Charles and Diana


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Diana was beautiful, photogenic, and fashionable (although many outfits look very dated now). Obviously the media was going to focus on her. If she hadn't become obsessed with her own press clippings and Charles had been jealous anyway, I would give the argument to Diana.

But the fact is, Diana herself was jealous when the cameras were not focused on her, so it was hypocritical for her (and her fans) to criticize Charles for being jealous.

The article I posted above gives two examples of Diana deliberately upstaging Charles. I've seen videos of when she was in the company of other members of the royal family and deliberately did things to focus the cameras on her. She would strike poses, make faces, etc...

Diana was better at getting media attention than Charles was. That didn't make her a bad person, but she knowingly made choices that hurt him and, therefore, their marriage. Then when her marriage broke down, Diana refused to take any responsibility.

To this day, some Diana fans continue to refuse to assign her any responsibility. They sometimes type things like, "she wasn't perfect," but then deny that she ever did anything wrong.

You also mentioned the supposed stuffiness of the royal family. She married Charles knowing that he was stuffy. It was a classic: "I love you, I adore you, now change" situation. If she didn't love Charles, she shouldn't have married him.
 
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Diana was a very jolly and lively person. She loved to laugh, interact with people she met and was very approachable. I really don't think she did things to take the attention off of the other family members. She was just being herself.

Also, I don't make excuses for Diana's actions. I place blame on the part she played in the breakdown of her marriage just as I do with Charles. They both did things they shouldn't have. It takes two to make a marriage go sour. Also, in her 1995 interview, Diana did take some responsibility for the breakdown of her marriage. she didn't say it was all Charles, Camilla or the royal family's fault. She aired her dirty laundry too.

What I don't make a habit of doing, is placing all the blame on Diana and make it seem like Charles, Camilla, royal family, media and men in grey coats didn't play a big part too. I make sure I spread the blame evenly and not all on a person who's no longer here to defend herself.

I also think the media did a very interesting job in making it seem like Diana was a saint or angle and the royal family were total monsters. I think the media is to cause of some putting a great deal of blame on Diana. I think that's shameful to her, her memory and a slap in the face to her two sons.

There was some good years Charles & Diana had together and with William & Harry. I think it's sad that people only focus on their marital troubles and ignore the good stuff that was there.
 
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Dman said:
Diana was a very jolly and lively person. She loved to laugh, interact with people she met and was very approachable. I really don't think she did things to take the attention off of the other family members. She was just being herself.
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As you have admitted, most of the media attention was naturally on Diana. That fact that she couldn't occasionally tone it down and allow some media attention for Charles and other members of the royal family provides a major clue as to how important her marriage actually was to her. Being happy in a marriage requires a series of compromises. Not playing the piano during a joint appearance with Charles doesn't seem like a big sacrifice for someone who wants to make her marriage work.

Dman said:
Also, in her 1995 interview, Diana did take some responsibility for the breakdown of her marriage. she didn't say it was all Charles, Camilla or the royal family's fault. She aired her dirty laundry too.
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Diana apparently mouthed the words that she shared responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage but she didn't elaborate. She certainly spelled out Charles's shortcomings--as she saw them--in detail. I think she only mentioned her affair with James Hewitt because he went public. She certainly didn't admit to her other affairs. I've read nothing that indicates that Diana understood how her behavior alienated Charles.


Dman said:
There was some good years Charles & Diana had together and with William & Harry. I think it's sad that people only focus on their marital troubles and ignore the good stuff that was there.
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I agree that there were good times, it's obvious from many of the videos. But Diana denied that there were any good times in the Morton book. The book denounced the whole marriage as a sham because she alleged that Charles never loved her and kept Camilla on the side throughout the marriage. That's why the world still focuses on the War of the Wales.
 
At the time of the Morton book, Diana was pretty upset and said things that weren't totally true. She, friends and others have mentioned that there were good times in her marriage.

Also the media pretty much like to focus on the drama of the Wales's marriage because people like to read about drama and juicy details. A lot of money and careers were made off of the drama. Some members of the media used Charles & Diana marriage for their own financial gain, even if they had to make up false stories and site "unnamed" resources for back up.

All wasn't total hell for the couple. There are videos, pictures and stories from those who knew the couple personally that Charles & Diana enjoyed each other and their family. I think others should put some focus on those good days of laughter, jokes, fun and family.
 
It wasn't just the book. During her TV interview three years later, she also made her famous comment about her marriage being crowded because there were "three of us" in the marriage. She planned the line in advance and knew it would be the most quoted line from the interview.

The quote was meant to reinforce the public's impression that the only reason the marriage failed was Charles's affair with Camilla. The only purpose of the interview was to destroy Charles.

It says a lot about his character that after all her efforts to destroy him, he made the first move to repair their relationship after the divorce. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Yeah, sadly when couples are fitting and upset with each other, they sometimes try to hit each other below the belt with words. I think Diana even told a friend that she went on to regret the interview. I think one of her drivers even told her that she should've let Charles look like the fool with his interview the year before she did hers. I don't think she liked his comments much and didn't talk to the driver for a while after that. Couples-married or not-fighting isn't pretty, especially when it's being done in public.

