Bowing and Curtseying

Pranter · Jul 14, 2016

Really has nothing to do with being outdated. It's not required at all. So it's up to the person to curtesy/bow or not.

LaRae

ROYAL NORWAY · Jul 14, 2016

COUNTESS said:
Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

She didn't have to do it.

And when it comes to being important or not: Theresa May is the head of the Her Majesty's government.

The Queen is the head of state of the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and 12 other countries and is the figurehead of 2 billion people, and an international icon. She have also reigned for 64 years and is 90.

I liked that the new PM curtseyed and both Cameron, Brown, Blair and Major alvais bowed to her.

And COUNTESS, even if you don't like constitutional monarchies, you can try to respect those who support it.

Roslyn · Jul 14, 2016

COUNTESS said:
Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

I agree, but only because I believe that women should only give the brief head bow that men give. To me a curtsey is a far more subservient act and I see no reason why women should show their respect in a different manner from that which is deemed acceptable for men. I would think it very strange if a conservative UK prime minister did not at least give that head bow to their monarch - especially this monarch - even today.

Denville · Jul 14, 2016

Countessmeout said:
Yet there are members of the royal family who curtsey low, Zara does, and they surely know what is proper. And I would think Thatcher would have been well instructed on how to act.

Yes, deep curtsey is not expected, a curtsey at all is not required now a days (traditional would be to be lower than the eyes, but traditions change). It is not a social faux paux, or showing a lack of understanding, to curtsey low. Simply old-fashioned.

well I've never Seen Zara curtsying but I have seen Diana do it briefly and it was a "short bob"... Possibly at a big formal occasion, like a royal wedding, it is meant ot be a deep one.. I seem to remember Anne going "very low" at her wedding.. but in "ordinary meetings" it should I believe be a short bob.

As for Mrs T, she was in some ways very respectful of the monarchy, the "deep curtsy" but in other ways she wasn't. So she may have been a bit overawed by being in the queen's presence and curtsied low, but she did rather put herself on a footing with the queen in many other ways, and acted like She was "the big cheese" rather than HM.

Pranter · Jul 14, 2016

There's a number of pics of Zara curtseying. Diana tended to have deep curtesy's.

LaRae

Countessmeout · Jul 14, 2016

Pranter · Jul 14, 2016

I think all the ballet help make Diana's so graceful.

LaRae

Ish · Jul 15, 2016

Roslyn said:
I agree, but only because I believe that women should only give the brief head bow that men give. To me a curtsey is a far more subservient act and I see no reason why women should show their respect in a different manner from that which is deemed acceptable for men. I would think it very strange if a conservative UK prime minister did not at least give that head bow to their monarch - especially this monarch - even today.

I'm not sure if I agree here. Just because there is a sex-based difference doesn't automatically mean that it's due to sexism.

Bowing was originally meant to be rather low. The torso bent, the head dropped, one leg was drawn back, an arm bent over the abdomen, the other extending out. The curtsey is actually a rather logical adaptation of the bow to accommodate skirts.

Men's bows evolved as relations between the upper/lower classes changed. Women's curtseys evolved differently to accommodate hooped skirts.

Personally, I'm not a fan of curtseys - not because they're somehow sexist (which i don't agree with), but because I don't think they work with modern fashion. Curtseys are designed for big, floor length, hoop skirts, not the shorter, tighter skirts more typically worn today.

Rustic Chivalry · Jul 18, 2016

Hi! Apologies if this has already been addressed upthread (I'm still making my way through), but I saw a possibly sketchy article about the Duchess of Cambridge having to curtsy to princesses of the blood when the Duke of Cambridge isn't around. However, I've only ever seen her curtsy to the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.

I understand royal precedence academically, and I saw the example upthread of a Crown Princess consort curtsying to a Crown princess of the blood, but as a matter of practicality, I'm not sure I've ever seen two British royals at the "RH" level bow or curtsy to each other (other than the aforementioned exception for Philip). Are there any examples of this that I've missed?

Countessmeout · Jul 18, 2016

HRH don't bow to each other. Kate has never bowed to her FIL and his wife, she certainly wouldn't bow to Beatrice. You bow out of respect to someone of a higher rank. That would be the queen or foreign sovereigns.

In private, when she is alone with the other woman, she is lower in precedence. But she wouldn't bow.

Darnius · Aug 13, 2016

Fijian rugby players kneel for Princess Anne as she awards gold medal at Rio Olympics | Daily Mail Online

Curryong · Aug 13, 2016

Charming and rather lovely.

Osipi · Aug 13, 2016

I think so too. Quite different yet very meaningful to show respect for a person in the manner that they did.

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · Aug 15, 2016

KatieLouise said:
I don't know if I've ever seen an American President bow to a monarch... if they do, does anyone have any pictures of this?

