Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

They are liars, but so was AA.

If you read up on this, you will find that doctors, friends and some foes all said: She has the highest regard for truth, she never contradicted herself, and she never told a lie.

 

[ChatNoir]

I never said in court, but he did say it!

Then you rather be prepared to back this up with Kostritki's written statement! And you will not find any.

So once again, it all comes down to whom you choose to believe. However, now that DNA has proven AA a fake, we know who was telling the truth and who was right and wrong.

I chose to believe those who have not been caught in lies.

Only those who refuse to accept reality. I accept it, I want to know your reasons for denying it (other than just your desire for AA to be AN)

So why are you fighting so hard to convince me?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Then you rather be prepared to back this up with Kostritki's written statement! And you will not find any.

If it's not still around, it's because no AA supporting writer ever chose to use it in one of their books. Maybe Berenberg-Gossler had it.

I chose to believe those who have not been caught in lies.

AA and all of her supporters were caught in the biggest lie of all once those DNA tests came in!

So why are you fighting so hard to convince me?

I'm not, I just can't let you mislead anyone who is just learning about the topic and coming here for knowledge. The truth needs to be told to counteract the fantasy. As long as you go on I must as well.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If you read up on this, you will find that doctors, friends and some foes all said: She has the highest regard for truth, she never contradicted herself, and she never told a lie.

She LIVED a lie by presenting, and allowing herself to be presented, as someone she wasn't. Probably the reason she never came out and said "I AM ANASTASIA" is because she KNEW she wasn't and didn't want to be in trouble for fraud if she were ever officially exposed. Maybe she thought that, by technicality, she wasn't officially 'lying' if she never came out and said it, but she still let the game continue and played right along and never tried to deny it or stop it. She also wouldn't take the witness stand and have to worry about possible perjury. She was living a lie, and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing at least for the first 20 years. At some point, she probably crossed the line into total insanity and believed her own charade. After all, since as FS she was declared insane and as AA had many spells of mental instability, it's no suprise she finally went off the deep end.

 

[COUNTESS]

"She never told a lie" is ridiculous. Even the best of us, George Washington, included have told some little lies here and there. When you make draconion satatements such as these, it makes it less plausible. Never trust anyone who says the "Never", did this or that.

 

[ChatNoir]

She LIVED a lie by presenting, and allowing herself to be presented, as someone she wasn't. Probably the reason she never came out and said "I AM ANASTASIA" is because she KNEW she wasn't and didn't want to be in trouble for fraud if she were ever officially exposed.

You should know by now that she came out and said just that in the fall of 1921 to Thea Malinovsky. But she never wanted any publicity, even positive.

Maybe she thought that, by technicality, she wasn't officially 'lying' if she never came out and said it, but she still let the game continue and played right along and never tried to deny it or stop it. She also wouldn't take the witness stand and have to worry about possible perjury.

I think perjury was the least of her worries....

She was living a lie, and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing at least for the first 20 years.

Tell that to Botkin, and you know exactly what he would tell you!

At some point, she probably crossed the line into total insanity and believed her own charade. After all, since as FS she was declared insane and as AA had many spells of mental instability, it's no suprise she finally went off the deep end.

She never went off any end, no doctor ever declared her insane. Never. Not even in her last days.
Infuriating, isn't it.

 

[ChatNoir]

"She never told a lie" is ridiculous. Even the best of us, George Washington, included have told some little lies here and there. When you make draconion satatements such as these, it makes it less plausible. Never trust anyone who says the "Never", did this or that.

I am not really making a statement, I am simply reporting the words of those who were there when it happened. Here is a snippet from Dr. Theodore Eitel's report on the patient:

All the information which the patient furnished to me, or to those immediately round her, I have repeatedly verified during the course of the months, and I can assert that on no occasion did the patient make a contradictory statement. Her accounts and descriptions of her experiences are now invariably voluntary, deliberate and considered, and are given without acffectation or exaggeration.
It must, therefore, be presumed that the patieent did actually undergo the experiences she describes. It would be impossible for anyone so ill physically, but who presents no psychopathic features, to sustain a false role without once deviating therefrom.
In Mrs. Chaikovski one recognizes a personality of exceptionally high ethical qualities. Her high personal qualities, her noble nature, her pronounced truthfulness in small as well as in large matters, the distinguished detachment of her personality - all these features, which she displayed to everyone right from the outset, force one to the conclusion that Mrs. Chaikovski from her earliest childhood has been brought up in the highest circles.

