Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Anna was Franziska]

No, he is not. Prince Frederick von Saxe Altenburg is the source.

Yes, this is right, I made a mistake, however, it makes little difference since it's still just a quote from a big supporter and it cannot be proven Irene said it. The letter you post claiming Irene was 'upset' is simply stating she and her husband had made up her mind AA was not AN and did not want to be bothered with the matter anymore. Anything else you read into it is pure speculation on your part.

I cannot find any connection with Peter Vanesis and NOVA. As far as I know, he was contacted by film maker Julian Knott to undertake an analysis of AA's ears and compare them to AA. He and and a team of four other scientists, each working in isolation, analyzed the pictures of AA and AN. 4 of them came to the conclusion that they were 100% certain that the photos depicted the same person. The 5th colleague failed to reach 100% of certainty.

Yes, but I do believe the Vanesis team did the NOVA ear exams. Also NO ONE said anything about it proving they were the same person. Additionally, you still do not explain why the comment in "Tsar" claims that FACIAL tests proved AA was AN when the 1990's face tests, by Oxlee, said she was FS, and why you claim tests were redone in the US and showed 'with certainty AA was AN' This isn't true, no one said AA was AN, the face tests went against her, and no tests were redone in the US. You have not answered those descrepencies. If you cannot, just admit it was an error. Otherwise, please produce proof.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And see it compared with photographs of AA taken just a few years later. AA commented, several years after this initial photo, when looking at a photograph of Anastasia taken in Siberia that she still styled her hair the same as she had before her "escape". This confirms that her hairstyle had not altered at least from the time when the original mug shot was taken. And thus the photo is not reversed and that is indeed her right ear.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/hair.jpg

That's true AA's hairstyle had not changed (also same one she wore as FS) but she made a blunder claiming to have the same hairdo as before her "escape" since the real AN had short hair due to her head being shaved the year before. In the last two pictures of AN you can see she had short hair with bangs, nothing like AA's long, side parted, fringeless bun look. Even later when AA cut her hair she still wore it side parted and with no bangs, making her look exactly the same as she did with it long and up and nothing like the real AN. (but just like FS!)

Tobolsk

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/sideview.jpg

Leaving for Ekaterinburg, spring 1918. Sophie B. wrote in her book "Left Behind" 'all of the Grand Duchesses had bobbed hair."

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/AnastasiaRus.jpg

Here is the photograph of Maria which was mistook to be Anastasia in the ear comparison. Note the lack of bangs, which Anastasia wore unlike her sister Maria. See the photo below this one comparing this photo to one of Maria (Who stands to the far right)- note the similarity of profile, hair style and hairline- note Anastasia with her typical bangs on the far left.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/maria.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/atm.jpg

Maria isn't wearing any fringes in the photo, she has her hair halfway back in a bow.

Exactly, Maria's hair is pulled back in a bow. She may have a tiny bit of stray 'baby hairs' sticking out but it's not cut bangs/fringe like AN had.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, Maria had baby hairs near her ears and on the edges of her hairline. That photo of Anastasia in spring of 1918, it's acutally her real hair that grown back slightly past shoulder length. It was long enough to put back up. Anastasia always wore bangs, even in Yakeringburg. But, AA's hair was never in bangs her headline looks completely different from Anastasia. The photo of FS, AA's hair looks just like hers. The same exact style.

 

[ChatNoir]

Maria isn't wearing any fringes in the photo, she has her hair halfway back in a bow.

Yes, by a closer look, I see that you are right.
In the video with Dr. Furtmayr, this photo is shown before a photo of AA's ear. I realize now that these two photos were taken from James Lovell's book, where he labels the photo of Maria as from The Furtmayr Collection. The photo is actually from the Beinecke Library at Yale. The photo that Furtmayr used, is the one you see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2MKUu3fVxQ&feature=related
when you stop the video at 3:10.
Mystery solved.
As for the inverted photo of AA, Peter Kurth states in his book that Furtmayr used a photo taken of AA at Dalldorf. He says nothing about a police mugshot. Maybe Tsarskoe could provide further proof here.

