Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

No, I do not "ignore" them, it is just that none of them give any proof that AA was found to be mentally ill.

The proof is that as FS she was declared insane, and as AA had mental issues all her life. In the stories I posted yesterday it told how she had been put in a mental ward by her court appointed guardian and her husband kidnapped her and went on the lam because he was afraid she'd be sent to a mental institution. These are documented facts. You tell me she was only in 'for observation' and was 'only being sent to UVA med center' yet you can produce no proof and all the news stories contradict what you say.

So far, you have given me your own opinions. Not much more.

Please go back and read all my posts, and my site, as well as the threads I've started here. They're loaded with documentation, quotes and sources. If you don't acknowledge this, nothing I post now is going to matter, you will just say I didn't do it. But it's all there in print. How about going thru this thread and counting how many times each topic has already been addressed and rehashed? Maybe then you'll see what I mean by dog chasing his tail.

Proven? Where?

THE DNA OF COURSE, you know, that thing you disregard but can't prove why?

No, I do not write things off, I quote you the witnesses who knew what Ernie shelled out and to whom.

None of this means she was really AN. She wasn't, and sure he wanted to stop an imposter.

Who was out to get her?

According to you, Ernie, along with most of the real AN's family who fought her. Oh and don't forget the KGB, she thought they were after her!

Again, whom are you talking about?

Do you not think the relatives who fought her in court were trying to cheat her out of her inheritance? Honestly, is your memory that bad, are you playing with me, or, I hate to say it, are you blocked out all details of AA not being AN to the point that you really don't remember this stuff?

Not the DNA, but maybe the source.

The source was AA. It had her name on it. If you can't prove it was swapped, you have no case.

And I am not offering any since I do not want to speculate on this.

Like I said, your position is it 'must have happened' but you can't tell us any details, proof, or even theories. So basically, you have no case.

And in which post did I deny the bones found last year?

The very fact that you are here defending AA as being AN even though all the bodies are found and identified as the parents and ALL FIVE children via DNA testing proving ALL CLAIMANTS FALSE. If you still defend AA as being AN, this proves you do not accept her bones have been found.

 

[ChatNoir]

The proof is that as FS she was declared insane, and as AA had mental issues all her life.

Sorry, NO doctor declared her mentally insane.

In the stories I posted yesterday it told how she had been put in a mental ward by her court appointed guardian and her husband kidnapped her and went on the lam because he was afraid she'd be sent to a mental institution. These are documented facts. You tell me she was only in 'for observation' and was 'only being sent to UVA med center' yet you can produce no proof and all the news stories contradict what you say.

That her husband kidnapped her is not proof of any mental illness on her side. The doctors found her sane, and wanted to transfer her to UVA medical center. End of story.

Please go back and read all my posts, and my site, as well as the threads I've started here. They're loaded with documentation, quotes and sources. If you don't acknowledge this, nothing I post now is going to matter, you will just say I didn't do it. But it's all there in print. How about going thru this thread and counting how many times each topic has already been addressed and rehashed? Maybe then you'll see what I mean by dog chasing his tail.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. When I quote witnesses, you "don't believe them, they were in on it, it didn't happen." Or you give me hearsay from Vorres' book or hearsay from Prince Christopher.

THE DNA OF COURSE, you know, that thing you disregard but can't prove why?

I want to see the thing proven in court.

None of this means she was really AN. She wasn't, and sure he wanted to stop an imposter.

So why did he not stop anybody else who pretended to be a claimant? And why did he not start his campaign until she told about his visit to St. Petersburg? And why did he not dare go to Berlin and unmask her face to face?

According to you, Ernie, along with most of the real AN's family who fought her. Oh and don't forget the KGB, she thought they were after her!

Quite frankly, I don't think AA knew what the KGB was.

Do you not think the relatives who fought her in court were trying to cheat her out of her inheritance? Honestly, is your memory that bad, are you playing with me, or, I hate to say it, are you blocked out all details of AA not being AN to the point that you really don't remember this stuff?

According to Xenia Leeds, Anastasia was, according to the family, not fit to be formallly acknowledged and be given all that money. She would be likely to become the Empress of Russia, and they did not regard her as fit to rule. Of course, the money was only a rumor, nobody had confirmation from any bank in England that the fortune was indeed there.