I'm glad they got on a good footing before her passing. I heard that when Charles got the call that Diana had been in an accident in Paris, he was getting himself prepared to fly there to be at her side. Sadly he was informed that she had died and he would have to bring her body back home. I think it was during the inquest that I read and heard Charles broke down on viewing her body at the hospital. It's such a sad thing that he lost her. I know some only saw them as enemies but I think there was real love there...on both parts.
 
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Dman said:
We also have to remember, Charles was very stiff, starchy and formal back in those days. I think it was very easy for the media to put a lot of the focus on Diana who seemed more approachable and friendly. Charles isn't the same guy Diana married in 1981. He's more loose, a little less formal and willing to connect with the people more. He bends down to talk to children and disabled, he like laughing and joking with members of the crowds. He picks up babies and is a bit playful.
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I made the observation about that pre-wedding interview I'd never seen, not to have a judgement on whose fault it was the marriage broke up! I have known enough divorced couples, dozens it seems, to know that it is always BOTH their faults (unless in cases of physical abuse)
Your comment above about how P Charles behaved is what I was after.
The interviewer is so deferential to Charles, and he is so used to taking over, it was interesting to watch. Yes, I do think he "loosened up" and modernized. That, and the way the children are able to handle themselves in the world they find themselves is one way she made her mark.
 
I was just thinking, Diana had talked about calling off the wedding at the last minutes but decided not too because their faces were on Tea Towels, etc.

Could you imagine the reaction there would have been if Diana had actually called off the wedding? Just a thought.
 
BritishRoyalist said:
I was just thinking, Diana had talked about calling off the wedding at the last minutes but decided not too because their faces were on Tea Towels, etc.

Could you imagine the reaction there would have been if Diana had actually called off the wedding? Just a thought.
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It would have caused a bit of a kerfuffle for a while, but it would have been preferable in the long run.
 
I would like to suggest that the moderators move this thread to the archives. Diana has been dead a king time and Charles is happily remarried. Rehashing things is not going to change anything. Time for a new start with the new baby.
 
Diana and her life, actions etc will be debated for centuries to come - she isn't going to go away - she is an historical figure and the marriage of Charles and Diana was an historical event - not just the wedding but the entire marriage - one with historical fallout.
 
:previous: Precisely.

Further, if all the threads which related to deceased royals or former royals were to be archived, this would only be a current events forum.
 
I agree, the marriage of the Prince & Princess of Wales is historically recorded and will be forever part of history. History is not something any of us cane rum away from and that goes for the royal institution too.
 
Grandma828 said:
I would like to suggest that the moderators move this thread to the archives. Diana has been dead a king time and Charles is happily remarried. Rehashing things is not going to change anything. Time for a new start with the new baby.
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It's nice that you are interested in the current events surrounding Prince George. I find the story of Diana and Charles very interesting and I learn something every time I read a new post. If you are not interested, you are not required to read the thread. :)
 
I've always doubted that story (that Diana thought of calling off the wedding but didn't because her face was on the tea towels).

I remember that interview she gave with Charles, when she mentioned that it wasn't a difficult decision because:

"It was what I wanted. It is what I want!"

She sounded pretty determined there.
And I remember one of the Palace servents telling how, the night before, she was riding his bicycle and kept ringing the bell and shouting I'm going to marry the Prince of Wales tomorrow!

She was quite serene at the ceremony and didn't seem like someone having second thoughts. JMO.
 
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The wedding was a pretty happy event and overwhelming for Charles & Diana. I think they gave an interview saying that they happily cried afterwards.
 
Mirabel said:
She was quite serene at the ceremony and didn't seem like someone having second thoughts. JMO.
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I rewatched the video after William and Catherine's wedding and she actually struck me as really stressed the day of the wedding. But I didn't get the impression she had second thoughts or was unhappy. I think she was nervous because there were hundreds of millions of people watching her at that moment and she hadn't learned to love the media attention at the time.

The most touching photo of the day was Diana, sitting on the floor with that huge dress in a circle around her, looking up at Charles, who was bending over to talk with her. She looked serene and happy in that picture.
 
If we compare the two weddings we have to keep in mind that Diana and Catherine where of different age and had very different backgrounds and experience.
Catherine seemed very mature,calm and content even though there was enormous pressure on her and she was aware that she was being watched (and judged) by million people all over the world.
Diana was much younger,idealistic and excited about the prospect of her fairytale wedding. I can only guess but I do believe that she wanted to get married and hoped that somehow things would work out well.
The Princess of Wales admitted that she has met Charles only 13 times before they got married (secret tapes interview),that is not a lot and certainly a short time span to thoroughly get to know a person,especially someone as complex as Prince Charles. He always seemed to be a very thoughtful and intellectual type who cherishes traditions and prefers an understated,sophisticated lifestyle. Diana seemed more outgoing,jolly and modern in her thinking and way of doing things. I guess they have learned and benefited from each other because they complement each other in their different character traits and personalities. Unfortunately they did not manage to make their relationship work,but I firmly believe it takes two people to ruin a marriage,it is never the fault of just one single person.
 
