Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings

[BrazilianEmpire]

Hi, everyone!

I'm a Brazilian Royalist.

Many of us, Brazilian Royalists, believe that Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg would be an amazing Empress consort to our country.

Our Imperial Family has a kind of House Law that dictates that a Brazilian Dynast must marry equally, to keep his rights to the Throne.

Now, we have only one male Dynast in age to marry and have children, Prince Rafael of Orleans-Braganza (Príncipe Dom Rafael de Orleans e Bragança, in portuguese), so, His Royal Highness will soon have to find a Princess, marry her, and produce Dynast.

Prince Rafael is the fourth in the Line of Succession to the Brazilian Throne, behind his father and two childless uncles. So, he'll certainly become the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House and, eventually, Emperor of Brazil.

I would like to know opinions of other Royalists.

Thank you.

 

[fearghas]

Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg might be a little too closely related for many people. They are second cousins. I'm not worried about them being such close cousins but more by the nember of times they are related. Alexandra has three descents from Dom Miguel of Portugal the brother of King Pedro IV, the ancestor of the Brazillian monarchs. andRafael has two descents through his mother, the Princess de Ligne. That means that there children will have fives descents from a fairly recent ancestor. I think he would be better off with a Princess of Lobkowitx or someone who doesn't have so many common ancesters

 

[TomBert]

How about Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal? There's an 11 year age difference, but it could work if the Prince is willing to wait. Eleonore of Austria might also be a possibility.

BrazilianEmpire, what happens if the young prince marries unequally like his uncles? Do you think the family and monarchists would accept him inheriting the headship of the Imperial House if no other dynasts are left?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg might be a little too closely related for many people. They are second cousins. I'm not worried about them being such close cousins but more by the nember of times they are related. Alexandra has three descents from Dom Miguel of Portugal the brother of King Pedro IV, the ancestor of the Brazillian monarchs. andRafael has two descents through his mother, the Princess de Ligne. That means that there children will have fives descents from a fairly recent ancestor. I think he would be better off with a Princess of Lobkowitx or someone who doesn't have so many common ancesters

I know they are second cousin, both great-grandchildren of Charlotte of Luxembourg. His parents, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina represented the Brazilian Imperial Family at her brother's wedding, last October. But, this is the problem with the Royals, they are all related.

We believe that this proximity would make things easier for Prince Rafael, to "conquer" Princess Alexandra. His uncle, the Prince of Ligne, is Alexandra's godparent. The Royalists had an idea: a kind of a party at Beloeil (the Ligne's castle, in Belgium), if many young Royals. So, Prince Rafael and his sisters, Princesses Amelia (28) and Maria Gabriela (23), could find suitable consorts. We think in Prince Ludwig of Bavaria for Princess Amelia, and Prince Josef-Emmanuel of Liechtenstein for Princess Maria Gabriela.

For Prince Rafael, we also like Princesses Maria-Anunciata and Marie-Astrid of Liechtenstein. Also his second cousins, again through Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg.

I know nothing about the House of Lobkowitx, sorry. Can you give me some information.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

How about Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal? There's an 11 year age difference, but it could work if the Prince is willing to wait. Eleonore of Austria might also be a possibility.

BrazilianEmpire, what happens if the young prince marries unequally like his uncles? Do you think the family and monarchists would accept him inheriting the headship of the Imperial House if no other dynasts are left?

The Infanta is too young. Prince Rafael must marry and have the children within the next ten years. The Brazilian Imperial Family is dying out, we need a new generation as soon as possible. He has two sisters, but he is the only one who can pass titles for his children.

Well, as I said, the equal marriage was never mentioned in the Imperial Constitution of 1824. But, during the Monarchy (1822-1889) all the marriages of members of the Imperial Family were equals.

In 1908, Princess Isabel's (the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House) oldest son and heir, Prince Pedro, decided to marry an austrian countess, Elisabeth. Princess Isabel decided that such a marriage would be unequal, and ordered that his son resign from his position as a brazilian Prince and heir to the Throne. And he did so.

His rights passed to his brother, Prince Luís. Also in 1908, he married Princess Maria Pia of Two Sicilies. They had three children: Princes Pedro Henrique (1909-1981) and Luiz Gastão (1911-1931) and Princess Pia Maria (1913-2000).

Prince Pedro Henrique, in 1937, married Princess Maria Elizabeth of Baviera. They had 12 children. Today, they are all alive, but only five of them still have succession rights: Princes Luiz and Bertrand (both unmarried), Princess Isabel (also unmarried), and Prince Antônio and Princess Eleonora (who married the Ligne siblings, Cristina and Michel).

