British Royal Family Genealogy

[norenxaq]

marc:

thank-you. however, I am looking for what the original article maintained and how it compares to the lineage I and a friend worked out. the latter is what you posted. I am also interested in any other possibilities

 

[Leslie2006]

The United States presidents up until a certain point were also former British subjects. Is it possible that some of them could've been British nobility as well?

 

[norenxaq]

nobility? no. but their ancestors were

 

[battle]

Bridging the Gap: Ethnic Strains in the British Royal Family

The Monarchist League of Canada: Our Multicultural Monarchy - OUR MULTI-CULTURAL MONARCHY

www.monarchist.ca/redbox/ourmulticulturalmonarchy.doc

As well as being the great family tree of Canadian history, the Royal Family also connects us directly with the wider panorama of recorded human history, embracing the four corners of the world and many of its races.

ARAB Queen Elizabeth II descends from the Muslims who created the Arab Andalusian civilization of Spain. Since some of those people sprang from the family of the Prophet, the Queen herself is a descendant of Mohammed. When Her Majesty visited Morocco in 1980, the Moroccan media pointed out this Islamuc ancestry of Canada’s Queen.

ARMENIAN The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from both the medieval Armenian Kings and from the earlier rulers of ancient Armenia.

AUSTRIAN (and SWISS) All the immediate Royal Family have Habsburg ancestors who came originally from Switzerland, and who created the state of Austria.

BOSNIAN Stephen Tvrtko, who his made his Kingdom of Bosnia the greatest Balkan power in the Middle Ages, is an ancestor of The Queen through her grandmother Queen Mary.

BELGIAN Although the modern Belgian state dates from only 1830, the Belgian cultural heritage is that of old Burgundy. The famous Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, is a direct ancestor of Charles, Princes of Wales. Pictures show them looking remarkably alike !

BYZANTINE GREEK The Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip) has the blood of the Angeloi and Sommenoi Emperors of the East as well as of the famous Palaeologus Sovereigns of Byzantium in his veins.

CHINESE During the visit of Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty’s lineage to the Tang Dynasty, whose Emperors provided the Chinese Empire with a period of great peace, prosperity and artistic achievement.

CROATIAN The Croatian ancestry of The Queen includes the House of Subic. Her Majesty is also descended from several Bans of Croatia.

CUMAN The Cumans originally lived in southern Russia before being driven west into Hungary by the Mongols. Kutyen, their Khan, is an ancestor of Charles, Prince of Wales.

CZECH All the Bohemian Kings who left children are ancestors of Charles, Prince of Wales.

​

DANISH Through the Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip) the Royal Family is Danish in the male line.

DUTCH William the Silent, Prince of Orange and founder of the Dutch state, is a forebear of Charles, Prince of Wales.

ENGLISH Charles, Prince of Wales, descends from every English King who left descendants except Charles I, Charles II and James II. The Prince’s sons, Prince William and Prince Harry of Wales, are descendants several times over of Charles I, Charles II and James II through their mother, the late Diana, Princess of Wales.

FRENCH Queen Elizabeth II is descended from Saint Louis, who was King Louis IX, the most famous medieval King of France, and from many other Carolingin, Capetian and Valois Sovereigns. Through their mother, the late Diana, Princess of Wales, Princes William and Harry of Wales are descended five times over from Henri IV, King of France, who sent Champlain to Canada, and who by insisting that commercial activities in the new land be accompanied by settlement, laid the original foundations for the French-speaking community of Canada.

GEORGIAN Now once again an independent country, Georgia was a Kingdom has long ago as the days of the Greco-Roman world. The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from many of its ancient and modern monarchs.

GERMAN German ancestry makes up a good part of the Royal Family’s background. Included in it are the great medieval Emperors and the dynasties of Bavaria, Saxony, Hesse, Baden, Mecklenburg, Brunswick and Anhalt, as well as such famous families as Hohenlohe, Moltke and Trauttmansdorf. Frederick the Great was an ancestral uncle of the Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip).

IRISH Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother brought into the Royal Family the blood of the Dal Cais and Eoganacht dynasties of Munster and that of the Ui Neill High Kings. Charles, Prince of Wales, also descends from Brian Boru, Nial of the Nine Hostages and the Iron Age sacral Kings of Tara.