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I don't think 'ruined' is the correct word, I rather believe that the marriage didn't work from the start as different as they both were, and it only started to emerge some years after the big day. Adjustment to each other and how willing/capable each party is in that particular thing plays a big role.
.
 
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The problem with the marriage was Diana's was selfish and didn't take into consideration Charles wishes, views and feelings.

She was insensitive to her husband's feelings from the beginining.

Charles told her to decorate KP & Highgrove however she wanted.

She decorated the KP bathroom/s with cartoons of Charles, including negative cartoons.

Would she have liked to have negative cartoons of herself staring at her everyday?

She plasters her true feeling of her husband on the walls of KP. Their sons, guests and staff who visited/cleaned the bathroom/s saw these cartoons.

She decorated KP and Highgrove to suit her taste, never consulting her husband. (Yes he told her to decorate them but she still could have asked for his input.) KP & Highgrove were very feminine.

When they separated, Charles had Highgrove redecorated as a masculine place.
 
:previous:
I understand what you're getting at but the problem with listing such domestic examples as these, while maybe valid, is that they can come across as nitpicking. From this distance the themes should be broader and in this particular example we could say there was a failure to communicate and take into account individual sensibilities.
Otherwise the danger is that the discussion descends into a brawl where relatively insignificant slights from both sides are tossed into the ring and the tone of the discussion turns from calm analysis and considered opinion to charged polarisation.

I appreciate that there are factual examples which undermine some of the bland assertions made to gloss over some less savoury aspects of Diana's behaviour. For exmple, the statement "Diana never deliberately upstaged Charles" is easily disproved without having to go into detail about her quite deliberate upstaging of the Duchess of York's debut official engagement. But I'm not sure there's much point in dragging it all up again: members will choose to believe what they want to believe. The problem with Diana discussions, and it's something the Mods learnt from very early on, is the emotional investment and sense of personal injustice and even bitterness held very firmly and sincerely by some members. No matter how many facts are thrown around, it doesn't matter. Then there's the initial virewpoint: most of us come to the British Forum as supporters of the Monarchy as an institution with an understanding that the Sovereign is pre-eminent. That's not necessarily the case for all members who instead view the British Monarchy and House of Windsor through the prism of Diana. From that viewpoint, Diana has the rightful pre-eminent role and Elizabeth II is or should be subservient to it. For some, Diana is the one and only Princess of Wales, and the pivotal figure around which the Monarchy and Royal Family revolved and to some extent still revolve. That's just the way it is.

Those attitudes and views are deeply held and are unlikely to change. Therefore attacking them with facts or barbs only creates or heightens a defensive attitude and drains any enjoyment from the discussion. Recent experience has shown that the introduction of broader themes to a discussion will bring out the more analytical and considered observations and insights. As a result we've seen some interesting exchanges of views in what used to be dangerously contentious threads. It boils down to members talking to each other rather than at each other.
 
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Warren, could you give me more info about this? I don't remember Sarah's first official engagement, and I'd like to look up the details. Thanks.:)

Warren said:
For exmple, the statement "Diana never deliberately upstaged Charles" is easily disproved without having to go into detail about her quite deliberate upstaging of the Duchess of York's debut official engagement.
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:previous: I think that many people still think of both Charles and Diana in black and white terms. There's a tendency to still think of things as they were during the War of the Waleses during the early-to-mid-90s, when both parties in the marriage were at their lowest emotionally and were telling their memories, as they saw them, through a very dark lens. Anyone who followed those stories has a hard time being neutral on anything having to do with Charles and Diana. At least, that's how it appears to me having been in various royal forums since the late 90s.
 
Claire S said:
In all the conversation I've read on this thread I am surprised about a few omissions and wonder why these facts are not generally conceded: that Charles was indeed a very generous husband, that he was a very good father and that through most of the 80's their married life was under one roof and very much domestic and home-centered. I wonder why this is not more generally acknowledged on a forum like this with so many well-informed posters. :ermm:
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Because we now know that from the mid-80s that was a facade and that they actually weren't living as a family from about 1986.
 
Iluvbertie said:
Because we now know that from the mid-80s that was a facade and that they actually weren't living as a family from about 1986.
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You are right. A good portion of their lives was a façade. Who, what, when and where no longer matters. It is long past. Charles was hardly a paragon of virtue and Diana was difficult and had great problems. But, as I said. It is long past. Let the dead rest. And let the living, live a story which was made to fit the tale, today. They both had great shortcomings. Many lies have been formulated, especially for Charles, as he has had to live on and create an precept that denigrated Diana and created a myth.
 
Just to clarify, are you really suggesting that Charles has created a myth to denigrate Diana? If so, would you please cite your sources.
 
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I can see how Charles has had to recreate people'd perception of him, and in doing so has lead to people debunking the myth of Diana...

But I don't think that the perception of Charles as it is today is a myth, nor is the perception of Diana as being a flawed person a myth. Contrary to what some individuals may believe, she wasn't a Saint. She was very human and had her fair share of flaws, something that in the height of her divorce she was very reluctant about admitting publicly (and since then some of her more fanatical fans have continued to refuse to admit).
 
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