Bowing and Curtseying


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Rather not say? Well, you went as far as to name HM Queen Fabiola did you not? And that would mean this Infanta to be in her latter years, considering Baudouin succeeded to the Belgian throne in 1960. So I'd suspect one of Don Juan Carlos' sisters, but I'm certainly not one to press so that's fine.

Interesting, indeed.
 
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Exactly. A lovely woman Queen Fabiola and as she was Spanish she knew the Spanish royal family well and habit won over, she curtseyed and so did the Infanta. Good investigative faculties. :flowers:

Menarue
 
leonardinha said:
Well, in Italy and in Austria titles are forbidden as well, but it is not a faux pas to curtsey/bow to royalty. :flowers:
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Actually, Austria's position on titles is more strict than that of the United States. It is illegal to use a title in Austria, or even to use an adelspredikat ("von" or "de").

In the United States, it is forbidden for the government to grant titles of nobility, and it is expected that noblemen relinquish their titles in order to become American citizens. However, Americans are allowed to inherit titles without losing citizenship.

As for bowing/curtseying, it is not a faux pas for an American. It is considered polite to show knowledge of protocol, both foreign and domestic. The constitution has nothing to do with it.
 
Sigh. It has nothing to do with "manners"

KingJosh said:
First of all I think it's fine that Mrs. Annenberg curtsied to His Royal Highness as a sign of respect. That was what she was used to and so thats what she did.
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KingJosh said:
Second No matter where in the world they are U.S. or not Her Majesty is still Her Majesty the Queen, just as Prince Charles and his wife are still Their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess of Wales and should still be treated as such and if Bowing/curtsing is how to show them respect then thats what should be done, regardless of what country they are in. For example when i'm in uniform in the United States and a higher ranking officer from another country is walking past I still salute him becuase regardless of country he is still a higher rank then me, and it's the same with Royalty. The biggest problem in America is that most of us have lost our manners.
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On US soil, she is Her Majesty the Queen - but she is not sovereign! She does not rule. Good heavens. And if she does not rule here, then certainly her son and his current-day wife do not merit a courtsey or bow here. Fortunately, on other travels to the US with either of his wives, Charles received appropriate courtesies from knowledgable sources.

The point - and it cannot seem to be overemphasized - is that manners are not aligned to protocol, and courtesy is akin to but not synonymous with either. Attempting to turn protocol into a discussion of "manners" is disingenous, at best. At certain tables in this world, belching is considered "good manners." If someone here would like to express their good manners at a royal banquet by belching, please raise your hand.

And finally, the genuine upshot of my story was that Mrs. Annenberg, of all people, should have been versed and rehearsed within an inch of her life on this. There is no stricter protocol than the Court of St. James; of all people, she should have known better. Even Charles was embarassed, even if she didn't have the presence of mind to be so. Especially the extremely obsequious nature of her physical demeanor. Truly cringe-worthy.
 
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Army Regulation 600-25 Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy
Chapter 1-5 Paragraph e:
e. It is customary to salute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as such.
 
I have to say (as an American,) I feel that it's a matter of following the respect and courtesy of the country you're in. I wouldn't expect to have to bow to anyone in the United States simply because that isn't the way we do things. If I had to go to another country where such things are the norm, I would probably make more of an effort to follow their customs.

I can't say absolutely that I would curtsy however, simply because I have never had to do it and never learned. I would rather show respect in another way and avoid embarrassing myself and the royal at hand (who I think would probably understand) by botching a curtsy. (On the other hand, if I knew I was going to meet royalty, hehe, I would probably make the effort BEFOREHAND to learn how to curtsy and other traditions/protocols as well.)

If they don't understand, well, in my experience I probably wouldn't respect that person either. Not every situation is going to go as you want it and be ideal and you have to take some gestures of respect as they are intended and not as they are enacted traditionally.