The source was AA. It had her name on it. If you can't prove it was swapped, you have no case.

That will be a case for the courts.

The very fact that you are here defending AA as being AN even though all the bodies are found and identified as the parents and ALL FIVE children via DNA testing proving ALL CLAIMANTS FALSE. If you still defend AA as being AN, this proves you do not accept her bones have been found.

I think there are still a more questions to be answered in that case. And whether you believe it or not, I am not so concerned with who AA was, I am more concerned with getting the story straight.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I think there are still a more questions to be answered in that case. And whether you believe it or not, I am not so concerned with who AA was, I am more concerned with getting the story straight.

No, there are no more questions as to her being AN, she's not. The only questions left are how FS pulled it off and who all helped her. No, ! do not believe you don't care if AA is AN or not, and to you, the story is only 'straight' if it's telling AA's side. You disregard everything else, touting quotes in her favor and disregarding quotes against her, denying the DNA tests with no reason to do so other than your own wanton desire for AA to be AN, and disbelieving all five children have now been found. If you REALLY wanted to 'get the story straight' you'd agree with those who say we have our answer, AA is not AN, all the bodies are found, all claimant stories are over. But you do NOT want anything of the kind since it means AA is not AN.

 

[ChatNoir]

And that, my dear, is your opinion.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It's pretty obvious to all who follow your posts. Until you can give us a reason why the DNA tests are not accurate and the bones have not really been found, you really do have no case to continue to say AA is AN. And this is not an opinion but reality.

 

[ChatNoir]

It's pretty obvious to all who follow your posts. Until you can give us a reason why the DNA tests are not accurate and the bones have not really been found, you really do have no case to continue to say AA is AN. And this is not an opinion but reality.

I don't say that AA is AN. The Botkins, Grand Duke Andrew, Lili Dehn, Alexis Volkov, Maria Rasputin, Zinaida Tolstoy, Crown Princess Cecilie, Princess Märtha of Sweden, Xenia Leeds, Grand Duchess Olga and Pierre Gilliard were the ones who identified her as AN. The two last ones later recanted. And so did Maria Rasputin when AA did not come to her party. After having signed a sworn affidavit to the fact that AA was indeed AN.
And, oh yes, according to Xenia Leeds, Grand Duchess Xenia was fully aware of AA being AN.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I don't say that AA is AN.

You don't? In every single post?

Alexis Volkov,

You mean the guy who said 'the people who surround her are very suspect...make excuses for her mistakes under the pretext she was 'ill'..

Zinaida Tolstoy,

You mean the one who identified her as TATIANA, then switched when AA did? She obviously didn't know either girl well enough to judge.

Crown Princess Cecilie,

I doubt she ever saw the real AN very much if at all. She moved to Germany when AN was a toddler, her infrequent visits home did not focus on the little girls of the Tsar, and after 1914 she couldn't come to Russia at all anymore.

Princess Märtha of Sweden,

Never met the real AN.

And, oh yes, according to Xenia Leeds, Grand Duchess Xenia was fully aware of AA being AN.

But but but...she wasn't the real AN and Xenia did know she was fake. This statement is ridiculous.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/aabrother.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/fsbrotherlips.jpg

AA and FS's brother, Felix. Note the lips! Also the chin, eyebrows fading at the arch, and the ears!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

According to A Romanov Fantasy, pages 133-134, Faith Lavington wrote in her diary of AA's meeting with Wingender that she found AA's treatment of Doris (pointing and shrieking in German 'that must get out!') very suspicious, writing "one would hardly treat some unknown person in such a fashion."

Also in Welch's book, same page, it states one the Leuctenberg daughters, who had openly accused the detective of faking the photo, confessed to Lavington in private that when Knopf produced the picture of FS, "my heart sank, the likeness (to AA) was unmistakeable."

it sure was

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/Romanovs/franisan.jpg

oh for the record these are the pics used by Oxlee
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/Romanovs/aafsoxlee.jpg

FS and mugshot

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/Romanovs/aafsfaces3.jpg

real AN and AA- look at the harsh differences in the shape of the jaw, chin, nose and especially lips

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/Romanovs/aaanlips.jpg

 

[ChatNoir]

According to A Romanov Fantasy, pages 133-134, Faith Lavington wrote in her diary of AA's meeting with Wingender that she found AA's treatment of Doris (pointing and shrieking in German 'that must get out!') very suspicious, writing "one would hardly treat some unknown person in such a fashion."