 

[ChatNoir]

If it's not still around, it's because no AA supporting writer ever chose to use it in one of their books. Maybe Berenberg-Gossler had it.

Give it a rest. NOBODY has it.

AA and all of her supporters were caught in the biggest lie of all once those DNA tests came in!

And in spite of the DNA tests, whe still have no legal decision.

I'm not, I just can't let you mislead anyone who is just learning about the topic and coming here for knowledge. The truth needs to be told to counteract the fantasy. As long as you go on I must as well.

In other words, you feel that the rest of the world is not intelligent enough to study this case and make up their own opinion. What a noble cause.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If they were really intelligent, they'd accept the dna results and understand that AA is not AN and that's the end of it, and be too intelligent to fall for conspiracy theories.

 

[Penny Royalty]

You guys can be so funny. You don't stop arguing and it's yet impressive. I admire your plight and fight because it really shows that the both of you have a head on your shoulders. The care, the dedication, the overwhelming respect and regard for each other's opinions to inform us and yourselves about the matters pertaining to such a phenomena, simply impresses and interests me as a reader. Keep the honor of the Russian Royals lit with your advocations and enjoy in presenting if only to each other what it is you see. I enjoy the debacle and is touching to see such revelry for us all to see. Keep on with your long strife. It is good to me. It is good to see.

 

[tsarskoe]

With regards to languages AA spoke and/or understood. Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann who nursed/tended AA during her bout with tuberculosis wrote about Anna while in convalescence in Lugano ca. 1926: "'She's now reading English quite nicely,'...'and practices English diction everyday. ... Moreover, I am speaking only Russian with her.'...'If I push her far enough she answers me in Russian, 'Ya ne mogu' ('I cannot'), or 'Ya ne hotschu')" (Kurth, 131)

This is before AA went to live with the Leuchtenbergs. Thus, Faith Lavington's (Who met AA while she was living at Castle Seeon with the Leuchtenbergs) assertion that after initiating English lessons with AA she discovered AA already knew English is understandable.

I do believe that even earlier in the 1920's AA could understand Russian, how well is debatable. It is my opinion that this period of time with Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann strengthened her understanding of the language, if not its spoken form which even after this period of time was rare and random for AA to speak (Which was usually only in the form of a few sentences at a time).

 

[ChatNoir]

What we know about her Russian is that she spoke it at Dalldorf. According to the doctor who treated her at the Kleist's, she spoke Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unessential things.
From Dr. Rudnev's report, we know that she "raved in English" under anesthesia, but could remember nothing when she came to. When Bella Cohen addressed her in English at the Mommsen clinic, she answered back in English. And Conrad Wahl, the nephew of Inspector Grünberg, remembered "die kranke Dame" as someone who "spoke more English than German".
In Oberstdorf, the doctors noted that she would not speak Russian, but followed every conversationin Russian, answered in German, and corrected Russian words if someone mispronounced them.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

You should know by now that she came out and said just that in the fall of 1921 to Thea Malinovsky. But she never wanted any publicity, even positive.

Keep repeating this until you believe it. I never will. AA never had any idea of pretending to be a GD until Clara gave her the idea. The nurse story was set up later to try to help her cause, however, getting the date wrong only discredits it all.

Tell that to Botkin, and you know exactly what he would tell you!

You don't want to know what I would like to tell Botkin.

She never went off any end, no doctor ever declared her insane. Never. Not even in her last days.

