Bowing and Curtseying

[Henri M.]

In almost all monarchies the curtseys have become relicts.

Even in the UK, see the latest public royal appearance (new James Bond movie) and even in the Houses of Parliament (Queen's Speech) you hardly saw ladies curtsy, when the Queen walked past.

Today the president of Italy visited the Vatican with great ceremonial. He was dressed in tails and white tie and wore orders. But even Signore Giorgio Napolitano, the Presidente della Repubblica did not bow for the Pope, nor did he kiss his ring. Sua Santità Benedetto XVI was not offended at all and welcomed his 'neighbour' from the Palazzo di Quirinale with the greatest charm.

 

[BeatrixFan]

That's not strictly true Henri M. Although it's not the done thing to curtsey when a member of the Royal Family walks past, it is done alot when people are introduced to Royalty here. However, there are exceptions - I've been to two memorial services held for Royal personages and when members of the Royal Family passed, the men gave a bow and the women curtsied. So it does still happen. It's never really happened at the State Opening of Parliament because of the nature of the ceremony - people in the Commons are supposed to show their objection to the idea of the Queen giving a speech etc. But it does still happen and certainly isn't a relic.

 

[Prince of Chota]

How are the Emperor and Empress of Japan ranked? They should be above all the kings and queens, based on the European distinction that "Emperor" ranks above "King," shouldn't they? Or has this been eliminated since the Tenno is now the only reigning emperor left?

 

[BeatrixFan]

They'd be above all others I think. I might be wrong but I think I've got a photograph in a book where Queen Elizabeth II is curtseying to the Emperor of Japan. I know for definate that Queen Margrethe has. Commoners of course do a full waist bow to the Emperor and his wife.

 

[Madame Royale]

They'd be above all others I think. I might be wrong but I think I've got a photograph in a book where Queen Elizabeth II is curtseying to the Emperor of Japan. I know for definate that Queen Margrethe has. Commoners of course do a full waist bow to the Emperor and his wife.

I would be so interested to see the picture of Queen Margrethe curstying to another sovereign. Could you provide it please, Beatrixfan?

 

[BeatrixFan]

I'll see if I can find it. I think it was on her State Visit to Japan a few years ago.

 

[Bijoux Roy]

I was watching the ascension video of HSH Prince Albert II of Monaco. They were just finishing Mass at the Cathedral. HRH Princess Caroline walked over to Him and curtseyed, showing the proper respect He deserved. If His own Sister can afford Him that respect, then so can we.

I would never curtsey to the Prime Minister of my country, as it's the incorrect form of address. And certainly never to George W. I would shake their hand, not because I particularly like either one of them, but as a sign of respect for the positions they hold.

I would most certainly curtsey to HSH Prince Albert or HM Queen Elizabeth or any other Royalty for that matter. Its proper etiquette and respectful.

When in doubt in another Country, hold to their rules and you won’t go wrong. Or look incredibly rude for not doing so.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

While it is nice to respect other countries' traditions, people from other countries are not expected to bow or curstsey to these royals.

If you choose to do it, by all means, go ahead. HM EII does not expect Americans, for example, to bow or curtsey to her.

 

[carlota]

I would be so interested to see the picture of Queen Margrethe curstying to another sovereign. Could you provide it please, Beatrixfan?

madame royal, i know that margrethe curtsied in the reburial of empress dagmar to the coffin. it is actually the photo of the month for denmark, you can view it there.

 

[Henri M.]

In most monarchies the very detailed scheme in HH, HSH, HRH, HIH etc. is no longer followed. Maybe it still exists in theory, but in practice there are mainly three important 'shifts' followed in almost all Houses:

Shift 1: separate reigning royal Houses from non-reigning royal Houses

Shift 2: separate the non-reigning royal Houses into former royal Houses and in mediatized Houses

Shift 3: order the Houses to date of accession of its Head

---

Shift 1: is clear enough.

Shift 2: for example the former reigning Houses of Germany, Russia, Greece, Italy, etc. do have preference above mediatized Houses like De Ligne, Thurn und Taxis, Fürstenberg, Esterházy von Galántha, Croÿ, etc.

Shift 3: in each shift, order to accession date

---

if bowing and curtsying is observed, then it is the lower ranked person showing respect to the higher ranked person. Or an equally ranked person (the Crown Princess of Norway) bows to another equally ranked person (the Duchess of Cornwall) because of her order of seniority, using the British Sovereign's length of reign.

 

[Madame Royale]

madame royal, i know that margrethe curtsied in the reburial of empress dagmar to the coffin. it is actually the photo of the month for denmark, you can view it there.

Thank you, carlota I find protocol really interesting for some unknown reason.

I'll see if I can find it. I think it was on her State Visit to Japan a few years ago.

Thank you, BeatrixFan

 

[le soleil]

curtseying or bowing in royals is not a problem with me...they are bound to be respected eventhough i'm not their people...respect is still very important!i even curtsey my sister becuase i respect her!

 

[Lord Sosnowitz]

I think too.

 

[le soleil]

you do lord sosnowitz?

 

[Australian]

i even curtsey my sister becuase i respect her!

You curtsey to your sister?

 

[Frothy]

I am sure you are wrong, BF, unless the Queen was at the time a Princess. She would never curtsey to anybody, least of all one of our war enemies. His very visit to the UK was hugely controversial and to curtsy to him - I think not.

My own rule is to curtsey to monarchies who rule legitimately by consent of their people, ie, curtsey to Jordan, do not to Saudi Arabia, etc.

Of course do not curtsey to pretenders like the Greeks - or anybody else who affects a royal title when their nation is a republic, eg, Serbia, Austria, France etc. The exception would be Princess Anne-Marie as she is still a Danish princess, but I would not be saying the words "Your Majesty".