Prince Rafael doesn't really need to marry a princess, he doesn't even needs the consent of his uncle, the Head of the Imperial House. So, if he decide to marry a commoner, there's no problem. The majority of the Royalists would accept. His parents too. Prince Luiz will probably not like, but he can do nothing.

But, from what I know about Prince Rafael, I'm pretty confident that he'll follow his father's footsteps, marrying a princess. He said this in an interview, last month.

 

[Ceallach]

He really should be looking for wife now, not in 10 years, and not a 2nd cousin.

Since they have close ties to Belgium (mothers Ligne family) a better choice would be the 2nd cousin of his 2nd cousins Maria Laura of Belgium and Austria-Este, also 26. Or another Austrian cousin of a 2nd cousin: Priscilla (33) or Marie-de-Neiges of Austria (26).

Princess Maria Laura Photos - Europalia attracts Belgian royals - Zimbio

His cousin married a Stolberg and the wedding was in Brazil and Louise of Stolberg-Stolberg (28) was there and also seems to be his cousins Alix de Ligne best friend. Other Stolbergs: Dorothee (31), Anna (30), Marie Agnes (25), Johanna (23), Anja (23), Edina (28), Marie Valerie (23), and Marie Victoria (33). The Arenbergs, Merodes and Croys are close to their cousins and attended recent weddings: Anne-Helene of Arenberg (23), Marguerite (26), Ines (25), Lara (22), Eliane (22), Elisabeth (29), Marie (28), Catherine (27), and Valentine (32) of Merode, and Xenia (22), Rosalie (22), and Stephanie (32) of Croy. I do not think he has ventured out to weddings or other events outside Benelux so a girl with ties to that area and his cousins is likely.

Louise with Alix (blonde)
Google Image Result for http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/7019751/img/7019751.jpg

Anne Arenberg
Google Image Result for http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56665/1946293-princess_anne_h_l_ne_of_arenberg.jpg

Some other possible princess matches: Philippa of Hohenzollern (24), Sophie of Holstein (29), Olga (28) and Cecelia (22) of Leiningen, Viktoria Luise (30), Irina of Prussia (24), Aglae of Baden (31), Elisabeth (30), and Maria Theresia (32) of TnT, Therese (25), Gisela (22), and Leopoldine (20) of Liechtenstein, Karina of Romania (23), Theodora of Greece (29), Leonie of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (26), Olga of Mecklenberg (24), Agnes of Looz Corswarem (33), Ines of Georgia (31), Johanna (27), and Elena (23) of Reuss, Johanna (31), Theresia (28) and Valerie (26) of Orsini und Rosenberg, Caetana (28), Luisa (26) and Dorothea (22) of Orsini de Gravina, Ludmilla (26) and Ysaline (24) of Lobkowicz, Margarita of Erbach (26), Theresa (28), Antonia (25), and Nora (22) of Oettingen-Spielberg, Sophie (24), Amelie (22), and Victoria (22), of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, Klara of Waldburg zu Wolfegg und Waldsee (27), Caroline (26), and Diane (22) of Neipperg, Marie Gabrielle of Parma (30. Bernadette of Bavaria (26), and probably not Beatrice (24) and Eugenie of York (22).

 

[Stefan]

I think they should look to Germany as there are many catholic (which i guess the bride should be) Princesses/Countesses in the same age group. I think Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg as well as the 2 Liechtenstein Princesses are to close related. For example one of the older daughters of Hereditary Count Erich of Waldburg zu Zeil and Trauchburg and his wife Mathilde, née Duchess of Württemberg, Countess Marie Therese (born 1989) and Countess Elisabeth (born 1990). Through their great grandmother the late Comtesse de Paris they are also related to the Brazilian Royals but more distant.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Hey, thanks for the list of princesses! Many of them are suitable for Prince Rafael.
I believe the Bavarian princesses are close to him, as his grandmothe was Princess Maria Elizabeth of Bavaria (1914-2011).
And I think that the York princesses aren't fit for the role of Empress.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

I think they should look to Germany as there are many catholic (which is guess the bride should be) Priincesses/Countesses in the same age group. I think Priness Alexandra of Luxembourg as well as the 2 Liechtenstein Princesses are to close related. For example older daughters of Hereditary Count Erich of Waldburg zu Zeuil and Trauchburg and his wife Mathilde, née Duchess of Württemberg, Countess Marie Therese (born 1989) and Countess Elisabeth (born 1990). Through their great grandmother the late Comtesse de Paris they are also related to the Brazilian Royals but more distant.

Yes, Prince Rafael must marry a Catholic princess.

Well, Princess Alexandra is the monarchists favorite option because she's the daughter of a reigning Monarch.

A marriage between Prince Rafael and her will bring a lot of media atention for the Imperial Family and the Monarchist Moviment, which is getting strong.