Then why did her husband have to kidnap her to keep her from being committed?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The more I read this, the more a game of he said she said it all is. Who knows who was lying, mistaken, pretending, or just stupid? We'll never know, but because there are so many conflicting comments, it all comes down to whom you believe. However, since we do have the DNA, we do know AA wasn't AN, so that helps figure out who was right and wrong for sure. Who was embellishing will likely never be known but it certainly happened.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

This is an endless argument that never stops. It's really sad. It's very obvious that Anastasia wasn't AA. This is something that has already been proven wrong for more than 15 years. AA is a fraud !

 

[ChatNoir]

Keep repeating this until you believe it. I never will. AA never had any idea of pretending to be a GD until Clara gave her the idea. The nurse story was set up later to try to help her cause, however, getting the date wrong only discredits it all.

I still don't think you have understood the point here:
It was not possible for Thea Malinovski to tell ANYTHING to AA in the fall of 1922 since AA left Dalldorf in May of 1922. The Nachtausgabe was the paper whose editor was paid twenty (or twentyfive) thousand Marks by Ernst von Hesse for the "unmasking" of AA. Therefore they changed the date of Thea Malinovski's story either wilfully or by mistake. But as you can see, any other date than fall 1921 would not be possible. I know you are desperate to discredit this story, but both Thea Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz (who threatened to sue the paper) both testified that AA came out as Grand Duchess Anastasia in fall of 1921. Whether you believe it or not, is of no importance.

You don't want to know what I would like to tell Botkin.

Yes, I can imagine. He turns your whole theory upside down, doesn't he. And he was a very intimate friend of Anastasia.

Then why did her husband have to kidnap her to keep her from being committed?

She was not being "committed", only transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.

 

[ChatNoir]

So far, I believe the people who have not been caught in telling direct lies. If you can catch them, I will definitely reassess their reliability.

 

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Menarue
Exactly. Thank you Anna was Franzisca, those two articles are very interesting and give a clear account of the case from people who really knew.

What do you mean by "people who really knew?" Berenberg Gossler was the lawyer for the opposition and only saw AA for a few minutes. His job was to discredit her, no matter what.
Prince Michael Romanov never even met AA. Please explain.

 

[COUNTESS]

Who cares who knew her or didn't. DNA is the judge. Either she is a Romanov or not. She is not. She could have deported herself as the Queen of Sheba, but she is not a Romanov. But those who like the myth.....

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I still don't think you have understood the point here:
It was not possible for Thea Malinovski to tell ANYTHING to AA in the fall of 1922 since AA left Dalldorf in May of 1922.

YOU are missing the point, THIS INCIDENT NEVER OCCURED! Think- look how much hullabaloo came out after she made her claim. Expect me to buy she said it before and nothing happened? Also, expect me to buy that she said nothing about being AN when called "Tatiana?" Nope, AA never said anything about being a GD until after Clara P. There are only two things that could have happened- either the story is totally fabricated, or the date was changed, either intentionally or through mixup. People do not usually keep track of exact months. IF it happened, it was after Clara showed her the picture. If not HOW did she have the picture to show? It was Clara s and she made up the claim! See?!

The Nachtausgabe was the paper whose editor was paid twenty (or twentyfive) thousand Marks by Ernst von Hesse for the "unmasking" of AA. Therefore they changed the date of Thea Malinovski's story either wilfully or by mistake. But as you can see, any other date than fall 1921 would not be possible.

So you are saying the paper was paid off by Ernie too? Oh please! He sure paid off a lot of people according to you, and after the war he was not even well off. Talk about being desperate to discredit, you take this Evil Uncle Ernie payoff thing to outrageous extremes. The fact is, AA WAS FS and that is why the detectives found it to be true, and DNA backs it up. Sorry!

Yes, I can imagine. He turns your whole theory upside down, doesn't he. And he was a very intimate friend of Anastasia.

No, because he is the one who was bogus here.

She was not being "committed", only transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.