ITALIAN The Dukes of Savoy, the medieval Kings of Sicily, the Orsini of Rome, the Visconti of Milan, the della Scala of Verona and the Doria of Genoa are among the many Italian families whose blood has come to Charles, Prince of Wales.

JEWISH Charles, Prince of Wales, descends from the Colonna family who were Jewish in origin. He also has descent from the Khazars (see below) who adopted Judaism as their religion. The Queen and her family enjoy another Jewish descent from an historical figure named Makhir. He was a Jewish Prince of the Davidic Royal House sent by Caliph Harun-al-Rashid as ambassador to the Emperor Charlemagne at the end of the 9th Century. Makhir remained in Europe where he founded a family, one of whose descendants married into the medieval English Royal Family.

KHAZAR The Khazars formed a powerful state between the Byzantine Empire and the Islamic world. The Queen is descended from Menu Morat, Elteber of the Bihar Khazars.

LITHUANIAN The Queen is a descendant of Gedimin, the last pagan King of the Lithuanians who died in 1341.

MONGOL The Prince of Wales (Charles) is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. This relationship provides The Royal Family with another link to China, for Genghis Khan’s grandson Kublai Khan became Emperor of China and founder of its Yuan Dynasty.

NORWEGIAN Harold Haardrade, King of Norway, and the old Norse jarls of Orkney are ancestors of Charles, Prince of Wales.

PERSIAN Through their mother, Princes William and Harry of Wales descend from Arsakes Vologaeses V Dikaios Epiphanes Philhellen, sacral King of Parthia, and of the Parthian Royal House of Arsaces who ruled Persia (Iran), Mesopotamia and Babylon (Iraq). The Parthian kings claimed descent from the earlier Achaemenid Dynasty. If true, this relationship makes the young Princes descendants of Cyrus the Great, and establishes a blood link with Classical Greece.

POLISH The original Piast Dynasty and Jagielonian Kings up to Sygmunt I (d. 1548) are all ancestors of The Prince of Wales (Charles). During her visit to Poland in 1996, The Queen made public reference to her Polish royal ancestors.

PORTUGESE Alfonzo, Duke of Braganza, is an ancestor of The Royal Family. The Holy Constable who secured Portugal’s independence is also an ancestor several times over of Princes William and Harry of Wales.

ROMANIAN Queen Mary, grandmother of Elizabeth II, brought Romanian blood into The Royal Family as well as Hungarian. Thus the Queen is descended from Vlad Dracul, Prince of Wallachia and father of the original Dracula !

RUSSIAN The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from Peter the Great and Catherine the Great as well as the princes of the Rurik period. The later Russian Emperors through the murdered Nicholas II were close relatives of The Royal Family.

SCOTTISH King George VI (his grandfather) and the Duke of Edinburgh (his father) together provide the Prince of Wales (Charles) with twenty-two descents from Mary Queen of Scots and over two hundred from Robert the Bruce.

SERBIAN Serbia’s greatest ruler, Emperor Stephen Dusan, and the first King of Serbia, Stephen I, are both ancestors of The Queen.

SPANISH Ferdinand and Isabella, sponsors of Columbus’ expedition to America, and the epic Spanish hero El Cid are among the notable Spanish ancestors of Elizabeth II.

SWEDISH Through Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, his son The Prince of Wales (Charles) is descended from the Peace Kings of Uppsala and the rulers of Sweded in the age of the sagas, as well as many other of the historic figures of that land.

UKRANIAN Elizabeth II is 31st in direct descent from Volodymyr Monomachus, ruler of the Ukraine.

WELSH As is appropriate for a Prince of Wales, Charles is descended from Llywelen the Great and most of the Welsh Kings and Princes back to the time the Romans left Britain.

 

[battle]

CHINESE During the visit of Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty’s lineage to the Tang Dynasty, whose Emperors provided the Chinese Empire with a period of great peace, prosperity and artistic achievement.

This line has not be substantiated. It beseemeth me that the genealogies of Central Asia hold the key to this conundrum.

If the line stands they are, more importantly, descendants, not just relations, of this Chinese Emperor. I only wish the Chinese people who made this claim had provided us with a line on which they base their claim.