Also, she lives the everyday of a Monarchy, she knows how to deal with the life of a Princess, and will be able to be an good Empress.

Princess Alexandra will help the Monarchist Moviment to improve the chances of restore the Monarchy.

 

[NGalitzine]

Didn't the monarchists lose rather badly in the last referendum?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, the last referendum was in 1993, and the Monarchy received 13% of the votes. Not so bad, after 100 years with a law which forbade monarchist movements.

Also, the Government put a lot of obstacles, to make difficult our chances of restore the Monarchy: they changed the date of the referendum (from September for April), the Head of The Imperial Family wasn't allowed to make any campaign of TV or radio, and only the descendents of Emperor Pedro II (1825-1891) who didn't had any rights to the Throne were allowed to campaign (and they made a terrible work). They also said that the Monarchy would bring slavery back (and was Princess Isabel who put an end in slavery, in 1888).

And, during the referendum, people had to choose between Monarchy and two types of Republics (Parliamentary and Presidential), which gave double chances for the Republic.

Now, without much Monarchist campaign, 21% of the population are in favor of a restoration, and the Monarchist Moviment is getting very strong. The Imperial Family is becoming more activy.

We really have chances, in the next 15-25 years, because the political situation here is horrible. A great corruption scandal has just arise, and the ex-president (who is form the same party of the actual) is envolved. There's no solution for the Brazilian Republic, Monarchy is the only option. Even an ex-president, last week, said that the Monarchy was better.

 

[Ceallach]

The only issue with Alexandra of Luxembourg is they are 2nd cousins and then some. It is somewhat frowned upon. However, Queen Elizabeth of the Uk and Philip are second cousins, as are her aunt Marie Astrid and her husband Carl Christian, plus so are Aimone of Savoy and his wife Olga of Greece. Maria Laura of Belgium is still pretty prominent.

The problem with the last referendum was there should have been more focus on Antonio and his family. When Spain returned the monarchy it has not with the father but the son.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Oh, certainly. But Princes Luiz and Bertrand are over 70 years old by now. So, in the next referendum, Prince Antônio will be the Head of the Brazilian Imperial House, and we'll be able to show that Brazil will be represented by a wonderful family, with Prince Antônio, his wife, Princess Cristina, and their chlidren and grandchildren.

 

[Ceallach]

We think in Prince Ludwig of Bavaria for Princess Amelia, and Prince Josef-Emmanuel of Liechtenstein for Princess Maria Gabriela.

Also Prince Amedeo of Belgium, Alexander, Johannes, Thomas, Franz, or Michael of Austria, Francois, Foulques and Robert of France, Wence of Liechtenstein, Georg of Saxony, Paul-Anton of Esterhazy, Carl Philipp of Croy, Lelio Orsini of Gravina or another Italian, and Alexander of Hohenzollern or another German. Since Georg of Prussia married a Catholic I would not exclude non-Catholics too.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

The Princesses' husbands will have to be conscious that they'll have to live and raise their children in Brazil, as brazilians citizens. Because Prince Rafael and his wife will need help with the burden of official duties.

The Head of The Imperial House will be able to give them brazilian titles.

 

[Ceallach]

If the expectation is that both remain in Brazil then heirs to other monarchies are out. However, it might not hurt if one marries an heir creating another link to European royals.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Yes, the husbands can't be the heirs to a throne or a royal house. The Princesses and their children will be needed in Brazil.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

i think Princess Maria Laura of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria-Este would be a fine candidate as they don't come more royal than her.. so would Princess Constanza della Torre e Tasso, a member of the Italian branch of the Mediatised House of Thurn and Taxis.. or possibly Princess Luisa Eleonora Orsini, a scion of the most illustrious House of Orsini and who's mother is a Bagration princess..

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, we are very interested in marriage between Prince Rafael and a Princess from a reigning family, like Luxembourgo, Liechtenstein or Belgium.

 

[NGalitzine]

Good grief. It sounds like a meeting of the Kennel Club. Does poor Rafael get any say in who his future wife may be or is he just to be led to the altar and joined with a suitable blue blood from the Gotha?

 

[USCtrojan]

Good grief. It sounds like a meeting of the Kennel Club. Does poor Rafael get any say in who his future wife may be or is he just to be led to the altar and joined with a suitable blue blood from the Gotha?

Just what I was thinking


How is the prince supposed to meet these lovely ladies? Is his family calling up Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria-Theresa asking them for a meeting between the prince and princess Alexandria so that they can meet? Also, who is to say it would work out?

I understand why families require this -these days it seems so hard to arrange a marriage, so perhaps changing the rules and allowing him to marry for love, might be good.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Good grief. It sounds like a meeting of the Kennel Club. Does poor Rafael get any say in who his future wife may be or is he just to be led to the altar and joined with a suitable blue blood from the Gotha?