Yes Obama did bow to an Arab monarch. A very deep bow. He received lots of criticism as he didn't bow to HM Queen Elizabeth but did bow to an Arab ruler!

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · Aug 15, 2016

Countessmeout said:
HRH don't bow to each other. Kate has never bowed to her FIL and his wife, she certainly wouldn't bow to Beatrice. You bow out of respect to someone of a higher rank. That would be the queen or foreign sovereigns.

In private, when she is alone with the other woman, she is lower in precedence. But she wouldn't bow.

There are times when she has to bow to 'blood royals' like Eugenie or Beatrice but not when she is with William, as 'Princess William' she outranks the blood princesses but not when alone! ?

Moonmaiden23 · Aug 15, 2016

President Obama bowed low to the Emperor of Japan and received lots of criticism as well.

It wasn't just to an "Arab ruler" that he got it wrong.

I think the guy is/was just confused about protocol, same as his predecessors Bush and Reagan, the latter who famously referred to Diana Princess of Wales as "Princess David" or something during his toast at a State dinner.

And Nancy Reagan boasted to the media about how she did not curtsey to the Queen and would never do it, but the wife of then- Ambassador Annenberg did it and was roundly criticized.

These people cannot win.

Dman · Aug 15, 2016

Moonmaiden23 said:
President Obama bowed low to the Emperor of Japan and received lots of criticism as well.

It wasn't just to an "Arab ruler" that he got it wrong.

I think the guy is/was just confused about protocol, same as his predecessors Bush and Reagan, the latter who famously referred to Diana Princess of Wales as "Princess David" or something during his toast at a State dinner.

And Nancy Reagan boasted to the media about how she did not curtsey to the Queen and would never do it, but the wife of then- Ambassador Annenberg did it and was roundly criticized.

These people cannot win.

He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

AdmirerUS · Aug 15, 2016

Dman said:
He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

To me, I think this "the President does not bow" thing is very generational. My father was very strongly of the opinion that we Americans do not bow to others, now do we dip our flag. I know he had some long winded historical reason for this, which I do not remember.
I've always thought politeness and common sense should prevail. I understood the use of the embrace or snub in diplomatic circumstances.
And I find young Americans find face to face diplomatic nuance silly, though they understand the very delicate rules on online dissing and liking.

Moonmaiden23 · Aug 15, 2016

Dman said:
He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

Jacqueline Kennedy curtsied to HM and the Duke of Edinburgh AFTER the assassination of President Kennedy when she was considered a private citizen and no longer the wife of a Head of State. In fact when Prince Philip visited her privately right after JFK's funeral she curtsied to him and instructed 3 year old John Jr to bow. When the Chief of Protocol protested she told him " But Angie(Angier Biddle Duke)I am no longer the wife of a Head of State".

When she was First Lady John and Caroline were always instructed bow and curtsy to adults who visited the WH, Royal or not. It's just the way many upper class children were taught in those days.

But when she was First Lady? Nope. She didn't do it, ever.

HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G · Aug 15, 2016

COUNTESS said:
Outdated and unnecessary act. Ms. May is far more4 important to the government.

Technically Ms May isn't more important. She is very important and a great PM. However the Queen is the more powerful figure but delegates her power via prerogative.

Pranter · Aug 15, 2016

Dman said:
He's not confused to protocol. The President do not bow, but show respect by nodding to people. The Queen does this too when meeting people.

Don't forget, Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter curtseyed to The Queen. It's about how one goes about showing respect to people.

Confused or not he did bow at the waist to one of Arab rulers during his first presidency. There was a lot of carrying on about it.

LaRae

Dman · Aug 15, 2016

Pranter said:
Confused or not he did bow at the waist to one of Arab rulers during his first presidency. There was a lot of carrying on about it.

LaRae

The President conducts respectful nods, not bowing to other heads of state. Sometimes his nods are done a bit from the waste, but he never bow like royals would do.

The man knows his protocol, but he have lots of class and the media made too much about his nod to The Queen too.

I wonder if people made the same noise when Mrs. Kennedy and Caroline curtsied to The Queen?

VictoriaB · Aug 15, 2016

Dman said:
The President conducts respectful nods, not bowing to other heads of state. Sometimes his nods are done a bit from the waste, but he never bow like royals would do.

The man knows his protocol, but he have lots of class and the media made too much about his nod to The Queen too.

I wonder if people made the same noise when Mrs. Kennedy and Caroline curtsied to The Queen?

Mrs Kennedy did not bow/curtsey to the Queen when she was the wife of a head of state, only after the President was killed. Caroline was never the wife of a head of state and therefore there was no protocol to say that she she should not.

William Manchester, in a very detailed book about the assassination of President Kennedy and the days following detailed the discussion referred to above by (I think) Moonmaiden. He goes on to say that before the President and Mrs Kennedy visited the Queen in London there had been a lot of discussion about whether Mrs Kennedy should curtsey and the advice of protocol was that as the wife of a head of state she should not. Mrs Kennedy took this advice.