Somehow I was waiting for this one. Welch, trying her best to convince her readers that AA was FS, used the word "shriek". The Duke of Leuchtenberg, who was the only witness to the confrontation, writes: "As the strange person seemed to her uncongenial and unsympathetic, she said, "Please, she must go out!"
(Actually, she said "it", not "she".) When this did not at once take place, she repeated her words, whereupon the Wingender woman very decidedly and without hesitation left the room." The Duke had informed AA that an old friend was coming to see her, and AA was very confused by seeing Wingender, and after that Knopf and Lucke, whose incomprehensible remarks about greetings from the Schanzkowski family she met with silent bewilderment.

Also in Welch's book, same page, it states one the Leuctenberg daughters, who had openly accused the detective of faking the photo, confessed to Lavington in private that when Knopf produced the picture of FS, "my heart sank, the likeness (to AA) was unmistakeable."

And as we know, the unauthenticated photo of FS was retouched heavily for use in Die Nachtausgabe in order to heighten the likeness with AA.

 

[ChatNoir]

You don't? In every single post?

Quote me one, will you.

You mean the guy who said 'the people who surround her are very suspect...make excuses for her mistakes under the pretext she was 'ill'..

What mistakes? And where is this info from?

You mean the one who identified her as TATIANA, then switched when AA did? She obviously didn't know either girl well enough to judge.

I mean the Zinaida Tolstoy who upon seeing "Tatiana" asked that Baroness von Buxhoeveden should come and identify her since she herself was not sure enough.

I doubt she ever saw the real AN very much if at all. She moved to Germany when AN was a toddler, her infrequent visits home did not focus on the little girls of the Tsar, and after 1914 she couldn't come to Russia at all anymore.

Correct, she only identified AA by her manners and her knowledge plus her likeness to the family.

Never met the real AN.

And your source for this is?

But but but...she wasn't the real AN and Xenia did know she was fake. This statement is ridiculous.

And still Xenia told Botkin that Grand Duchess Xenia does not think that AA is an impostor, she knows that she is Anastasia.

 

[ChatNoir]

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/aabrother.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/anniekit/fsbrotherlips.jpg

AA and FS's brother, Felix. Note the lips! Also the chin, eyebrows fading at the arch, and the ears!

Yes, very, very scientific. Especially the ears.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Quote me one, will you.

Every single post of yours defends that position.

What mistakes? And where is this info from?

Here we go again! I have posted this numerous times, do you really not remember, have you blocked it out, or are you trying to annoy me?

the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"

source: Klier and Mingay

I mean the Zinaida Tolstoy who upon seeing "Tatiana" asked that Baroness von Buxhoeveden should come and identify her since she herself was not sure enough.

Actually she blurted out 'she has the eyes of the Tsar' which means she really didn't know Tatiana, who had very dark eyes described by some as 'almost black.' When I suggested Gilliard set for Olga because he wasn't sure, you rejected it on the grounds that a person wouldn't send for someone unless they were sure. Now again you change your tune when it suits you. And if Zina 'wasn't sure' how is her endorsement even valuable? Tatiana and Anastasia did not favor at all, therefore she obviouisly didn't know either girl well enough to judge them. Bux did and she flatly denied her.

Correct, she only identified AA by her manners and her knowledge plus her likeness to the family.

As I was saying I was saying in the other post, GENERIC grand duchess, 'breeding', imagined family resemblance (yet she looked nothing like Marie F which is who she compared her to) So again we have a person who really doesn't know what she's talking about, and is not fit to use as an endorsement. See, this is why each one of your claims have to be taken apart individually. Too many people accept the 'all these people said it was her' claim, but in reality, it falls like a house of cards.

And your source for this is?

I've read numerous books on the family and have never seen any reference to them meeting any member of the Swedish royals, other than Marie Pavolvna who married into them. Even if Nicholas may have met them, the children did not. Can you produce a source that proves otherwise?

