Bowing and Curtseying


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Moonmaiden23 said:
So, technically Princess Charlene should curtsey to her sister in law HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover and to her niece HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover?

Even though, as the Consort, she outranks them??:sad:
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No. As a monarch's consort, she doesn't curtsy to anyone.


Edit: Except maybe for the Pope, which is an entirely different set of rules. I know that The Princess of Monaco is afforded Le privilège du blanc and she may choose to curtsy (kiss the ring) of the Pope as per her religion but I don't know if Charlene did.
 
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kimebear said:
No. As a monarch's consort, she doesn't curtsy to anyone.


Edit: Except maybe for the Pope, which is an entirely different set of rules. I know that The Princess of Monaco is afforded Le privilège du blanc and she may choose to curtsy (kiss the ring) of the Pope as per her religion but I don't know if Charlene did.
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She curtsied to Charles and Camilla when they were Prince of Wales/Duchess of Cornwall though. I assumed the same as you until I saw that.

 
I think Charlene forgot as a new Consort that she didn't need to curtsey as not only were they no longer the royal family of her entire life, but contemporaries as she herself was now a royal Consort.
 
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IMO Monaco always is a bit messy when it comes to protocol (or they just do so out of respect rather than strictly following protocol). Albert who is the monarch also has bowed to another monarch (but sometimes he didn't).

Actually in the description of the Youtube video HRHHermione posted the uploader also suggested that it's a break of protocol (in fact she always curtseys when she doesn't have to).

My understanding (not necessarily right) is that in modern European practice, monarchs/consort doesn't have to bow/curtsey to anyone, no matter HM, HRH or HSH, as long as you're the monarch/consort you bow/curtsey to no one. OTOH non-monarch royals also don't bow/curtsey to royal with equal/lower rank even if he/she is the monarch/consort.

As there aren't many videos of Monaco royals, I take Luxembourg as example.

For example in this old video of State Visit between Luxembourg and UK, no bow/curtsey between two monarch couples, OTOH also no curtsey from Princess Anne and Princess Margaret to the Grand Duke and Duchess.

And in newer video of State Visit between Luxembourg and the Netherlands, also no bow/curtsey from the Grand Duchy couple to the King and Queen.

Same in the Japan enthronement (at 2:00), no bow from both Grand Duke of Luxembourg and Prince of Monaco to the Emperor and Empress of Japan. (Interestingly after them King of Sweden did bow to the Emperor and Empress which I think it's simply a move of respect, I think sometimes bowing or curtseying could be just a personal preference to show respect and not always about protocol).
 
An Ard Ri said:
The Princess of Monaco

The Emperor of Japan
https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/785244885001861584/

Queen Elizabeth II
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/322640760774093969/
Click to expand...


Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice. As for QEII, I don't know why Charlene curtsied to her, but then again, I don't know why Charlene doesn't follow a lot of the royal protocol at the international events she attends either.
 
Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

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fandesacs2003 said:
Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

Sent from my SM-A426B using The Royals Community mobile app
Click to expand...

There is no any "rule" as a bow or a révérence are always optional and never an obligation.

Like saying "Your Majesty" is always optional as "Sir" or "Madame" is equally perfectly correct.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
There is no any "rule" as a bow or a révérence are always optional and never an obligation.

Like saying "Your Majesty" is always optional as "Sir" or "Madame" is equally perfectly correct.
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Thanks a lot. But royals follow a very precise etiquette related to the bows and curtseys.
Just that this etiquette is unclear for me, as far as paying respect to a deceased, it's concerned.

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kimebear said:
Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice. As for QEII, I don't know why Charlene curtsied to her, but then again, I don't know why Charlene doesn't follow a lot of the royal protocol at the international events she attends either.
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But the Tenno of Japan is not an emperor in the western sense. It is a translation of a unique title that has no equivalent in the west. Besides, a king of France was not lower in status than an emperor of the French. A king of Egypt was not lower in status than the emperors of Ethiopia or Iran.

Having “imperial” in a style does not denote some sort of seniority. In certain jurisdictions like the HRE (& its successor states) it did but not everywhere. Indeed in India the idea of empire was turned on its head when the British kingdom controlled as a colony the empire of India. Hence king-emperor & not emperor-king.
 