Countessmeout · Aug 15, 2016

Dman said:
The President conducts respectful nods, not bowing to other heads of state. Sometimes his nods are done a bit from the waste, but he never bow like royals would do.

The man knows his protocol, but he have lots of class and the media made too much about his nod to The Queen too.

I wonder if people made the same noise when Mrs. Kennedy and Caroline curtsied to The Queen?

Royal men rarely bow. They nod. :ermm:

By definition when you bend at the torso it is Bowing. A nod is a movement of head and neck. When you incline your torso as well, its a bow.

Bow to the emperor
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/2/22/Obama_bow.jpg/revision/20100116213039

Bow to Saudi
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ub508745d2.jpg

One to Chinese can be considered a nod as mainly head
http://16004-presscdn-0-50.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/obama-hu-bow.jpg

And look at the new PM doing a full curtsey. Back in Jackie O's days it was the custom. Women still do a curtsey so no she wouldn't get slack now.

Dman · Aug 16, 2016

VictoriaB said:
Mrs Kennedy did not bow/curtsey to the Queen when she was the wife of a head of state, only after the President was killed. Caroline was never the wife of a head of state and therefore there was no protocol to say that she she should not.

William Manchester, in a very detailed book about the assassination of President Kennedy and the days following detailed the discussion referred to above by (I think) Moonmaiden. He goes on to say that before the President and Mrs Kennedy visited the Queen in London there had been a lot of discussion about whether Mrs Kennedy should curtsey and the advice of protocol was that as the wife of a head of state she should not. Mrs Kennedy took this advice.

Really don't matter, the idea of an high profile American bowing or curtsying to a monarch or other leader still bother some people. I just think it's done out of respect though.

It's just like some people like to salute the President. If I met him or her, I would bow my head. Protocol is more relaxed now and it's all about the way you want to show your respect.

Moonmaiden23 · Aug 16, 2016

When Caroline Kennedy presented her credentials to to the Emperor and Empress of Japan as President Obama's ambassador a few years ago, not only did she not wear formal dress as is customary, she did not bow or curtsy which I found a little off-putting. All the other ambassadors to the Imperial Court always do so.

There is a beautiful picture of Sidney Poitier in full morning dress giving the most elegant bow I have ever seen when he was presented as Bill Clinton's ambassador in the 90's.

Caroline's manners are usually impeccable so not sure what happened at her presentation. Her "Mummy" and her very proper British nanny Maud Shaw must have been spinning in their graves. :ermm:

So no, I don't mind President Obama's faux pas(if that's what it was) with the Arab sheik.

At least he didn't high five the guy or pat him on the back!

Jacknch · Aug 16, 2016

Dman said:
Really don't matter, the idea of an high profile American bowing or curtsying to a monarch or other leader still bother some people. I just think it's done out of respect though.

It's just like some people like to salute the President. If I met him or her, I would bow my head. Protocol is more relaxed now and it's all about the way you want to show your respect.

I tend to agree. Each country has it's own customs and protocols, some formal and some not so formal. In the US, I am sure there are protocols when meeting the President - they may not include bowing or curtseying, but they still are protocols and should be respected in exactly the same way as one might respect the protocols in Japan.

Dman · Aug 16, 2016

Jacknch said:
I tend to agree. Each country has it's own customs and protocols, some formal and some not so formal. In the US, I am sure there are protocols when meeting the President - they may not include bowing or curtseying, but they still are protocols and should be respected in exactly the same way as one might respect the protocols in Japan.

He has tried to show some respect for other countries customs. He get some flack for it, but he do it in a way he feel is right.

Pranter · Aug 16, 2016

Dman said:
The President conducts respectful nods, not bowing to other heads of state. Sometimes his nods are done a bit from the waste, but he never bow like royals would do.

The man knows his protocol, but he have lots of class and the media made too much about his nod to The Queen too.

I wonder if people made the same noise when Mrs. Kennedy and Caroline curtsied to The Queen?

I've seen the pictures...he is bowing from the waist. It is not even near a nod...way way past that.

IIRC Jackie was no longer the wife of a president at the time this occured, she was a private citizen.

LaRae

Dman · Aug 18, 2016

Moving Image-
Senator Robert Kennedy bowing to Her Majesty The Queen:
Camelot

Here Bobby was paying respect to The Queen with a bow.

Pranter said:
I've seen the pictures...he is bowing from the waist. It is not even near a nod...way way past that.

IIRC Jackie was no longer the wife of a president at the time this occured, she was a private citizen.

LaRae

Nod or a bow, the President knows how to pay respect to monarchs. He's seen doing so here to the Emperor of Japan-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...d-for-treasonous-bow-to-Japanese-emperor.html

He's criticized but in reality it's just his smooth style, swagger and class he's demonstrating.

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