Yes she was. News stories at the time, and the recent one from The Hook, say she was in the psychiatric ward and the reason he kidnapped her was because he was afraid she would be committed. If she was not why did he steal her? She was deemed not able to care for herself, and he not able to care for her either. He was right wacky in the head himself!
note to mods: sorry about the quote tags, for some reason I am unable to type a forward slash or copy and paste. The last one was left from Chats post. Oh and apostrophes too, so I do not have those. If you think it looks bad fix them and I will try not to post until my issues are resolved. Thanks.

 

[ChatNoir]

YOU are missing the point, THIS INCIDENT NEVER OCCURED!

And how do you know? Were you there? The incident occured, according to court testimony from Thea Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz. Live with it.

Think- look how much hullabaloo came out after she made her claim.

No hullabaloo came out at all, the nurses were sworn to silence.

Expect me to buy she said it before and nothing happened?

I don't expect you to buy anything.

Also, expect me to buy that she said nothing about being AN when called "Tatiana?"

She already did.

Nope, AA never said anything about being a GD until after Clara P.

No, she said nothing more even AFTER Clara Peuthert.

There are only two things that could have happened- either the story is totally fabricated, or the date was changed, either intentionally or through mixup.

The date was changed by the Nachtausgabe. Thus the letter to Kurt Pastenaci from Thea Malinovsky.

People do not usually keep track of exact months.

Maybe not, but companies do.

IF it happened, it was after Clara showed her the picture.

It happened months before Clara Peuthert was committed.

If not HOW did she have the picture to show? It was Clara s and she made up the claim! See?!

The photo was from an old Berliner Illustrierte.

So you are saying the paper was paid off by Ernie too?

To the Editor, Die Tägliche Rundschau,
Berlin, No. 66, Bülowstrasse
The Duchess Olga von Leuchtenberg and Duke George von Leuchtenberg have charged me, as their legal representative, to impart to you the following information in the matter of "Anastasia."
Dr. Fritz Lucke, during his visit to Schloss Seeon at the beginning of April, 1927, mentioned, in the course of conversation with Her Serene Highness the Duchess fon Leuchtenberg, that the firm of Scherl had received from the Grand Duke of Hesse, for investigations into the "Anastasia" affair, the sum of 20,000 marks (or 25,000 marks: the Duchess is not quite sure which of the two sums was mentioned, but one of these two sums was named).
The Duchess von Leuchtenberg informed her husband of this on the same day, whereupon the Duke von Leuchtenberg asked Dr. Lucke in conversation, "So the Grand Duke has given the firm of Scherl 20,000 marks (25,000 marks)? " To which Dr. Fritz Lucke assented.
You are requested to address to me any further inquiries which may be necessesary.
Yours respectfully,
SPENGRUBER
Solicitor

(As the Duke von Leuchtenberg told the editor, in amplification of this, a longer conversation on this subject took place, in which Miss Agnes Wasserschleben, who was the invalid's nurse at that time, also took part. She has declared her readiness, in writing, to swear to the above-mentioned fact.)

Oh please! He sure paid off a lot of people according to you, and after the war he was not even well off.

Not according to me, but to witnesses who were there.

Talk about being desperate to discredit, you take this Evil Uncle Ernie payoff thing to outrageous extremes.

As you can see, the payoffs were real. Remember, Doris Wingender got 1500 marks for her little part in the drama.

The fact is, AA WAS FS and that is why the detectives found it to be true, and DNA backs it up. Sorry!

And lots of other evidence does not back it up.

No, because he is the one who was bogus here.

Sorry, but somehow I trust Tatiana and Gleb Botkin more than a DNA from a putative source.

Yes she was. News stories at the time, and the recent one from The Hook, say she was in the psychiatric ward and the reason he kidnapped her was because he was afraid she would be committed.

Maybe he was, but the truth is: She was not found to have any mental defects.

If she was not why did he steal her? She was deemed not able to care for herself, and he not able to care for her either. He was right wacky in the head himself!

Not able to care for yourself does not mean that you are insane.