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fandesacs2003 said:
Does anyone have a clue about the rule of bowing or curtsey in front of the cuffin of a deceased Majesty / Ruler.
Watching the funeral of HLM King Konstantine of Greece, all his family bowed or Curtsied, but Queen Margrete no. CP Frederik and Joakim, yes.
If I'm not wrong I remember the funeral of late Prince Rainier, when the cuffin passed the Presidents and Kings bowed

Sent from my SM-A426B using The Royals Community mobile app
Click to expand...
Queen Margrethe most likely didn't curtsy because of the problems with her hips and knees. She curtsied for her husband, her mother and her father. In general curtseying or bowing infront of the coffin is a Scandinavian tradition that's still done by older traditionalists like me, but seems to be disappearing among most other people.
I was a bit surprised by the constant curtseying during the funeral services of Queen Elizabeth, but I guess the rule about curtseying the first time you meet a monarch during the day aren't observed during a funeral.
 
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fandesacs2003 said:
Thanks a lot. But royals follow a very precise etiquette related to the bows and curtseys.
Just that this etiquette is unclear for me, as far as paying respect to a deceased, it's concerned.

Sent from my SM-A426B using The Royals Community mobile app
Click to expand...

I have the idea that the royals themselves do not care that much about it. When you see a paasage then the one guest makes a bow, the other guest only gives a handshake.

One can even see when politicians are received that the one (usually of a more conservative signature) goes through the knees or makes a bow, the other (usually of a more progesssive signature) keeps it with a handshake.

Both are perfectly okay anyway.
 
Durham said:
Having “imperial” in a style does not denote some sort of seniority. In certain jurisdictions like the HRE (& its successor states) it did but not everywhere. Indeed in India the idea of empire was turned on its head when the British kingdom controlled as a colony the empire of India. Hence king-emperor & not emperor-king.
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Like you pointed out, it depends on the situation.

During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.

Then you have cases like the King of Bhutan bowing to Emperor Naruhito at his enthronement. A sign of respect from one monarch to the other, but obviously a personal choice as opposed to a rule.
 
You have to factor in religion too. The Emperor of Japan is also considered a religious figure in the Japanese religion, descending from the a Sun Goddess in Shinto Religion


Unfortunately, anything for the Western cultures that is not biblically based is typecasted as 'tribal religions' or mythology, which is a disrespectful view of other non-Christian cultures. In the USA we could have reverence for the Pope or for protestant religious leaders even when it's just a corner local church that was just formed a while ago by a TV preacher, but barely any respect for other cultures religions and customs.

I assume when the King of Butan shows respect to the Emperor of Japan is not just based on a political title but he takes into account the divinity of the Emperor too
 
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kimebear said:
During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.
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No, both Princess Astrid of Belgium and her husband Prince Lorenz of Belgium are officially titled as Royal Highness. They do not style themselves as Imperial anywhere.

I will post one court agenda entry as an example, but that is the case in all official and unofficial communications of the royal court and of the state authorities, in official and private correspondence, in commercial registers and identity documents.

Princess Astrid and her children never been styled as "Imperial" at any time after 1991, when the Belgian monarchy adopted gender-equal primogeniture.

https://www.monarchie.be/fr/agenda/fiancailles

Leurs Altesses Royales la Princesse Astrid et le Prince Lorenz ont la grande joie d’annoncer les fiançailles de Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Maria Laura avec Monsieur William Isvy. Le mariage aura lieu au second semestre 2022.​
 
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kimebear said:
Like you pointed out, it depends on the situation.

During the days of actual empires, an emperor ruled over other lands that may have had kings at the helm, which is why technically emperor is the superior title. There are no empires like that anymore, so the situation no longer applies, but imperial can still take precedence over royal in titles and precedence. Such as Princess Astrid of Belgium, who was born into a reigning royal family but married an Archduke from a deposed imperial family and is officially titled Her Imperial and Royal Highness, not Her Royal and Imperial Highness.

Then you have cases like the King of Bhutan bowing to Emperor Naruhito at his enthronement. A sign of respect from one monarch to the other, but obviously a personal choice as opposed to a rule.
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An interesting debate. The Duchess of Edinburgh was styled HR&IH in the Uk but HI&RH as Duchess of Coburg. Certainly no imperial highness has ever been given precedence over a royal one in the uk but others courts act differently. And anyway imperial/emperors sounds very foreign to British ears hence why George iii wisely rejected the title Emperor of the British Isles in 1801. He understood rightly that the ancient title of king was a far more prestigious one than aping the upstart Bonaparte & becoming an emperor.

Bowing is the normal form of greeting in Japan as far as I understand. The emperor bows himself doesn't he?

Asian customs & attitudes are very different from those in the west of course. I would be very surprised however if any Asian king (Thai, Saudi) believed that they were outranked by the Japanese emperor.
 