RootsWeb

A guess and an observation. The guess -- it's through the Turks. AFAIK its the Eastern Turks who have Chinese affiliations and the western Turks who can be traced further west (though not to Europe to my knowledge) -- but an East-West connection doesn't sound unlikely. The observation -- the T'ang were descended from an ephemeral Liang dynasty. Maybe this is the starting point of the ancestry rather than the main T'ang line. It would certainly be interesting to know the details of this claim.

http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-01/1073628486

> During the visit of HM Queen Elizabeth II to China in 1986, articles> published in the Chinese media traced Her Majesty's lineage to the Tang
> Dynasty of China.
>
> Can anyone here build a bridge to the 10th century on this? Turks maybe?
> Or Mongols? Probably one or t'other. I reälize that nothing here is
> certain, (or, in the parlance, 'for sure')l but hoping that some suggestions
> might eventually lead to a more expository product.
> Also, could anyone here produce, or does anyone here have a table for the
> Khazars? How about Cumans, Petchenegs, Bihars, Polovtsy, etc.?

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

Hello:

following is what I came up with as a possibility:

Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib (Governor of Tarsus)
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron) (also Oshin I, Lord of Lampron born circa
1040/1050, died 1110)
Hetum II (Lord of Lampron 1110-1143, died 1143, married NN)
Auschin II (Lord of Lampron 1143-1170, born circa 1125, died 1170, married
after 1143
Schahantukhd Savén Pahlavouni)
Hetum III (Lord of Lampron 1170-1200, born 1151, died 1218, became a monk,
married NN daughter of Thoros II, and secondly NN)
Constantine I (Lord of Lampron 1220-1249, born circa 1180, executed29 June
1250,
married Stephanie, daughter of Constantine of Barba'ron)
Hetum IV (Lord of Lampron, corn circa 1220, executed 29 June 1250)
Alix (died after 1312) m.(1279) Balian d'Ibelin (Senechal of Cyprus, died
February 1302)

From here on details are in ES

Guy d'Ibelin
Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan
James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
Louis
Peter
Marie m. Francis Bourbon
Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
Mary m. James V of Scotland
James VI
Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
George I
George II
Frederick
George III
Edward
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II

there might be other lines as well

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

Li Min Hui
Li
Li On Ching
Li Liang
> > Li Hu
> > Li Bing, Duke of T'ang, ob. 572, m. Lady Tuku Yüan Chên (of interesting
ancestry)
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu, (High Progenitor) 618-626, (Li Yuan, v. 566-635),
m. Tu T'ai Mu
> > Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung, (Supreme Ancestor) 626-649, (Li Shih-min, n.
599), m. Wen-te, ob. 636
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung, (High Ancestor) 649-683, (Li Zhi, n. 628), m.
Empress Wu 690-705, (n. ca. 625), dt. Wu Shihou by
> > Lady Yang, (related to Sui dyn.)
> > Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung, (Far-sighted Ancestor) 684-690, 710-712, (Li
Dan, v. 662-716), m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> > Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung, (Profound Ancestor) 712-756, (Li Lomg-ji, n.
685), m. Yang Guifei, (related to the Sui dynasty)
> > Emperor T'ang Su Tsung, (Respectful Ancestor) 756-762, (Li Yu, n. 711)
> > Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> > Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> > Sharwin I 772-797
> > Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> > Shahriyar I 797-825
> > Qarin I 837-867
> > Abul Melik
> > Surkhab
> > Abul-Hamza

At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain Vasak Artsrouni who he supposes to be a brother of
Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very little information on any of these people and
it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a further examination of the primary evidence to
confirm or deny this.

 

[battle]

I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to be unproven until further evidence comes to light.

>
> Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4

Khatchik (note that this is the same name as his probable descendant below) or Gagik II Artsrouni, King of Vaspurakan (908
- 943/44). He was born in 879 and d. 943/44. His wife was Mlke, see commentary above (Toumanoff, p. 91).

The _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (III: 2154) transliterates his name as Xac'ic and says that he was crowned king of
Vaspurakan by the Muslims in opposition to the Bagratid king Smbat I.

>
> Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972

Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).

>
> Derenik

Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).

>
> Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042

Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).
Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually means he is guessing or going on very vague
evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted him on to the place that fit best in the main
Artsrouni family tree.

>
> Hasan
> Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus

Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92). There seems to be no evidence for the forename
Hasan.

>
> daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110

Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoff
gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).

From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places where there are errors. For the generations
before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more uncertain.

>
> Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
> Auschin II, 1125-70
> Hetum III, 1151-1218
> Constantine I, 1220-49
> Hetum IV, ob. 1250
> Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin

The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).

The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).