 

[ChatNoir]

How did he know that the bunion in Anna Anderson was hereditary? I've been looking on all sorts of websites (I'm drawing the line at spending large amounts of money on a book on foot disorders), and nowhere have I found a statement that severe hallux valgus and congenital hallux valgus are the same thing. The word of one doctor who wasn't a specialist in foot diseases really doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Take a look at the photo of her foot in James Lovell's book and then tell me this is a garden variety bunion. We are talking about a nineteen old girl here, not some old woman who had her whole life to get herself bunions.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And how do you know? Were you there? The incident occured, according to court testimony from Thea Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz. Live with it.

Were YOU there? A lot of people gave testimony against AA, too, do you believe that? Of course not! And don't forget, in Germany you don't have to swear an oath unless you want to, making it more difficult to prove perjury, and increasing the chances of untrue testimonies. A lot of people said a lot of things, but now that we know for sure she wasn't AN, we can figure out which ones make sense and which ones don't. I have told you before, I'm not going to argue with you over this silly nurse story, yet you keep dragging it up. It had the wrong date on it and cannot be proven, and is contradictory to the entire claim. You have nothing.

No hullabaloo came out at all, the nurses were sworn to silence.

Oh come on.

She already did.

No she didn't.

No, she said nothing more even AFTER Clara Peuthert.

Don't you think if someone called her Tatiana, and had people coming to see her as Tatiana, and she was really Anastasia, that she'd just say, no, that's my sister, I'm Anastasia. No, she just hid under the sheets and hoped people would buy the story. She probably didn't even know the name "Anastasia" until after she was pronounced too short to be Tatiana and had to switch to, what do you know, the only sister who shared her height! Remember how it happened, Von Kliest gave her the paper with all the names on it and she x'd out all of them but Anastasia. This was the first time she ever claimed to be Anastasia.

The date was changed by the Nachtausgabe. Thus the letter to Kurt Pastenaci from Thea Malinovsky.

This is a fact you cannot prove! You are accusing the newpaper of wrongdoing, yet you have no proof! This is just what you want to think. The real story is, there was no confession, and the nurse got her dates mixed up as to when she worked there and when the claim started. Then somebody said, oops, look, you have to change that to predate her "Tatiana" claim, so she tried to blame it on the newspaper. She should be ashamed.

Maybe not, but companies do.

But she was going by her own memory and got it wrong. Hey, I have a friend who quit her job in 1983 to stay home with her kids and they were never left with a sitter again, yet she still claims she left her daughter, born in 1984, with the same sitter her son had stayed with. This never happened, and she got her dates mixed up. It happens.

It happened months before Clara Peuthert was committed.

It didn't happen at all, if Clara wasn't there, the papers wouldn't have been, since they were hers.

The photo was from an old Berliner Illustrierte.

Of course! The one CLARA gave her. She didn't have them, or know anything about the Russian royals, before Clara came. This is a major blunder for the AA side.

As you can see, the payoffs were real. Remember, Doris Wingender got 1500 marks for her little part in the drama.

None of this proves anyone was paid to LIE. Even today, people get money for private investigations, like the one to find AA was FS, and people also get money for telling stories of famous people to ET and tabloids. This does NOT make their stories lies.

And lots of other evidence does not back it up.

Then we are back to the only hard evidence we have, DNA.

Sorry, but somehow I trust Tatiana and Gleb Botkin more than a DNA from a putative source.

Of course, since they said what you wanted to hear. But their involvement is more than suspect, and until you can PROVE- not speculate- the sample wasn't AA's, you have nothing.

Maybe he was, but the truth is: She was not found to have any mental defects.

The woman was in and out of asylums all her life. This doesn't happen to people without mental problems. FS was declared insane, and her behavior as AA did nothing to disprove this. Pretending to be a dead princess alone is pathological, on top of all her other actions and tirades and living conditions, not to mention the suicide attempt.

Not able to care for yourself does not mean that you are insane.

But she was in the PSYCHIATRIC ward! Again, if he wasn't afraid of her being committed, why did he steal her? (and bribe a nurse $1500 to let him sneak her out?)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Actually we were talking about a 23 year old girl who had been working on her feet in factories, breweries and asparagus fields for 6 years. It's very likely she could have developed the bunions from being on her feet long periods of time in bad shoes.