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:previous:

Belgium has evidently given precedence to the predicate Royal Highness over that of Imperial and Royal Highness, since Princess Astrid and her children's HI&RH was permanently replaced with HRH in 1991 when they acquired Belgian dynastic rights (see the above post).


kimebear said:
Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice.
Click to expand...

In the postwar period, the emperor's honorific of Heika has been translated as Majesty rather than Imperial Majesty.

https://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e-about/
 
Tatiana Maria said:
:previous:

Belgium has evidently given precedence to the predicate Royal Highness over that of Imperial and Royal Highness, since Princess Astrid and her children's HI&RH was permanently replaced with HRH in 1991 when they acquired Belgian dynastic rights (see the above post).
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Couldn't it be argued that they gave precedence over the Belgian titles and predicate (attached to a reigning house) over foreign titles and predicates of a non-reigning house?

I would argue that the distinction was not in royal is better than imperial and royal (I am aware that you are not making that claim but it could be construed as such) but between titles and predicates of a reigning vs non-reigning house. Had Lorenz been a member of a reigning house, I am not sure they would have made the same decision (unless they would have forced him to give up his rights and that of his children to the foreign throne).
 
kimebear said:
Technically, everyone should curtsy/bow to the Emperor of Japan as he is an Imperial Majesty and not just a Majesty, but this is not observed in practice. As for QEII, I don't know why Charlene curtsied to her, but then again, I don't know why Charlene doesn't follow a lot of the royal protocol at the international events she attends either.
Click to expand...


Technically the Emperor of Japan chooses to use the style of Majesty in English, rather than Imperial Majesty.


As for Princess Charlene, she is "only" an HSH, so, per your logic, she should curtsy not only to all HMs, but also to all HRHs.



In practice, that is not how it works as Charlene is the wife of a Head of State and diplomatic protocol in this case trumps royal protocol.
 
fandesacs2003 said:
I don't know if it has been posted.
3 nice curtseys from HRH Princess Haya to HM Queen Élisabeth.
Except the 1st pic, to the others she goes very deep down.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CoKFpTzuCoM/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=



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Yes, she was definitely a friend of Queen Elizabeth II probably though their shared love and of racing and owning their own racehorses, and I always used to love the photos we got of them together. They were, invariably at Ascot and Haya always paid her respects with such a look of warmth and affection which, going by HLM's face, she shared.

I think the first curtsey was a wardrobe problem with too slim a skirt, but such things happen. Actually, Haya is not very tall and when you see just how low she curtseys so she can look up at HLM is a show of true affection, as those sweet photos of her bending so low to allow her to come in for la bis under the Queen's hat brim. Actually, I think it the royal European double cheek bis as in one photo she is on the left cheek and the other is on the right. I can never remember where to start or if it's one or two . . . :ohmy:
 
fandesacs2003 said:
A very nice video from YouTube, related to the danish royal weddings of the last century's.



Have a look around min 3.20, when then Princess Anne-Marie from Denmark weds reigning King Konstantine of Greece. She walks down the aisle with her father, arriving to the groom she curtseys to him (normal, she is Royal Highness and he is Majesty).
Then side by side they turn in front of the invitees, she curtseys and he bows, they both do it twice. For AM is normal, but the King has not to do it.
Is it a sign of respect to his mother and his future parents in-law? As they are all Majesty?
Is it a sign of respect toward all the present Kings and Queens? As despite he is a reigning King, he is 24 years old and he should be the youngest ?
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Further to this video posted and the discussion why à reigning Monarch curtsey to his invitees, mystery is almost solved.

Here à video of the same sequence but from another angle.
The royal couple to be curtseys for Queen dowager Frederica as well as to the royal Danish couple, King and Queens but also their respective in laws.
Queen Frederica returned the curtsey, the Danes i don't know.
Enjoy.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoqhujIgLgO/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Enjoy.

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MsJulie said:
I think it’s time to stop with the bow and curtsy. There was a time in the past but if the royals want to modernize the thrones as they say, IMO I can see this ritual to be changed. I have on occasion see the Oder or higher ranking Royal trying to stop the others from doing a box or crusty…..maybe a nod of the head would be fine. JMOO. I know many people like tradition to carry but I can see a change.
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No one is who is non-royal is forced to bow or curtesy if they don’t want to. At this point it is optional
 
Would Princess Mary, Viscountess Lascelles curtsey to her mother-in-law, Florence Lascelles, Countess of Harewood?
 
When I was a kid I thought only commoners bowed and curtsied to royals; I didn’t think royals bowed and curtsied at all.
 
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