>
> Guy d'Ibelin
> Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan

Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (the
last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18 Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI ).

>
> Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
> James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon

His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 & "A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.

>
> Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)

Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco del
Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).

The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483), daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from primary sources would be nice to unravel this
tangle.

See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.

>
> Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
> Louis

These two generations should be eliminated. See above.

>
> Peter
> Marie m. Francis Bourbon
> Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
> Mary m. James V of Scotland
> James VI

The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: The
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.

>
> Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
> Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
> George I
> George II
> Frederick
> George III
> Edward
> Victoria
> Edward VII
> George V
> George VI
> Elizabeth II

The generations from James VI & I to Queen Elizabeth are obviously correct.

>
>
> there might be other lines as well
>
> _

There might be, certainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of Lampron.

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Fw: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap

 

[LaPlusBelle]

This is pretty cool and fantastic if it is true. I wonder if the BRF has any connections to Ethiopian, Egyptian or Moroccan royal families.

 

[battle]

Royal Descents

Mods if this should go to a new thread please do. But as we were talking about Charlemagne here is a list of the Presidents of the United State of America who are/were actually descended from Charlemagne to related to the British Royal family and most of the other royal families of Europe.

Many Americans descend from these 17th-century British colonists who had royal descent.

Royal Descents of famous people

Roberts estimates that 100 million Americans can be got onto one family tree, with relationships to over 500 famous people: "a large quantity of my research concerns the 'New England family' - probably 100 million contemporary Americans descended from 5000 - 8000 Great Migration immigrants of 1620-50. If you have 50 or more sets (husbands and wives) of Great Migration immigrant forebears, you are probably related to almost all of the 100 million, within the range of 8th-12th cousins. The probability of kinship to notables is fully 100 percent, and the number of such 'household name' distant kin probably surpasses 500, possibly 1000."

NEHGS - Articles

Edward III is "often described as the ancestor of the British upper-middle class" [Burkes Presidential].

Edward III
Sources

Roderick W. Stuart claims millions of descendants of Edward III in America alone: "Edward III is the latest king from whom a large number of Americans and Europeans can claim descent. His American posterity numbers in the millions." [Stuart, 1998].

Sources

Royal descent really is not all that bizarre. I would say that most Americans who had English or Scotch ancestors in the US prior to 1800 would probably have multiple royal descents. The fact is, kings had children, like any other person. Those children had children and so on. By the third generation or so, those second and third and fourth sons were marrying into local families. They formed the upper and middle classes. True, because of that, their heritage was usually much better recorded than those of the masses who may not have had access to scribes and clergy on a level that the middle and upper classes did.

Because of the male primogeniture inheritance laws in England and Scotland, this class who were descendants of kings but no longer royal or even noble made up a large part of the first wave of immigrants to the US. They had the money and/or means to do so and there was nothing to keep them in the old countries. They came here like everyone else--to start a new life. "Peasants" did not start arriving in the US en masse until later, although that does not mean that the "royal" descendants who arrived early did not have "peasant" descents as well, because they did have those too. This group was already a very mixed lot and formed part of the original base of the human melting pot that is the United States.

Yale Statistician claims everyone with European Ancestor related to English Royalty. (genealogy, record) - Ancestry research, historical records, genetic analysis, sharing data, locating family - City-Data Forum

 

[norenxaq]

Ethiopia and Morocco link by way of Hailie Sellassie's wife, who has a descent from Mohammed. this would make them distant cousins as the Sultans of Morocco also descend from the Prophet. Egypt? what time period? Whether Elizabeth II shares a descent from Mohammed is an open question. She is probably related collaterally

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

This is always a fascinating topic, though a minfield. The legitimatists always amuse me; they come from families that acknowledge salic law and morganatic marriage, yet are happy to be "claimants" through female lines to the Stuart inheritance. Isn't it a fact that there are legitimate dynasts (should they wish to claim it) descended from Charles I Stuart ancestors who have long been British subjects. This is all academic as the Act of Settlement is to all intents and purpose part of the constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Yes, there are many descendants of the last English king, Harold Godwinson in Britain and the Commonwealth.

Actually, the reason the Jacobites can make their claim through the female line is precisely because there is no salic law in Britain.. and because a Queen Regnant had been established in England long before the Stuart kings arrived on the scene.. beginning with Mary Tudor. The fact that the "heirs" lived in a country where salic law was recognized is irrelevant, as the claim would have been under the jurisdiction of the laws of Britain.