There's a funny story I read while I was taking a graduate course on Saints and Heretics. A Jewish woman was spending too much time with her Rabbi in an attempt to learn as much about the Torah as she could. Her husband however was very unhappy about all the time she was spending away from home regardless of the fact that she was observing her faith, well, faithfully.

The husband vowed that he wouldn't accept his wife back until she had spit in the rabbi's face. The wife of course was horrified at the idea. The rabbi's job (as rabbi) was to somehow cause the reconciliation of the couple without the husband breaking his vow.

The rabbi one day then set up a scene where he pretended to have something in his eye. He then asked the woman to make his eye feel better by spitting in it. With some reluctance and persuasion, the woman did so and, while the rabbi seemed to have been put in an embarrassing situation by having someone spit in his face, his job was done and he did a good deed by letting her spit in his face, as the husband took his wife back since his vow was fulfilled.

The idea being, as long as its a gesture of respect, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Regardless of tradition, as long as the person isn't insulting you or meaning to show you disrespect by not bowing or curtsying, the manner of showing that respect shouldn't be so concrete that someone becomes insulted by not being shown that respect the same way EVERY single time.
 
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NotAPretender said:
On US soil, she is Her Majesty the Queen - but she is not sovereign! She does not rule. Good heavens. And if she does not rule here, then certainly her son and his current-day wife do not merit a courtsey or bow here. Fortunately, on other travels to the US with either of his wives, Charles received appropriate courtesies from knowledgable sources.

The point - and it cannot seem to be overemphasized - is that manners are not aligned to protocol, and courtesy is akin to but not synonymous with either. Attempting to turn protocol into a discussion of "manners" is disingenous, at best. At certain tables in this world, belching is considered "good manners." If someone here would like to express their good manners at a royal banquet by belching, please raise your hand.

And finally, the genuine upshot of my story was that Mrs. Annenberg, of all people, should have been versed and rehearsed within an inch of her life on this. There is no stricter protocol than the Court of St. James; of all people, she should have known better. Even Charles was embarassed, even if she didn't have the presence of mind to be so. Especially the extremely obsequious nature of her physical demeanor. Truly cringe-worthy.
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EVEN in Britain, it is NOT LAW that one must bow, etc. before the monarch. To do such is a show of respect and knowledge of the rules of polite culture. Anyone who does not wish to do so may feel free, but under scrutiny, it would appear as if one did not know the rules. It would be like using a butter knife to cut steak, and gabbing with one's mouth full in front of guests.
 
Prince of Chota said:
EVEN in Britain, it is NOT LAW that one must bow, etc. before the monarch. To do such is a show of respect and knowledge of the rules of polite culture. Anyone who does not wish to do so may feel free, but under scrutiny, it would appear as if one did not know the rules. It would be like using a butter knife to cut steak, and gabbing with one's mouth full in front of guests.
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\

Bingo. I've been trying to say this all along. You can refuse to curtsey or bow (as gender appropriate); that is your prerogative. But it marks you as uncouth, in the same way that showing up to a formal event in informal clothes would do. In every situation there are situationally-appropriate ways to behave; how one would act at a heavy metal concert versus an orchestral concert are very different things. It's inappropriate to crowd-surf at a Kronos Quartet performance in the same way that it's inappropriate to be out there with your appreciation at a Metallica concert.

Similarly, it's inappropriate to refuse to curtsey to Her Majesty (if you are a subject, especially) in the same way that it's inappropriate to refuse to salute if you are in the military.
 
I think of it like refusing to take your hat off in church, whether or not it is the denomination you believe in. It's rude...and how hard can it be to bend at the waist?!
 
And yet, the Palace still says otherwise both on their website and to just about anyone who asks and before most events. Someone should call the Queen's staff to tell them we've found out their dirty little plan! They're tricking people into being rude or uncouth! I'd be pretty mad if I found out later on that I'd been lied to (although I wouldn't have acted on it). I guess it's better to be judgmental and kind of rude yourself than to let others be rude, though!
 
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Princess Letizia curtseys to Queen Sofia last Saturday:
Hola!
 