And still Xenia told Botkin that Grand Duchess Xenia does not think that AA is an impostor, she knows that she is Anastasia.

And still, this statement remains unsubstantiated and false.(that Xenia A. ever said that)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Somehow I was waiting for this one. Welch, trying her best to convince her readers that AA was FS, used the word "shriek". The Duke of Leuchtenberg, who was the only witness to the confrontation, writes: "As the strange person seemed to her uncongenial and unsympathetic, she said, "Please, she must go out!"

How about Massie's account (again!) Romanovs: The Final Chapter

page 180,

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.

And as we know, the unauthenticated photo of FS was retouched heavily for use in Die Nachtausgabe in order to heighten the likeness with AA.

Chat, you are forgetting something: you allege it was retouched to look like AA, yet it does NOT look like Anastasia, therefore AA does not look like Anastasia. There are several versions, I did not use the 'heavily retouched' one, all it has is a blob of paint in one spot. And speaking of altered pictures, I note you only use the painting/drawing of the FS pic which looks nothing like AA or AN instead of the photo I use? Why? Like young Miss Leuchtenberg, you may call it a fake publically, but I bet, like her, secretly your heart sinks because the likeness to AA is unmistakeable.

 

[ChatNoir]

How about Massie's account (again!) Romanovs: The Final Chapter

page 180,

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.

And what else do you expect the Nachtausgabe to write? This is the story told in the best National Enquirer style.

Chat, you are forgetting something: you allege it was retouched to look like AA, yet it does NOT look like Anastasia, therefore AA does not look like Anastasia.

I don't follow your logic here.

There are several versions, I did not use the 'heavily retouched' one, all it has is a blob of paint in one spot.

But Die Nachtausgabe did.

And speaking of altered pictures, I note you only use the painting/drawing of the FS pic which looks nothing like AA or AN instead of the photo I use? Why? Like young Miss Leuchtenberg, you may call it a fake publically, but I bet, like her, secretly your heart sinks because the likeness to AA is unmistakeable.

I have NEVER used that silly painting. The rest is your warped opinion.

 

[ChatNoir]

Every single post of yours defends that position.

I defend the real story, that's all.

Here we go again! I have posted this numerous times, do you really not remember, have you blocked it out, or are you trying to annoy me?

the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"

source: Klier and Mingay

And what is their source?They were not present.

Actually she blurted out 'she has the eyes of the Tsar' which means she really didn't know Tatiana, who had very dark eyes described by some as 'almost black.'

And by others as blue. As Olga said: If she had told me she was Tatiana, I would have believed it at once, because the likeness is great.

When I suggested Gilliard set for Olga because he wasn't sure, you rejected it on the grounds that a person wouldn't send for someone unless they were sure. Now again you change your tune when it suits you. And if Zina 'wasn't sure' how is her endorsement even valuable? Tatiana and Anastasia did not favor at all, therefore she obviouisly didn't know either girl well enough to judge them. Bux did and she flatly denied her.

Zinaida Tolstoy did not belong to the court and did not see AA every day for 13 years.

As I was saying I was saying in the other post, GENERIC grand duchess, 'breeding', imagined family resemblance (yet she looked nothing like Marie F which is who she compared her to) So again we have a person who really doesn't know what she's talking about, and is not fit to use as an endorsement. See, this is why each one of your claims have to be taken apart individually. Too many people accept the 'all these people said it was her' claim, but in reality, it falls like a house of cards.

Not so generic, Cecilie recognized her family likeness. And her knowlede of Ernie's trip to Russia convinced her that AA had inside knowledge that an impostor would not have had.

I've read numerous books on the family and have never seen any reference to them meeting any member of the Swedish royals, other than Marie Pavolvna who married into them. Even if Nicholas may have met them, the children did not. Can you produce a source that proves otherwise?

No, I have never seen any stories about AA and Märhta meeting. She may just have recognized her from photos.

And still, this statement remains unsubstantiated and false.(that Xenia A. ever said that)

False in your opinion only. Gleb Botkin published it.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

[/b][/color][/i]

And what else do you expect the Nachtausgabe to write? This is the story told in the best National Enquirer style.

Are you accusing them of falsifying information?

I don't follow your logic here.

