a rotten person was over-the-top, but my post was in response to the excuses made by a Dianaphile for her less-than-savory behavior when she covered up her criminal harassment of a family by blaming a child.

The police investigated the phone calls to the Hoare household and concluded Diana made them. She then accused a child of making the bulk of the calls. If someone wants to convince me that Diana did not make all of the calls, please cite an article which uses police sources, the Hoares, or the child involved. I can't find one. The only source for this smear of a young child is Diana herself.

The family couldn’t respond because the only way they could do so was to publicly identify themselves as the family of the child who was expelled from school—which Diana knew they wouldn’t do. Diana used the media even though she hurt her own children, but she was reasonably sure that other parents wouldn’t do that. Diana manipulated the situation perfectly. No matter how you look at it, it was a terrible thing to do. She was 35 years old at the time.

To this date, I assumed that the responsibility for the breakup of the marriage was 50/50 although, like others, I blamed Diana for going public in a way that inflicted so much damage to her children and the royal family.

I agree that, before the wedding, Charles should have been more direct and honest with Diana about his feelings, but Diana should have been more honest with Charles about her true interests. I assumed the marriage fell into a common “death spiral.” One spouse complains and criticizes, the other withdraws. The more the other spouse withdraws, the more the first spouse complains and criticizes. Unless there is an attempt by at least one spouse to change their destructive pattern, the marriage fails.

But what if Charles didn’t withdraw emotionally? What if he did try and maintain constructive communication, but Diana pulled the same stunt she did when she lied and publicly blamed a child to cover up her criminal mischief? What if every time Charles tried to talk out their problems, she responded with lies and blaming others (staff, his friends, etc…)?

Let’s take it further and assume, as Dman and Scooter allege, Diana wasn’t mentally ill, just a manipulative liar. (I don’t agree by the way, I think she suffered from a severe mental illness, whether it was a personality disorder or she was bipolar). After a while, any normal person is going to get fed up with that type of behavior. I am going to have to give this more thought, but if Scooter and Dman are correct, the only thing I can truly blame Charles for is having an affair rather than getting a divorce earlier. As Osipi says, everyone would have been better off if they had broken up earlier.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

As someone said if William and Catherine ever get a Divorce ( Which I hope they never do!) it will be the ultimate death penalty.