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, this is right, I made a mistake, however, it makes little difference since it's still just a quote from a big supporter and it cannot be proven Irene said it. The letter you post claiming Irene was 'upset' is simply stating she and her husband had made up her mind AA was not AN and did not want to be bothered with the matter anymore. Anything else you read into it is pure speculation on your part.

Sorry to tell you this, but I am not at all speculating on this, just reporting what Prince Friederich said.

Yes, but I do believe the Vanesis team did the NOVA ear exams.

Vanesis did this for an English program. Nova was produced in Boston.

Also NO ONE said anything about it proving they were the same person.

As I stated earlier, 5 scientists compared photos. 4 of them came to the conclusion that the identification of AA as AN was a 100% certain, the 5th did not come to that result.

Additionally, you still do not explain why the comment in "Tsar" claims that FACIAL tests proved AA was AN when the 1990's face tests, by Oxlee, said she was FS, and why you claim tests were redone in the US and showed 'with certainty AA was AN' This isn't true, no one said AA was AN, the face tests went against her, and no tests were redone in the US. You have not answered those descrepencies. If you cannot, just admit it was an error. Otherwise, please produce proof.

I think you should ask Peter Kurth about this.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

ChatNoir, is this the photo you're talking about?
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Anastasia%20Nikolaevna/Anastziepe.jpg
The photo you posted of Maria in the classroom is from the online Yale Romanov albums. NOVA is a program from PBS.

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, that's the one. Thank you.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Sorry to tell you this, but I am not at all speculating on this, just reporting what Prince Friederich said.

We cannot prove she said what he claimed, especially since it contradicts her signed statement. What I was talking about you speculating on was that letter you posted once where her husband asked Von Kliest to stop bothering them since they'd already made up their minds. There was nothing in there to imply Irene was upset or unsure, yet you allege that.

Vanesis did this for an English program. Nova was produced in Boston.

Then maybe "English program" is yet another inaccuracy in the statement, because Vanesis did do the ear comparisons on NOVA (which seemed to use both Brit and US content)

As I stated earlier, 5 scientists compared photos. 4 of them came to the conclusion that the identification of AA as AN was a 100% certain, the 5th did not come to that result.

No, it is true 4 of 5 said the ears matched, (if it was even hers) but no one said it meant she was AN, and certainly not 'with certainty.'

I think you should ask Peter Kurth about this.

Okay! Consider him asked. I await his response.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

from the translations again, I just noticed two more glaring things that have not been brought to light before:

According to statements by Dr Graede who had cared for her during this time, stated that there were some lesions on the body of the patient, but they all had (been caused by) tuberculosis of the bone and not in any case could be caused by rifle butts or of a bayonet.

SO! We have a doctor, by name (Graede) who says some of the scars were lesions and not wounds, yet you never see him or his comments mentioned by AA supporters, apparently because of their negative nature to her story.

Here's another doozy/clunker:

she declared to him that she had a son and "that one could always recognize this child thanks to the linens he wears with Imperial crowns and a medallion." which she had left to him.


AH! So now the 'little bastard that no one would recognize' had royal medalions? When did this part leave the story? Probably when she realized something like that would not go unnoticed, and she (and/or some of her supporters) decided it would be better the more anonymous and lost he would seem!

It's almost hilarious how many times her story changed versions. Starting with the more wild versions she and Clara came up with at the asylum, then the parts changed or added with Von Kliest, to the final copy perfected by professional writer Rathlef, who apparently sorted out all the junk and more sensationa/unbelievable stuff to create a more (supposedly) realistic and sympathetic version- the one she used henceforth, and the one repeated by her supporters to this day. However, finding the old original parts and seeing how silly they were only casts far more doubt on the authenticity of the whole story than its own unrealistic absurdity.