This would be another reason her family didn't know about the bunions, she didn't have them when she was at home, and what brother goes around looking at his sister's bare feet anyway? The word of your ONE doctor (who was likely just trying to help AA) does not counteract the fact that nothing now, in more thorough and modern times, can be found to prove what he said.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

So far, I believe the people who have not been caught in telling direct lies. If you can catch them, I will definitely reassess their reliability.

A few weeks ago, there was a long discussion on your accusations against Gilliard, and in the end, there was no proof he actually lied about anything. This is just your story.

 

[ChatNoir]

A few weeks ago, there was a long discussion on your accusations against Gilliard, and in the end, there was no proof he actually lied about anything. This is just your story.

Gilliard said that Anastasia "knew no German". We know that was a lie, he himself scheduled her and her sisters for German lessons as late as Tobolsk.
He said, when AA described the Malachite room, that there was no such room in the Tsar's palace.
He wrote Tatiana Botkin that "neither my wife, nor I, could find any likeness between AA and AN after our visit to Berlin." This was after Shura had expressed her belief that "this is Anastasia's body". After she had said about the perfume ritual that "this is exactly what AN used to do". After Gilliard himself had referred to the patient as The Grand Duchess Anastasia. After he and his wife had left Berlin "without being able to say that she is NOT the Grand Duchess."
Do you want more?

 

[ChatNoir]

Actually we were talking about a 23 year old girl who had been working on her feet in factories, breweries and asparagus fields for 6 years. It's very likely she could have developed the bunions from being on her feet long periods of time in bad shoes.

So her toe "bent over in the middle, forming a bunion" from a season planting asparagus or some months in a bottle washing factory or working as a waitress?

This would be another reason her family didn't know about the bunions, she didn't have them when she was at home, and what brother goes around looking at his sister's bare feet anyway? The word of your ONE doctor (who was likely just trying to help AA) does not counteract the fact that nothing now, in more thorough and modern times, can be found to prove what he said.

It was actually the word of two doctors. And it was not only Felix who attested to her feet, but also her mother and sister Gertrude who lived with FS for some time in Berlin.

 

[tsarskoe]

With regards to AA's mental health. Certainly she was considered very volatile by many of her own supporters, which they attributed to her traumatic experiences etc. Her opponents point out that she went on many tirades, especially in the mid to late 1920's. On her New York balcony she was reported to have run about nude during at least one of these bouts, while on another she trod over one of her beloved birds and went into hysterics.

Supporter and care tender Harriet von Ratlef Keilmann who willingly suffered many of AA's ill tempered remarks and outbursts wrote in frustration: "She's either crazy or truly wicked" (Kurth, 132)

Ambassador Zhale after reading a report from Dr. Eitel cabled to Serge Botkin "Invalid's (AA) mental state is alarming" (Kurth,155)

AA mentally stability certainly seems questionable-at least at certain times in her life. Regardless of the reason she did suffer from mood instability. Without a doubt she suffered from paranoia (Again why is another matter altogether). She was constantly claiming that she was being poisoned etc. (Kurth, 196)

 

[ChatNoir]

Were YOU there? A lot of people gave testimony against AA, too, do you believe that?

Yes, I do believe what they said until I see otherwise. And so far, I have seen no testimony that contradicts that of Thea Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz.

Of course not! And don't forget, in Germany you don't have to swear an oath unless you want to, making it more difficult to prove perjury, and increasing the chances of untrue testimonies.

That was up to the judges to decide. And we know for sure that Gerda Kleist and Doris Wingender both refused to take the oath.

A lot of people said a lot of things, but now that we know for sure she wasn't AN, we can figure out which ones make sense and which ones don't.

If we had known for sure, we would not have had this discussion.

I have told you before, I'm not going to argue with you over this silly nurse story, yet you keep dragging it up.

And why should I not "drag it up"? It is as much part of the story than any other testimony.