The Jacobites had no choice but to follow the "legitimate" line of succession, which it would have been if the Stuarts had not been ousted from power.

That claim would have fallen to Henrietta Anne, Duchess of Orleans, and her heirs. She was the youngest daughter of Charles I, and the only person who could make a claim to the throne after the male line of Stuarts failed.

There was no one else. James I was the only child of Mary, Queen of Scots. Charles I was his only surviving son. Charles II had no legitimate heirs.. and James II's line ended with Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart.

Henrietta Anne had two daughters. On the death without issue of Marie Louise, Queen of Spain, the claim then fell to her sister, Anne Marie, Queen of Sardinia.

What the British did was to name Sophia of Hanover as the heir because she was Protestant and was the niece of Charles I.

In her case, she had lots of siblings.. but four of them never married, one drowned at 15, one married but had no issued, one was excluded because he was Catholic, and her brother Charles Louis, Elector Palatine, had divorced his wife and entered into a bigamous marriage with another woman. His only legitimate son died without issue as well.

Charles Louis did have a daughter, but her only son married the illegitimate daughter of Louis XIV, which I suppose also put him out of the picture.

I don't really view the claims of the Jacobites as any different from the claims of Henri, Count of Paris, to the French crown.. except of course, that there is no longer a French crown.

If Prince William ditches Kate Middleton in favor of Princess Marie-Caroline of Liechtenstein, then the whole thing can be put to rest . He'd have to wait a few years, however, since the Princess is only 14!

(that last part is a joke )

 

[Warren]

If Prince William ditches Kate Middleton in favor of Princess Marie-Caroline of Liechtenstein, then the whole thing can be put to rest . He'd have to wait a few years, however, since the Princess is only 14!

(that last part is a joke )

A putative eldest child of William and Marie-Caroline becoming the undisputed heir of both the Windsors and Jacobites would only work if the first-born was a son and Marie-Caroline's elder brother Prince Josef Wenzel died without issue.

As it currently stands, Josef Wenzel, future reigning Prince of Liechtenstein, will become the Jacobite 'claimant' following the deaths of the Bavarian Dukes Franz and Max and of his mother Hereditary Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

You never know, Warren.. after all this time, the Jacobites might just be satisfied with a marriage between their line and the Windsors
It would, after all, put another Stuart on the the throne.. eventually .. regardless of the fact that Josef Wenzel is the actual heir..

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Prince Charles and Andrew Parker-Bowles - Kissing Cousins?

While sorting through my newspaper clippings recently, I noticed that in the engagement announcement for Tom Parker-Bowles that he was listed as a "scion of the Earls of Macclesfield".

This rather intrigued me - I had not paid much attention to it before - so I did some digging into the ancestry of Andrew Parker-Bowles, since he would be the descendant of the Earls of Macclesfield.

Of course, that was easy to trace and I found the Macclesfield connection, but

I also found out that Andrew is the first cousin of John Francis Bowes-Lyon, Fiona Bowes-Lyon Goodhart and David James Bowes-Lyon.

The three Bowes-Lyons are the children of Major-General Sir Francis James Bowes-Lyon, KB, and his wife Mary de Trafford. Lady Bowes-Lyon, is Andrew's maternal aunt - the sister of his mother Anne.

Maj-Gen. Sir Francis was the grandson of the Honourable Francis Bowes-Lyon, an older brother of Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

This makes John Francis, Fiona and David James Bowes-Lyon, 3rd cousins of the Prince of Wales.

So it seems Charles and Andrew have more in common than just Camilla..

Was anyone else aware of this connection?

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think that I had read about about a connection between the Parker-Bowles and the Bowes-Lyons and that this is why Andrew Parker-Bowles was friendly with the Queen Mother.

So it seems Charles and Andrew have more in common than just Camilla..

Was anyone else aware of this connection?

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Is Parker-Bowles really hyphenated? I thought it was just plain "Parker Bowles."

I was unaware of the connection. Wonder why we hear nothing of the Bowes-Lyon side of the clan. There seem to be many Bowes-Lyon cousins of varying degree. Fiona, John and David must not desire any kind of limelight.

"So it seems Charles and Andrew have more in common than just Camilla.. " Didn't The Princess Royal have a relationship with Andrew Parker-Bowles???