Very interesting:

Nevertheless, all the attempts by Baron Kleist to identify the unknown one remained unsuccessful. Among numerous persons who came to see her, none of them recognized her as the Tsar's daughter. Mrs. Zenaïde Tolstoii who at first had taken her for the Grand Duchess Tatiana, recounted her error in a letter she addressed to Baron Kleist on August 7, 1922.]

SO! This is what I thought. Many people came to see her, not just the few we know by name, and NONE of them thought she was AN! Then Zina Tolstoii, who had identified her as "Tatiana" recanted her 'error' and accepted her as "Anastasia"! Clearly, the woman did not know either girl very well or this wouldn't have occured, since the two sisters didn't look alike.

 

[ChatNoir]

We cannot prove she said what he claimed, especially since it contradicts her signed statement. What I was talking about you speculating on was that letter you posted once where her husband asked Von Kliest to stop bothering them since they'd already made up their minds. There was nothing in there to imply Irene was upset or unsure, yet you allege that.

I allege nothing. From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson": Suddenly the Princess burst into tears. Pacing the floor, wringing her hands, she exclaimed in real anguish, "She is similar, she is similar, but what does that mean if it is not she?" (Interview with Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg; in FOT, 235.)
The whole affair had upset Irene "so terribly," Oscar reported, that her husband, Prince Henry, had forbidden Anastasia as a topic of conversation in the house. (Lillian Zahle to Maria Debagory, January 1, 1927, BA.)

Then maybe "English program" is yet another inaccuracy in the statement, because Vanesis did do the ear comparisons on NOVA (which seemed to use both Brit and US content)

We may be talking about two different programs here.

No, it is true 4 of 5 said the ears matched, (if it was even hers) but no one said it meant she was AN, and certainly not 'with certainty.'

You better be prepared to prove this.

Okay! Consider him asked. I await his response.

When did you call him?

 

[ChatNoir]

The only doctor I can find who treated AA at the Kleist's apartment, was dr. Schiler.
As for Baron Kleist's narrative, AA's indignation knew no limit when she heard about the Baron's "lies". So much for that.

 

[Russophile]

When did you call him?

I talked to him today Chat and he didn't indicate any call from anybody.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

It actually pains me to face the facts--well, the DNA results. I travelled to Ekaterinburg in 1997 on the 79th anniversary of the family's massacre. At that time only 9 of the 11 bodies had been found and I felt sure Anastasia had escaped. I was allowed to view the remains in the city morgue and having already seen photos and video of the remains I was sure her skull wasn't there. .

Susana, why were you allowed to review the remains? Were you there in an official capacity of some kind? One of things that has always bothered me about both these remains and the latest find is the way so many people have been allowed to view and even handle the bones.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

!

I allege nothing. From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson": Suddenly the Princess burst into tears. Pacing the floor, wringing her hands, she exclaimed in real anguish, "She is similar, she is similar, but what does that mean if it is not she?" (Interview with Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg; in FOT, 235.)

As I said, this is HIS word, he was a supporter, and eccentric, and it did not come directly from her, therefore it's not provable.

The whole affair had upset Irene "so terribly," Oscar reported, that her husband, Prince Henry, had forbidden Anastasia as a topic of conversation in the house. (Lillian Zahle to Maria Debagory, January 1, 1927, BA.)

Again, second/third hand gossip that may not be true. You should also consider if she was upset, it was due to some faker pretending to be her dead niece. You disregard the grief and agony of Irene, Ernie and Olga A. who all lost 2 siblings and their nieces and nephew to the revolution.

We may be talking about two different programs here.

But there is no other program! Unless you can name it and give us a link and tell us who was on it, when it aired, the name of it, or least proof of its existence! This is what I've been saying all along- there was only one show, NOVA, and the comment misrepresents what was said in it. If you think there's another show, I'm waiting for proof.

You better be prepared to prove this.

WATCH THE SHOW!!!

When did you call him?

He obviously reads the forum.