Henri, it is considered that if you do not curtsey/bow to British royalty you are making a left-wing point. You don't have to, of course, but much has been made over here of Cherie Blair's refusal to curtsey to the Queen.

 

[Princess_K]

I guess that whether or not we bow/curtsy is pretty much how polite or well-mannered we are, no matter our origin.

It's not always to do with manners or politeness. Bowing and curtseying belong to an older society even more status- conscious than ours and persisting with such irrelevancies can make the monarchy itself look irreverent which is probably why they are no longer required. I would bow rather than curtsey (because curtseys are ridiculous) and only because I personally respect the Queen. I would do the same being introduced to any older person who deserved such honouring. But I wouldn't bow or curtsey to any of the younger royals. They aren't really better than us, you know!

 

[Her_Majesty]

I found an old picture from the 60s.
Then Crownprincess Sonja curtseying to Queen Elizabeth II.
Curtseying
(Knudsens)

 

[MargreteI]

It's not always to do with manners or politeness. Bowing and curtseying belong to an older society even more status- conscious than ours and persisting with such irrelevancies can make the monarchy itself look irreverent which is probably why they are no longer required. I would bow rather than curtsey (because curtseys are ridiculous) and only because I personally respect the Queen. I would do the same being introduced to any older person who deserved such honouring. But I wouldn't bow or curtsey to any of the younger royals. They aren't really better than us, you know!

I do not agree that it is ridiculous. It is just the feminine version of a bow.

Here we have to words for coursey "neje" and "knikse". Neje is deep and the type you see royal often do themself, which make you wonder if they practice this stuff in order to keep balance.

A kniks is not deep at all, but is just a slight bend of the knee with the right foot behind the left.

Most people use the kniks, when the meet the royal at an official arrangement. The neje is rare and can come of a bit theatrical, just like very deep bow can.

Also I dont see the kniks being outdated anytime soon in regards to royals.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

The Queen would not be curtseying to The Emperor of Japn, the last time she curtsied was at her father's funeral in 1952.

Also at the state opening of Parliament the peer's wives box all curtsied in unison as The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh nodded and the commentator on the BBC meantioned it.

 

[le soleil]

i wanted to see the pics of queen margarethe curtseying the coffin of dagmar

 

[Doña Alicia]

I am American and my mom grew up in the Caribbean while the island was still a British territory. Due to my love of royalty, I would without a doubt curtsey to any royal.

A side note: in the recent movie Marie Antoinette, I loved Kirsten Dunst's curtsey. She curtsied with one arm extended to the side and the other hand placed in front of her chest. If I can find a movie still, I will post it. That is exactly how I would curtsey. I also like how CP Mary curtsied to Queen Margrethe the week of the wedding by grasping both her hands and bowing deeply.

There is an excellent shot of her doing so if you go to yahoo videos and look up Marie Antoinette. The video labeled "The Introduction" show her meeting several officers and curtseying to all of them. Very elegant.

 

[Mandy]

i wanted to see the pics of queen margarethe curtseying the coffin of dagmar

Here is the picture chosen by the Danish committee for the September Picture of the Month Poll: Enjoy!

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/7317/septemberdenmarkvw7.jpg

 

[linneatherose]

Dont know if anyone mentioned this earlier, but I watched a film about the Swedish RF. There was a scene in which they met a sports team of some kind (don't speak Swedish)- and the team members didnt bow, even to the king. They just walked by and shook the RF's hands. I thought it was very informal. Is this usual??

 

[Australian]

I'm not sure, but I think shaking hands is also an alternative option instead of bowing. I'm not sure though.

 

[tara1983]

i was wondering to royals bow to other royals when thye visit?

 

[Sister Morphine]

i was wondering to royals bow to other royals when thye visit?

I've seen a photo of Princess Anne curtsying to someone, I think Queen Margrethe. Don't quote me on that, though. I'm fairly certain they do; just because they are royalty as well doesn't mean they don't have to observe protocol like we would.

 

[hofburg]

I, completely, agree.

 

[hofburg]

Royal Status

Curtsies have nothing to do with the so-called "Royal Birth", Just with 'Royal Status'.

Expanding on Cordonez's question regarding Prince Philip:

Assuming for argument that bowing/curtseying was not a voluntary choice - and recognizing that HRH The Duke of Edinburgh was born royal and Daniel Westling was born a commoner - if Victoria and Daniel married and she became queen, under these conditions of protocal how would he be treated? Would The Dukes of Brabant, The Princes of Asturias, The Princes of Orange, The Princes of Wales, Haakon & MM, Fred & Mary, et.al. bow and curtsey to him? Aside from the obvious style/graciousness/likeability differences, would there be any difference in how Daniel would be treated vs. Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Letizia, Camilla, etc.?

Also in previous posts it was mentioned that The Duke of Edinburgh told an elderly woman that it was not necessary to curtsey (presumably because of her advanced age). Would it be acceptable for Daniel (or any other non-royal marrying into a royal family) to have staff instruct people not to curtsey to them (even if they wanted to) because it made the new royal uncomfortable? Would we want them to make such a protocol statement?

Assuming most of us are non-royal - if you found yourself in the position of marrying into a royal family, would you be comfortable with/want other people to bow/curtsey to you?

Mapper

 

[hofburg]

They do. Monsieur Jacques Chirac (President of France) and Madame Bernadette Chirac - Chodron de Courcel are always very gallant. He uses to make a bow and she a révérence.

The fact that they do so, doesn't mean it's the norm. It's actually a mistake on their part, but albeit, a harmless one