It had the wrong date on it and cannot be proven, and is contradictory to the entire claim. You have nothing.

No, it did not have the wrong date on it from the beginning. The Nachtausgabe was the one to change the date to fall of 1922, a time when nurse Malinovsky and AA had no contact. Therefore, nurse Malinovsky's story is pretty watertight as to what year it was.

Don't you think if someone called her Tatiana, and had people coming to see her as Tatiana, and she was really Anastasia, that she'd just say, no, that's my sister, I'm Anastasia. No, she just hid under the sheets and hoped people would buy the story.

She was terrified of being recognized and send back to Russia.

She probably didn't even know the name "Anastasia" until after she was pronounced too short to be Tatiana and had to switch to, what do you know, the only sister who shared her height!

And how did she know how tall Anastasia was??

Remember how it happened, Von Kliest gave her the paper with all the names on it and she x'd out all of them but Anastasia. This was the first time she ever claimed to be Anastasia.

It was not Arthur von Kleist who gave her the paper, it was Captain von Schwabe.

This is a fact you cannot prove! You are accusing the newpaper of wrongdoing, yet you have no proof!

Yes, I actually do have proof. In fall of 1922 AA and Thea Malinovsky had no contact, AA had left Dalldorf and was living with Clara Peuthert. This seems to be difficult to understand for you.

This is just what you want to think. The real story is, there was no confession, and the nurse got her dates mixed up as to when she worked there and when the claim started. Then somebody said, oops, look, you have to change that to predate her "Tatiana" claim, so she tried to blame it on the newspaper. She should be ashamed.

I think you should be ashamed for so desperately trying to change a testimony that does not fit in with your beliefs.

But she was going by her own memory and got it wrong. Hey, I have a friend who quit her job in 1983 to stay home with her kids and they were never left with a sitter again, yet she still claims she left her daughter, born in 1984, with the same sitter her son had stayed with. This never happened, and she got her dates mixed up. It happens.

Remember that the protocols from Dalldorf were presented to the court, and the hiring date for Thea Malinovsky could easily be checked.

It didn't happen at all, if Clara wasn't there, the papers wouldn't have been, since they were hers.

What on earth do you mean? AA herself showed an old photo of the IF to Bertha Waltz who saw a likeness between AA and the Tsar's youngest daughter. And this was long before Clara Marie Peuthert made her entrance into history.

Of course! The one CLARA gave her. She didn't have them, or know anything about the Russian royals, before Clara came. This is a major blunder for the AA side.

Again, you are totally out to lunch. The nurses were impressed how well informed she was about the Royal families of Europe, and she even talked about the Crown Prince as if she knew him personally.

None of this proves anyone was paid to LIE. Even today, people get money for private investigations, like the one to find AA was FS, and people also get money for telling stories of famous people to ET and tabloids. This does NOT make their stories lies.

That is true. But nevertheless, both the Nachtausgabe, Knopf and Wingender were handsomely paid by Darmstadt. Funny that the Duke of Hesse wanted to spend that much money on a mere impostor.

Then we are back to the only hard evidence we have, DNA.

And even DNA has not stopped this discussion.

Of course, since they said what you wanted to hear. But their involvement is more than suspect, and until you can PROVE- not speculate- the sample wasn't AA's, you have nothing.

And in the meantime it is perfectly ok for you to discard any part of the evidence that you don't like.
Let's look at what Tatiana Botkin wrote Grand Duchess Olga on August 30th, 1926:
"....At first glance I was struck by the face's resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana's; the whole manner and movements seemed that of the two eldest Grand Duchesses. But on that evening I only saw her fleetingly, and did not meet her and talk to her till the next day.
Her voice and look were enough for me to recognise her as the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaievna. There cannot be another being so much like her. I know that Your Imperial Highness saw the so-called "unknown patient," i.e. the Grand Duchess Anastasia, in such a dreadful physical and mental condition that you were unable to recognise her; and I am convinced that if you were now to see her again, you would recognise her just as I have done. I have been living in the same building with her for a week now, and every day I discover more and more of her former features. The first evening she also recognised me from a distance as a familiar face, but could not remember who I was. Then next day when we met again, she had remembered this too..."