 

[ChatNoir]

My goodness, you are certainly working yourself into a huff, aren't you.
But I don't watch much British TV.
And you certainly don't believe AA's supporters, but you swear to every word Ian Vorres writes. Interesting, ain't it.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Again, second/third hand gossip that may not be true. You should also consider if she was upset, it was due to some faker pretending to be her dead niece. You disregard the grief and agony of Irene, Ernie and Olga A. who all lost 2 siblings and their nieces and nephew to the revolution.

The whole thing is quite sad. I feel so sorry for what Olga, Ernest, and Irene had to deal with AA's nonsense and fraud life. AA made Irene, Olga and Ernest lives very miserable. It's bad enough to lose four nieces and one sister and brother. Pretending to be them is even worse. I completely agree what Felix Yussopov said here:

These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere.

 

[Russophile]

He obviously reads the forum.

Um, no, Peter doesn't. He's been engaged in other things lately.

 

[tsarskoe]

Clarifications

With regards to PBS's Nova program entitled Anastasia: Dead or Alive? Episode # 2209. They did indeed interview Peter Vanesis-though his study had previously been conducted and apparently already featured in the Julian Nott documentary. Vanesis uses a 5 point scale when comparing ears. A 5 being a perfect match between the two different of ears.

That being said, when comparing the left ear of the GD AN and the left ear of AA he gave their "inner" ear a perfect 5 match. He could not give the rest of an ear a 5 since they did not match exactly- he attributed this to the different tilts of the ear.

With regards to the comparison of right ear Vanesis gave the match between the ear of AN and AA a 4, which again he attributed to different angles at which the photographs were taken.

Interestingly the photo of AN's right ear used for Vanesis's study was one of the ears in Gilliard's book La Fausse Anastasie which I previously posted (The photo used was the ear on the far left in the link below). Therefore, if one were to argue that this is not Anastasia's real ear than Vanesis's study is flawed. The photograph on the right in the link below is from one of the more famous photos of Anastasia which can be seen in the link below this one
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/ear2.jpg

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs/romanov59d.jpg

 

[tsarskoe]

With regards to Furtmayr and the reversed ear. Below is a photograph of the group of AA's right ear used by Moritz Furtmayr in his study. Note the ear in the middle is the ear from the "mug shot" photo. (When I say mug shot I mean the series of two photographs taken of AA front the front and from the side-See the photo immediately below the group of ears) The ear in the top row in the center is then replicated below itself but in reverse format-which as I explained earlier: Furtmayr thought the negative of the original photograph had been reversed and thus the photo on the center bottom is how Furtmayr thought the image should appear. This image can be found at youtube IN SEARCH OF ANASTASIA video 3 of 3.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/ears3.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/mug.jpg

Once again Furtmayr did use the photograph of Maria (see below) in his ear study. Regardless of whether he used any other photographs of Anastasia, the point is that if Furtmayr could not tell the difference between Maria's and Anastasia's ears then his study is flawed since his premise is that no two human ears are identical. This image comes right from the segment of IN SEARCH OF ANASTASIA where they interviewed Furtmayr and show a series of photographs he used in his study.

 

[ChatNoir]

I went back and looked at the Youtube segment again, and I am almost sure that the profile comparison was done to the picture of Maria. Now, how could that come out with AA's exact measurements? Are we 100% sure that the photo is Maria and not Anastasia?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

That's defiantly Maria! 100% sure! I don't believe there's no way Furtymar can prove that AA's and Maria ears are identical.

Anastasia, the point is that if Furtmayr could not tell the difference between Maria's and Anastasia's ears then his study is flawed since his premise is that no two human ears are identical.

 

[Michael HR]

I was wondering is anyone planning a book on Anna Anderson showing all the evidence including the DNA arguments for or against? Perhaps this is a good idea as those who support AA can in one place bring all the arguments together and allow the reader to make up their mind one way or the other.

Just an idea.