 

[captainmooreway]

"So it seems Charles and Andrew have more in common than just Camilla.. " Didn't The Princess Royal have a relationship with Andrew Parker-Bowles???[/QUOTE]

She's had an alleged on-off affair with him over the years, although funnily enough the newspaper's usually report it at the same time every year- around Royal Ascot- when they spend time together.

 

[wymanda]

Kent Family & Huntington's

The Duchess of Kent's brother recently died from Huntington's Disease (Huntington's Correa). The obituaries indicate that he inherited the disease from his mother. Thankfully, the Duchess and her family are free of the gene.
Does anyone know of a family tree for the Duchess that would enable tracing of the Huntington's gene?

 

[oneofthem]

And here is another reason why most of us here have royal ancestry (but many don't have the documentation to prove it)....of all the people alive in the 1300's, only 10-15% have left descendants. The reasons why are simple...disease and high mortality rates. Most children didn't see their 5th birthday and those that did were lucky to live to 40. Then you have all the diseases which were rife at these times. The Black Plague wiped out over a third of the population of Europe....entire family lines were extinguished. The noble and royal classes, though affected by these events and such, were far less affected than the general populace. Their descendants managed to survive better than everyone else, hence all of us alive today.

 

[Wisteria]

I read once a very interesting book of a family who had existed and lived in the same area in a mansion in the north of England for a recorded almost 1000 years. The writer of the book said that the amazing thing about his family was that no one had really made any mark on history in that time. and that perhaps the most amazing ancestress was a lady who lived in the 17th century and had 16 children. Before you laugh at that,think about what he said next - every single one of those children survived, she did NOT lose even one. When one thinks about the disease and danger of those years that lady should be remembered with respect, she knew her work as mother very well.
Most family trees make for sad reading, my own husband´s grandfather´s diary was a list of children born and died within hours days and even years. Terrible.
There are many people who have their family tree very well recorded and can trace back without a doubt to the first Kings of Europe but they are mainly of people who still belong to the aristocratic classes, as unfortunately, they are the ones that took pride in their family and made sure it was all written down, not to be forgotten.
Once browsing I found a "fantastical" genealogy that said it proved that Queen Elizabeth II was a descendant of Anthony and Cleopatra.
If there is a claim of notable ancestors I prefer to be like St. Thomas, seeing (in this case the proven family tree) before believing.
I agree with oneofthem, the aristocrats were better fed and could avoid the plague and other ills better than the poor common people, hence their survival, although many Kings and Queens have gone down in history of dying in epidemics.

 

[Lenora]

I don't think the Queen is a descendant of Prophet Mohammed and Chingis-Han,it's a beautiful legend.And even less true is her connection to Vlad the Impaler(Dracula),she has no blood of him,as the last Romanian king had only German blood,they were invited to rule Romania

 

[oneofthem]

I don't think the Queen is a descendant of Prophet Mohammed and Chingis-Han,it's a beautiful legend.And even less true is her connection to Vlad the Impaler(Dracula),she has no blood of him,as the last Romanian king had only German blood,they were invited to rule Romania

Why...can you prove your assertion??. There's a great amount of genealogy that's been done by very learned historians and genealogist that would say otherwise. Just because the last Romanian King had German blood doesn't make QE II not a descendant of Vlad, or anyone else for that matter. William of Orange was Dutch, that doesn't mean the Queen isn't a relation of Ivan the Terrible. She is

Family lines branch off in all different directions...she doesn't have to be directly descended from Vlad to be a relative.

 

[Warren]

....And even less true is her connection to Vlad the Impaler(Dracula),she has no blood of him,as the last Romanian king had only German blood,they were invited to rule Romania

The last Romanian King is irrelevant to HM's descent from, among many many others, the Voivodes of Valachia [Wallacia].

Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Albany Herald of Arms and President of the Association of Genealogists, detailed in "Royal Highness, Ancestry of the Royal Child" [Prince William], 1982, the line of descent (p101):

"Today, perhaps the most famous of [Prince Williams's] Romanian relations is Prince Vlad Dracula 'the Impaler', an ancestral uncle who took the surname of Dracula because his father Prince Vlad Dracul was proud to be a Knight of the Dragon."