Actually, when AA saw Tatiana and her aunt from a distance, she said to Osten-Sacken: The young lady's papa was surely with my papa.

The woman was in and out of asylums all her life. This doesn't happen to people without mental problems.

No, she was not in and out of asylums all her life. She was placed at Dalldorf because the police and doctors did not know what to do with her. But she was not adjudged insane, only depressed. Later, in Amerika, she was sent to Four Winds Sanatorium without being seen by a doctor. And when she ended up at Ilten, she was told that she was free to go on the second day.

FS was declared insane,

And AA was NEVER declared insane.

and her behavior as AA did nothing to disprove this. Pretending to be a dead princess alone is pathological, on top of all her other actions and tirades and living conditions, not to mention the suicide attempt.

Pretending? Not according to the Botkins, Alex Volkov, Grand Duke Andrew, Lili Dehn, Maria Rasputin, Xenia Leeds etc etc.

But she was in the PSYCHIATRIC ward!

Yes, dear, for observation.

Again, if he wasn't afraid of her being committed, why did he steal her? (and bribe a nurse $1500 to let him sneak her out?)

I don't think we are discussing Jack Manahan here.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Parts from the Hook article, more about her weirdness and paranoia:

The Hook - COVER- Jack & Anna: Remembering the czar of Charlottesville eccentrics

Anastasia believed the KGB wanted to kill her, and among other weird aversions, she would not eat from anything metal. Which explains why their battered old station wagon was always full of empty Styrofoam trays.

During competency hearings for Anna in 1983, the Daily Progress reported, Jack testified that Anna did not like strangers and believed that artificially heated houses spread germs and disease.
Even though Jack was well off on paper, he didn't seem to have much cash. So he would drag pieces of wood-- from limbs to whole trees-- into the house and feed them into the fireplace.

But wood wasn't all that was burned there. The neighbor-- like a young man who testified at a later trial-- reported that if one of the 20-plus cats died, Anastasia cremated it in the fireplace.

As she grew older in Charlottesville and was contending with severe arthritis and anemia on top of what appeared to be mental problems, she recounted a new version of the story of her family's survival and her own miraculous escape. Each member of the family had doubles, she said, and they were the ones executed in 1918.
"Her story, even her champions concede, is made less believable and appealing by her obstinacy, contradictory evidence, and paranoia," wrote the late Libby Wilson (Elizabeth Zintl Wilson) in a front page Progress article in 1983.

Yes, dear, for observation.

No, her court appointed guardian had her put in:

That year, Anna's condition had worsened such that in October, when both of the Manahans were found suffering from Rocky Mountain spotted fever in the living room of the University Circle house, a Charlottesville judge appointed a legal guardian for her, and he had her admitted to the University's Blue Ridge Hospital psychiatric ward. Jack was able to take care of himself but not her.

I don't think we are discussing Jack Manahan here.

Then, on Tuesday, November 29, 1983, the story of Jack and Anna took a bizarre turn: Jack abducted her from the facility.
Once again, the story of a missing princess roiled the media and rekindled interest in the Anastasia legend. "Authorities stymied in search for Manahans," read one Progress headline. Three days later, Anna and Jack were found living in the beat-up blue station wagon parked in front of an abandoned Amherst farmhouse screened from Route 29 by trees.
The station wagon had broken down, and Jack had been walking back and forth between the car and Pappy's restaurant in Amherst where people had become suspicious and called the police. Even though it was December, the deputy who drove them back to Charlottesville said he had to keep the windows open because of the stench-- the enfeebled Anna had not had the use of a bathroom. Jack said he abducted her because he was afraid she would be stuck in a mental institution. A source alleges that Jack paid an attendant at the hospital $1,500 for assistance in spiriting his wife away.

So if her own husband was afraid she'd be put in a mental institution, he must have thought there was good reason she would be. He lived with her every day, and he was not the most sane person himself.