Michael HR

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I don't think so, the AA supporters only write books that try to make you believe, and the ones who don't believe feel no proof is necessary because denying the DNA is as bad as believing in Santa or a flat earth. I do believe the other (non AA) side needs to be told, so that's what I put on my site. All you have to do is add that info with the AA fans' writings and you have what you want. However, really, giving any value to the AA side after all these DNA tests is really ridiculous and shouldn't even be seriously considered. It's not an opinion anymore once it's been officially disproven. If anyone 'makes up their mind' that AA is AN, they are a conspiracy theorist, end of story.

There are some that say Klier and Mingay's "Quest for Anastasia" presents both sides, but they were writing from the POV that the DNA tests were back and we knew AA was fake. You might try the book and see what you think.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

My goodness, you are certainly working yourself into a huff, aren't you.

I only want what you always ask for, proof, sources, real answers. A claim was made in a book, yet the details not only can't be proven, they can be disproven! Is there another TV show or is there not? I've never heard of one, and being an AA enthusiast surely you'd have found out about it regardless of its origins. There is nothing online or in any book about such a show, I still believe the show mentioned was NOVA and the statement is incorrect. If you cannot prove otherwise, then admit the statement from "Tsar" is indeed in error and do not quote it as truth again. You always say, it's important to stick to the facts and not let them get clouded by misinformation. That's what I'm asking for here in reference to this statement and alleged other TV show.

The whole thing is quite sad. I feel so sorry for what Olga, Ernest, and Irene had to deal with AA's nonsense and fraud life. AA made Irene, Olga and Ernest lives very miserable. It's bad enough to lose four nieces and one sister and brother. Pretending to be them is even worse. I completely agree what Felix Yussopov said here:

These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere.

I agree too!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

With regards to PBS's Nova program entitled Anastasia: Dead or Alive? Episode # 2209. They did indeed interview Peter Vanesis-

I found my copy and watched it last night. He said AA was the most likely candidate for a match with the ear used, but said nothing of her being AN or anything of 'certainty.'

I didn't know the show was on youtube, thanks for telling us. I hope now everyone will watch it for themselves.

though his study had previously been conducted and apparently already featured in the Julian Nott documentary.

What is this documentary, what was in it, and what were their conclusions? Is it on Youtube too?

 

[Warren]

Hi guys, just a reminder that copyright law covers photos, images and scans. If the original image was not first published prior to about 1920 then it may fall under US legal copyright protection and should only be presented in the Forums as a link to another website or hosting site.

Over recent weeks I've converted most of the images in question into links to the member's image-hosting site.
Please note that hotlinking to/from other websites is not permitted.

If there are any questions about picture posting and copyright please see this explanation or contact any of the TRF moderators.

Thanks for everyone's cooperation.

Warren
Russian Forums moderator

 

[ChatNoir]

I only want what you always ask for, proof, sources, real answers. A claim was made in a book, yet the details not only can't be proven, they can be disproven! Is there another TV show or is there not? I've never heard of one, and being an AA enthusiast surely you'd have found out about it regardless of its origins. There is nothing online or in any book about such a show, I still believe the show mentioned was NOVA and the statement is incorrect. If you cannot prove otherwise, then admit the statement from "Tsar" is indeed in error and do not quote it as truth again. You always say, it's important to stick to the facts and not let them get clouded by misinformation. That's what I'm asking for here in reference to this statement and alleged other TV show.

Go back and read Tsarskoe's clarification.

 

[ChatNoir]

That's defiantly Maria! 100% sure! I don't believe there's no way Furtymar can prove that AA's and Maria ears are identical.

I am not talking ears here, the ear on the alleged photo of Maria is too washed-out to make any comparison. I am talking about the profile comparison.

 

[ChatNoir]

The whole thing is quite sad. I feel so sorry for what Olga, Ernest, and Irene had to deal with AA's nonsense and fraud life. AA made Irene, Olga and Ernest lives very miserable.

Why? If they did not believe in her, why let it influence their lives? There certainly were enough impostors out there, but Anna Anderson was the only one they paid attention to. One wonders why.

 

[COUNTESS]

Because her supporters had more money to help finance her campaign. Also, people love to be duped. She was a good actress.