Okay, one more time- you claim the picture of FS was 'retouched' to look like AA. This means you apparently admit it looks like AA. However, it does NOT look like AN, which means that AA does not look like AN. Right?

I have NEVER used that silly painting. The rest is your warped opinion.

Here is a post you made on AP on Aug. 1, 2007, using 'that silly painting' because you don't dare use the photo which is a dead ringer for AA. This is only one of many times you have used it on several forums. It's also on my forum posted by you numerous times.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=9685.75

Reply #82
« on: August 01, 2007, 06:53:03 AM »
ChatNoir
Guest
Re: AN/AA/FS photographic comparison and discussion
Again, listen to Annie and Dmitri, those two girls got it right all along. AA and FS look like twins. Especially after Gilliard's, as Annie says, outlining of the features of FS.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/AAandFS.jpg

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I defend the real story, that's all.

If you defend the 'real' story, you'd defend the DNA results.

And what is their source?They were not present.

I do not have their book, I had to borrow it on an interlibrary loan and it's gone back. My library doesn't have it. If you have access to it, check the footnotes yourself.

And by others as blue. As Olga said: If she had told me she was Tatiana, I would have believed it at once, because the likeness is great.

No one ever said Tatiana had blue eyes. Olga and Bux both thought AA resembled Tatiana from across the room, but on closer examination, the differences were more apparent. Remember that Clara P. said AA looked like Tatiana, not Anastasia. It was Tatiana she favored most, not AN, who looked nothing like Tatiana.

Zinaida Tolstoy did not belong to the court and did not see AA every day for 13 years.

So you're admitting she didn't know the girls well enough to be a judge one way or the other? That's the truth, she didn't. So stop listing her among those who accepted AA as AN since she wouldn't have known.

Not so generic, Cecilie recognized her family likeness. And her knowlede of Ernie's trip to Russia convinced her that AA had inside knowledge that an impostor would not have had.

But she said it was, in a picture, a resemblance to Marie F., whom the real AN looked nothing like! And Ernie's trip has never been proven to have happened, and the rumors were out there in books. So this really is a tosser as well.

No, I have never seen any stories about AA and Märhta meeting. She may just have recognized her from photos.

You are using a double standard again. When members of the royal family reject her from pictures, you say it doesn't count if they don't meet her in person. So apparently if they accept her, it does count?

False in your opinion only. Gleb Botkin published it.

Gleb's books on the Romanovs are full of unproveable claims. He was a creative writer of fiction, such as "The Baron's Fancy", a story close to AA's. This is not at all proof that Xenia knew AA was AN, in fact, her own children and grandchildren have said many times she did NOT accept AA.

 

[tsarskoe]

Regarding the issue of mental illness.
As a social worker who works with individuals who suffer from mental illnesses I thought I should clear up some misperceptions of "insanity". Insanity is no longer a term used by mental health professionals (at least here in the US) and only is used in court proceedings -when someone is declared as having suffered from"temporary insanity" which I believe is exceedingly rare nowadays.

In psychiatry today there are two different Axis when speaking about mental illness. The first Axis includes Depression, Anxiety, Bipolar, etc. These are usually attributed to a "chemical imbalance" which often can be treated with medications and can be caused by genetics and/or situations.

The Second Axis includes personality disorders such as Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality d/o, Schizoid Personality d/o, etc. These are a relatively recent understandings and are often attributed to environment and nurturing (or lack thereof) of the patient during their infancy/childhood.

Today when a lay person refers to an individual as "insane" they are meaning that they suffer from some form of psychosis. A variety of symptoms make up the definition of psychosis, the main symptoms are as follows:
Auditory and or Visual Hallucinations:which cause the individual to either see or hear things that others around them do not.
Paranoia: Fear that others (Sometime specific, sometimes not) are talking about them, conspiring against them, are planning to kill them.
Delusions: Belief in facts, history or a set of current circumstances are true when there is no logical explanation for theses beliefs and when evidence to prove such beliefs are false the belief remains unchanged. (Note this definition does not usually include religious beliefs or other beliefs held for personal or sentimental reasons even though such beliefs are not always logical or widely held)

Many different disorders can cause psychosis such as Schizophrenia, or can be secondary to another disorder such as Depression, Bipolar (Manic/Depression) and I believe the new forthcoming DSM V is going to included a psychosis secondary to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