Does anyone have any pictures of the new Princess Marie of Denmark doing her curtesy to Queen Margrethe ??
 
HRH Kerry said:
Aren't the royal families rather "close"? I always thought that CP Victoria and CP Haakon were good friends and well as cousins. It could be that MM has love and respect for Victoria. Maybe it was done for those reasons. When I see my best friend I kiss her cheek and hug her. May this curtsy equates the same.
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I do not think so. They do not curtsy to each other out of friendship. There are strict laws of protocol they follow. Queen Sofia had said once that the first time she did not have to curtsy to her mother in law, was when she (Sofia) became a Queen. The reason QE II declared the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra of Kent 2nd and 3rd in line was so they would not have to cursty to Camilla since after her marriage to P Charles she would be more senior than them.
Marie Chantal for example has to curtsy to Mary, Letizia,Maxima and Mette Marit since they are marred to Princes in line to a throne while she married into a non reigning family.
Prince Bertil of Sweden bowed and his bride curtsied to Silvia and Carl Gustav the day of their wedding.......Prince Bertil was in his 60's at the time and K CG was 30........
 
Odette said:
I do not think so. They do not curtsy to each other out of friendship. There are strict laws of protocol they follow. Queen Sofia had said once that the first time she did not have to curtsy to her mother in law, was when she (Sofia) became a Queen. The reason QE II declared the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra of Kent 2nd and 3rd in line was so they would not have to cursty to Camilla since after her marriage to P Charles she would be more senior than them.
Marie Chantal for example has to curtsy to Mary, Letizia,Maxima and Mette Marit since they are marred to Princes in line to a throne while she married into a non reigning family.
Prince Bertil of Sweden bowed and his bride curtsied to Silvia and Carl Gustav the day of their wedding.......Prince Bertil was in his 60's at the time and K CG was 30........
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I haven't seen the picture of Mette-Marit curtsying to Victoria. If she did, it was in error (similar to what happened between her and Camilla). They are both Crown Princesses, one by birth one by marriage, but equal in rank. Mette-Marit need not curtsy to Victoria or Camilla out of protocol.

As for Marie-Chantal, I haven't seen a photo of her curtsying to the other Crown Princesses either, not would she be expected to I imagine. I would be interested in official policy in this matter as I am quite curious how the other royal families view the position of the GRF in protocol matters, seeing how most of them are related to the GRF.

Prince Bertil and his bride made a reverence to their king and queen. Age has nothing to do with this.
 
Didn't Mary make a curtsy to Margrethe on her wedding day? Or am I imagining things?

The Spanish make very deep curtsies, compared with the rest of the royal world.
 
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kimebear said:
I haven't seen the picture of Mette-Marit curtsying to Victoria. If she did, it was in error (similar to what happened between her and Camilla). They are both Crown Princesses, one by birth one by marriage, but equal in rank. Mette-Marit need not curtsy to Victoria or Camilla out of protocol.

As for Marie-Chantal, I haven't seen a photo of her curtsying to the other Crown Princesses either, not would she be expected to I imagine. I would be interested in official policy in this matter as I am quite curious how the other royal families view the position of the GRF in protocol matters, seeing how most of them are related to the GRF.

Prince Bertil and his bride made a reverence to their king and queen. Age has nothing to do with this.
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It would take a while for me to find the wedding photos of Prince Bertil where he was bowing and his bride was almost on the floor in front of the Swedish Monarchs but I can get it if you wish. The reference in age was my effort to point out that protocol is protocol even when it comes to an uncle who devoted his life to the crown waiting for his nephew to come of age, marry and allow him to finally marry Mrs Lillian Craig.
With regard to Mette Marit, I tend to agree with others who posted that Victoria has more seniority since she was born royal and the other CPs are married into the position.
I have a photo where Princess Diana was curtsing to King Constantine of Greece, in the middle of a field no less.
If the newly minted princesses keep protocol, Marie Chantal is of a lower standing that those who are waiting to reign and should curtsy to them. I doubt we will see such pictures since their meetings are mostly family affairs and not State visits.
 