Of course the Prince has a say on that! Las year, he was interviewd by a Monarchs magazine, and he said that he pretend to marry a princess.

As his uncle, the Head of the Imperial House, always says, "for a Brazilian Prince, the duty with the country always come first." Prince Rafael knows that his duty is to marry a princess and produce heirs to the Throne.

His late brother, Prince Pedro Luiz, was in Europe looking for a royal wife. He dated his second cousin, Archduchess Marie Christine of Austria.

His sister, Princess Amelia, is now living and working in Europe, were she's is in contact with lots of princes of Benelux and German areas.

Meets with Princess Alexandra will not be a problem for Prince Rafael, as they already know which other. His mother, Princess Cristina, is Grand Duke Henri's first cousin, she and Prince Antonio represented the Brazilian Imperial Family at Prince Guillaume's wedding, last year. Rafael's uncle, the Prince of Ligne, is Alexandra's godparent.

He will not be forced to marry a princess. He will marry fo love. The general hope is that he falls in love with a princess.
.

 

[USCtrojan]

Alexandra is a beautiful princess, so I would agree that this would be a great match if they are in fact or do in fact fall in love!

Just for my understanding -he must marry a princess no matter what or he will loose his right to the throne? Could they not make an exception if is the only one left being that he has only sisters (correct)?

 

[NGalitzine]

Would losing his rights to a throne that has not existed for more than 120 years be that big a deal? It always seems so odd when families who long ago lost their thrones try and enforce rules that actual reigning families no longer hold to.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, the Imperial Family caring about succession means that they still care about Brazil.

And the Monarchist Movement is getting strong. So, if the Monarchy is to be restored, we'll need a Emperor, or a Empress, don't you think?

There's no mention about equal marriages at the Imperial Constitution, so, Prince Rafael isn't required to marry a princess, nor he's required to seek his uncle's (the Head of the Imperial Family) consent to get married. But, the equal marriage is a kind of costume, maybe a House Law, and all Princes and Princesses follow it.

In theory, he can marry anyone. But, as I said, he pretend to marry a princess. And the Monarchist Movement, that is getting very strong nowaday, believe that Princess Alexandra is a wonderful choice.

And we still have the children of the Prince and Princess of Ligne: Henri Antoine and Alix, they're in the Line of Sucession to the Throne, after their mother, Princess Eleonora.

Also, there is the Saxe-Cobourg and Braganza family, the descendents of Princess Leopoldina (1847-1871), Emperor Pedro II's second daughter..

 

[NGalitzine]

Lets just say I am not putting any money on a return of the Empire.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Lets just say I am not putting any money on a return of the Empire.

No problem. The restoration of the Monarchy in Brazil will have no effect in Canada.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Isn't there another line also?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Isn't there another line also?

There's a kind of confusion. People belive that the Imperial Family has two lines, and that there's two claimants to the Throne. Nonsense.

There are descendent from Princess Isabel's oldest son, Prince Pedro, who renounced, in his name, and in name of his descendency, the rights to the Throne. They are Princes and Princess of Orleans-Braganza (a french title), not Princes and Princess of Brazil.

The Imperial Family has only nine members:

1. Prince Luiz, Head of the Imperial Family, born in 1938.
2. Prince Bertrand, Prince Imperial, born in 1941. Prince Luiz's brother and heir.
3. Prince Antônio, born in 1950.
4. Princess Cristina, Prince Antônio's wife, born in 1955, as a Princess of Ligne.
5. Prince Rafael, born in 1986, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina's oldest living son.
6. Princess Amelia, born in 1984, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina's first daughter.
7. Princess Maria Gabriela, born in 1989, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina youngest child.
8. Princess Isabel, born in 1944. Princes Luiz, Bertrand and Antnio's sister. She's unmarried.
9. Princess Eleonora, born in 1953. Also a sister of Prince Luiz. She is married to the Prince of Ligne, and lives in Belgium.

Prince Luiz has another twelve brothers and sisters. But they renounced their rights to the throne, in order to marry commoners.

Princess Eleonora's children: Prince Henri Antoine and Princess Alix of Ligne, are also in the line of succession.

The same goes for the House of Saxe-Cobourg and Braganza, descendents from Princess Leopoldina of Brazil (1847-1871).

 

[cmbruno]

Me neither.
And yes, the prince must marry one equal because all of his uncles that did not do it were asked by D Gastão to sign a document resigning to any hereditary rights they might have. Worse, his branch has the succession rights now only because Princesa Izabel made her first born abdicate of his rights because he married a non royal noble.
So, if only to save the Vassouras' branch face he should marry a royal lady.
I think this is a ridiculous situation nowadays but it is what it is.