With regards to the frequently posted statement that Franziska Schanzkowska was found "insane", this actually tells us very little about her or her mental condition. This diagnosis was given to Franziska in the early 1900's with psychiatry in its infancy. Without further information to explain the rationale and the meaning of it the diagnosis is utterly meaningless. It could have simply meant that she was depressed, or anxiety ridden or suffering from "shell shock" aka PTSD from the accidental death of her foreman and or the earlier and sudden death of her boyfriend/fiance. I never heard testimony from anyone, especially not the Schanzkowski family or the Windgenders that Franziska was ever delusional or reported having hallucinations.

Certainly being familiar with AA I would say that she did suffer from mental illness, probable Depression, PTSD as well as having traits of (if not the full disorder) some personality disorders especially given her tendency to be difficult to get along with even the most faithful of supporters, her grandiosity, etc.

Yet when comparing the mental illnesses of Franziska and AA we must know more about what Franziska's symptoms were otherwise we are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Today when a lay person refers to an individual as "insane" they are meaning that they suffer from some form of psychosis. A variety of symptoms make up the definition of psychosis, the main symptoms are as follows:

Paranoia: Fear that others (Sometime specific, sometimes not) are talking about them, conspiring against them, are planning to kill them.

That is AA.

Delusions:

Belief in facts, history or a set of current circumstances are true when there is no logical explanation for theses beliefs and when evidence to prove such beliefs are false the belief remains unchanged. (Note this definition does not included religious beliefs or other beliefs held for personal or sentimental reasons)

This sounds like AA as well as some of her supporters.

Certainly being familiar with AA I would say that she did suffer from mental illness, probable Depression, PTSD as well as having traits of (if not the full disorder) some personality disorders especially given her tendency to be difficult to get along with even the most faithful of supporters, her grandiosity, etc.

Thanks for your knowledgeable insight.

 

[ChatNoir]

Thank you, Tsarskoe, you put it in a very nice perspective. Just let me add one thing: Grandiosity is something one cannot accuse AA of.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Again, listen to Annie and Dmitri, those two girls got it right all along. AA and FS look like twins. Especially after Gilliard's, as Annie says, outlining of the features of FS.

Dmitri is not even a girl, he's a guy!

Here is a post you made on AP on Aug. 1, 2007, using 'that silly painting' because you don't dare use the photo which is a dead ringer for AA. This is only one of many times you have used it on several forums. It's also on my forum posted by you numerous times.

That photo of FS does resemble AA a lot. The painting is not as important as the photograph.

 

[ChatNoir]

Are you accusing them of falsifying information?

I think embellishing the truth is the right expression here.

Okay, one more time- you claim the picture of FS was 'retouched' to look like AA. This means you apparently admit it looks like AA. However, it does NOT look like AN, which means that AA does not look like AN. Right?
Here is a post you made on AP on Aug. 1, 2007, using 'that silly painting' because you don't dare use the photo which is a dead ringer for AA. This is only one of many times you have used it on several forums. It's also on my forum posted by you numerous times.

This is not a "silly painting", this is the retouched photo of FS that the Nachtausgabe used. The same photo that made miss Leuchtenberg's heart sink.......

 

[ChatNoir]

That is AA.

Absolutely. And it fits with her story.

 

[ChatNoir]

Just a little tidbit of history:
From the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten re. an interview with the author of Princess Märhta's biography:

" men for meg var det en opplevelse å treffe et menneske som kunne fortelle om hvordan han lekte med tsarens yngste datter, Anastasia, som barn. "

"but for me it was an experience to meet a person (Princess Märtha's brother) who could tell about how he played with the Tsar's youngest daughter, Anastasia, as a child."

So it seems that Princess Märtha did indeed meet Anastasia.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I think embellishing the truth is the right expression here.

I think it woud be embellishing to change the story to say she wasn't upset to see Doris.

This is not a "silly painting", this is the retouched photo of FS that the Nachtausgabe used. The same photo that made miss Leuchtenberg's heart sink.......

Nope, the picture you use is a painting, or drawing, and it looks nothing like AA, FS or AN. The picture that made the girl's heart sink was the photo.