Thank you Lady Finn for the link. I swear Mette-Marit curtsies at the drop of a hat! No wonder she does them so well. She has plenty of practice!;) I genuinely believe this to be a case of either a mistake in protocol or a personal reverence, not a protocol one.

Protocol is protocol. A prince should bow to his king at any age. Being a Crown Princess by birth has no more seniority than being a Crown Princess by marriage in international protocol. Consorts are afforded the same courtesies as one born in the position. Mette-Marit just curtsies to everyone! She curtsied to Camilla, who also married into the position, even though Mette-Marit had been married longer!

I'm not suprised by hearing that Diana curtsied to King Constantine. The BRF are relatives of the GRF and still acknowlege their full titles as was evidenced by the scandal at the wedding of Charles and Diana. Other houses, such as Norway, do not recognized the HM and HRH styles of the GRF so it would be interesting to see if they bow and curtsy to the GRF members (except Mette-Marit of course, I'm sure she curtsies to them too!:lol:).

I have been looking around this afternoon and have yet to find a picture of Marie-Chantal curtsying to anyone that wasn't a monarch, but I'll keep looking. I would be suprised if she did.
 
kimebear said:
Thank you Lady Finn for the link. I swear Mette-Marit curtsies at the drop of a hat! No wonder she does them so well. She has plenty of practice!;) I genuinely believe this to be a case of either a mistake in protocol or a personal reverence, not a protocol one.

Protocol is protocol. A prince should bow to his king at any age. Being a Crown Princess by birth has no more seniority than being a Crown Princess by marriage in international protocol. Consorts are afforded the same courtesies as one born in the position. Mette-Marit just curtsies to everyone! She curtsied to Camilla, who also married into the position, even though Mette-Marit had been married longer!

I'm not suprised by hearing that Diana curtsied to King Constantine. The BRF are relatives of the GRF and still acknowlege their full titles as was evidenced by the scandal at the wedding of Charles and Diana. Other houses, such as Norway, do not recognized the HM and HRH styles of the GRF so it would be interesting to see if they bow and curtsy to the GRF members (except Mette-Marit of course, I'm sure she curtsies to them too!:lol:).

I have been looking around this afternoon and have yet to find a picture of Marie-Chantal curtsying to anyone that wasn't a monarch, but I'll keep looking. I would be suprised if she did.
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Which scandal are you referring to?
MC curtsied to the Royals outside the Church in London after her marriage but I doubt we will find any photos of her curtsying to anyone at any other time since all her get togethers are family affairs and there are no reporters around. I'd love to see any photos when you find them.
 
Hi!!!
Do You Think You Could Post The Photo Of Princess Diana Curtseying To King Constantine!!! Thank U!!
 
Odette said:
Which scandal are you referring to?
MC curtsied to the Royals outside the Church in London after her marriage but I doubt we will find any photos of her curtsying to anyone at any other time since all her get togethers are family affairs and there are no reporters around. I'd love to see any photos when you find them.
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When Charles and Diana were married, the Prime Minister of Greece refused to come to the wedding after he found out that BP had invited "HM King Constantine of the Hellenes" to the wedding. The PM took offense to the BRF referring to Constantine in this manner.
 
thanks a lot, Paty. :flowers:
I find it odd that Mette-Marit curtseying to Victoria :ermm:
 
HRH MAZA said:
Hi!!!
Do You Think You Could Post The Photo Of Princess Diana Curtseying To King Constantine!!! Thank U!!
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I promise to start looking for it. I am sure it is in one of the Point De Vue mags and I have to go through them. Can the person who posted the wedding photos of K Carl Gustav with Silvia Sommerlath from 1976 tell me how to move them from the mag to this site? I tried to google and look for the PDV but the google will not get me anywhere and PDV only has archives for the last 4 years. Please be patient and I promise I will get going asap.
 
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