The line of descent:

Mircea I the Old, Voivode of Valachia and Despot of the Dobrudja, d 1418
v
Vlad II Dracul, Voivode of Valacia 1430-46
v
Voivode Vlad IV the Monk d 1507 (natural brother of Voivode Vlad Dracula the Impaler who was slain 1476)
v
Radu IV the Great, Voivode of Valacia 1495-1508
etc to
Gregor, Baron Inczédy de Nagy-Várad, d 1816
v
Baroness Agnes Inczédy de Nagy-Várad (d 1856) m László, Count Rhédey de Kis-Rhéde, d 1835
v
Countess Claudine Rhédey de Kis-Rhéde, d 1841, m Duke Alexander of Württemberg, d 1885
v
Francis, Duke of Teck, d 1900, m Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge
v
Princess May of Teck, later Queen Mary, consort of George V, King of Great Britain, Emperor of India
etc

 

[Lenora]

Yes,thank you,but he is an ancestral uncle.But when I hear "descendant" I understand the direct descendant as "greatgrandgrand...son"

 

[AnnEliza]

And here is another reason why most of us here have royal ancestry (but many don't have the documentation to prove it)....of all the people alive in the 1300's, only 10-15% have left descendants. The reasons why are simple...disease and high mortality rates. Most children didn't see their 5th birthday and those that did were lucky to live to 40. Then you have all the diseases which were rife at these times. The Black Plague wiped out over a third of the population of Europe....entire family lines were extinguished. The noble and royal classes, though affected by these events and such, were far less affected than the general populace. Their descendants managed to survive better than everyone else, hence all of us alive today.

Yes, evidently there are many many European and American (of European descent) who are descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt, who lived through the plague in the 14th century. I was able to trace my line to him, because my grandmother traced her lineage for the DAR, and there was a book published of one of her ancestors, tracing him back to England, etc.

 

[oneofthem]

Yes, evidently there are many many European and American (of European descent) who are descended from Edward III through John of Gaunt, who lived through the plague in the 14th century. I was able to trace my line to him, because my grandmother traced her lineage for the DAR, and there was a book published of one of her ancestors, tracing him back to England, etc.

Not just John of Gaunt....you also have descendants through Lionel of Antwerp and Edmund as well. I have a number of lines going to both Lionel and John.

Actually, the present Queen, by all rights, shouldn't be where she is...she is descended via several illegitimate offspring and quite a bit of skullduggery and/or downright usurpation. It all boiled down to who had parliament's backing and how much money they paid the pollies off with.

Plus, it's not just Europeans and Americans with descent from these people, either...despite the seemingly parochial focus on just Europe and America (mostly the US), there's just as many people of European and UK descent living outside of these two places as there are living in them, who can (if they manage to find the genealogical proof) claim descent from them. What about Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, Singapore, India, Malaysia, South Africa, Chile etc. Plenty of people of both European and UK descent in all those countries.

 

[AnnEliza]

Yes, I am aware of that, and meant to indicate all people of European descent.

 

[Lenora]

The descendants of Georgiana,the Duchess of Devonshire

I 've read in Wikipedia that Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson are direct descendants of Lady Georgiana via her illegitimate daughter from Lord Grey.I've never heard about Sarah's connections with this family.Is Diana direct descendant of her?
Who are Lady Georgiana's present day descendants?

 

[Marc23]

Yes,it's true...Almost half of aristocratic Britain today are descendants of Georgiana...

Sarah Margaret Ferguson had noble ancestors through her father and through her mother's side of the family...

Her father is a great-grandson of William,Duke of Buccheleuch and Queensberry(family of Alice,Duchess of Gloucester),descendant of Dukes of Abercorn,Dukes of Bedford...as well as descendant of King Charles II through his illegitimate son with Duchess de Kerouaille...

Her mother on the other hand is also a descendant of the Charles William,Duke of Buchleuch amd Queensberry which makes her related to her husband,Sarah's father and of course,with Dukes of Gloucester...
Her mother is also a descendant of the famous Duke of Marlborough,Dukes of Argyll,Dukes of Montagu and so on...

 

[Grandduchess24]

Weren't prince Charles of wales and princess Diana cousins in some way ?

And weren't princess Diana cousins with the ex duchess of York, Sarah ferguson through lady Georgiana Spencer,duchess of Devonshire?

 

[Leslie2006]

Yes, they were. Check out the 'royal cousins' thread. To keep it short, Diana was a legitimate descendant through Georgiana's only son, while Sarah is an illegitimate descendant through Georgiana's daughter, Eliza - the result of Georgiana's affair with Charles Grey.