Here's the difference:

Left: real photo, center: drawing or painting, right: retouch used by Gilliard

http://peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA_files/image008.jpg

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Absolutely. And it fits with her story.

But she wasn't paranoid from being afraid of Bolsheviks, she was paranoid of getting caught in her charade pretending to be AN!

And meeting someone once as a little kid does not make you an accurate judge.

 

[ChatNoir]

I think it woud be embellishing to change the story to say she wasn't upset to see Doris.

According to the Duke of Leuchtenberg, it was very clear that the two ladies had never seen each other before.

Nope, the picture you use is a painting, or drawing, and it looks nothing like AA, FS or AN. The picture that made the girl's heart sink was the photo.

Sorry, this was the retouched photo that the Nachtausgabe used, with earrings and the whole nine yards. There is also another one in existence that Gilliard used for his La Fausse Anastasia, not quite as elaborately touched up.

 

[ChatNoir]

But she wasn't paranoid from being afraid of Bolsheviks, she was paranoid of getting caught in her charade pretending to be AN!

And you know this from where? Even Gerda Kleist moaned about how afraid she was of being caught by the Bolsheviks and brought back to Russia. Walking along the streets of Berlin, she would see a suspicious character and say: Schon wieder ein Bolshevist!

And meeting someone once as a little kid does not make you an accurate judge.

Well, she said what she said. And she clearly saw that she was not Tatiana.

 

[ChatNoir]

If you defend the 'real' story, you'd defend the DNA results.

What I am trying to tell you, is that I am trying to follow the story from February 1920 without mixing it with allegations and assumptions and my own opinions.

I do not have their book, I had to borrow it on an interlibrary loan and it's gone back. My library doesn't have it. If you have access to it, check the footnotes yourself.

Unfortunately, there are no footnotes. AA spoke to Volkov in German, and Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann translated. How would Volkov know if she made any mistakes or that Frau Rathlef Keilmann finished her answers if he did not understand the language they were delivered in? The truth is, Volkov was crying as he left AA, but he said to Frau Rathlef Keilmann: What if I now say that she is the Grand Duchess, and they say it is not? Where will I be then?

No one ever said Tatiana had blue eyes. Olga and Bux both thought AA resembled Tatiana from across the room, but on closer examination, the differences were more apparent. Remember that Clara P. said AA looked like Tatiana, not Anastasia. It was Tatiana she favored most, not AN, who looked nothing like Tatiana.

I think it was Lili Dehn who described Tatiana's eyes as blue. Anyway, as for the likeness with Tatiana, you have to remember that AA was now much older and much thinner that may have brought out the sisterly likeness. You can see in this photo (pardon the terrible quality) how she looks like Olga.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/OlgaandAnna.jpg

So you're admitting she didn't know the girls well enough to be a judge one way or the other? That's the truth, she didn't. So stop listing her among those who accepted AA as AN since she wouldn't have known.

Well, we now know that they knew each other personally, but not when they last saw each other.

But she said it was, in a picture, a resemblance to Marie F., whom the real AN looked nothing like! And Ernie's trip has never been proven to have happened, and the rumors were out there in books. So this really is a tosser as well.

What Cecilie said, was this: I visited AA twice more after this, spending quite a long time with her on each of the three occasions. Today I am convinced she is the Tsar's youngest daughter: not only because, now she is an elderly woman, I can sometimes detect her mother's features in hers; but even more because the kinship is betrayed in her manner of behaviour and hospitality, in all the bonds of intimate knowledge and association which link people of the same origins together.
As for Ernie's trip to St. Petersburg, we have several witnesses who either helped him, met him en route, or saw him in person in Tsarskoe Selo.

You are using a double standard again. When members of the royal family reject her from pictures, you say it doesn't count if they don't meet her in person. So apparently if they accept her, it does count?

And what members of the Royal Family are we talking about?

Gleb's books on the Romanovs are full of unproveable claims. He was a creative writer of fiction, such as "The Baron's Fancy", a story close to AA's. This is not at all proof that Xenia knew AA was AN, in fact, her own children and grandchildren have said many times she did NOT accept AA.

And how would you know, have you read his books?
Grand Duchess Xenia did not acknowledge AA, but to Xenia Leeds she allegedly said that she knew her to not be an impostor.